The Church Lobby

According to John’s vision in Revelation 7:9, heaven will be filled with people who are still recognized by their ethnicity (every nation, tribe, people, and language). So, if we want the church here and now to reflect that, Sunday mornings must stop being the most segregated time of the week.That’s the premise of Karl Vaters’ conversation with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones, the co-authors of In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, which Karl named as one of his best nonfiction books of the year for 2024.Jamaal and Timothy focus on what we can do to create a more kingdom-minded approach to ethnic diversity, while acknowledging that ethnic diversity is not the point of the church, but a byproduct of the gospel message.Links:In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture Bonus video3 Steps to Move Your Church Toward Multiethnic Generosity, with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul JonesOne of the habits (liturgies) that Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones suggest in their book, In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, is to help your church move toward multiethnic generosity.Karl Vaters talks with them as they suggest a simple plan to visit a faithful, gospel-driven church outside your own ethnicity or culture once every three months. Embrace this habit as an opportunity to learn from sisters and brothers in other cultures. And when you do, walk through these three steps:Consider your own preferencesVisit the other churchBe grateful for your preferences—and be willing to lay them down

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus changed everything. Not just for eternity, but for the world here and now.According to Glen Scrivener, the author of The Air We Breathe, How We All Came to Believe In Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality, most of what we now consider to be self-evident human values were not so evident or common before Jesus.In this conversation, Karl and Glen talk about:How so many principles that most people consider universal, are actually the result of the Christian worldviewWhy this goes unnoticed by people, Christians and non-Christians alikeWhy it’s important to regain this understandingWhat the values of the world looked like before the cross upended everythingHow a clear understanding of the first three chapters of Genesis is the foundation for all of itPodcast Links:Speak LifeBook: The Air We Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and EqualityBook: 3 2 1: The Story of God, the World and YouBonus SummaryHow Good Theology Became the Basis for Good Science, with Glen ScrivenerGood theology and good science are good friends. In this short conversation with Glen Scrivener, Karl Vaters asks him about the three legs upon which this reality sits.These three principles become clear when we have a better understanding of the first three chapters of the Bible:The freedom of GodThat humans can understand God’s waysTaking human fallibility into account

Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about what we can learn from those who are deconstructing their faith.This conversation is based on the content of Scot’s new book (co-written with Tommy Preson Phillips), Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ.This is a challenging book and a challenging conversation, especially if you are to the right of center theologically and politically (like Scot and Karl). But I encourage you not to write it off for those reasons.Scot makes the case, through personal observation and thorough statistics, that people who use a term like “deconstruction” are probably not leaving Jesus, but are usually trying to find a simpler, more genuine representation of him than what they’ve seen in many of our churches. Deconstructors are asking important questions and shining a light on issues we need to pay attention to. Links from this Episode:Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for ChristThe New Testament In ColorNick Crawley - Bible For LifeBonus Content Summary The Three Stages of DeconstructionFrom chapter 6 of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, Scot McKnight shares the three distinct steps most deconstructors go through (Liminality, Elimination, and Liberation), and what they mean.Knowing these phases can be very helpful for us, as church leaders, to be involved in the conversation with them. When we step into this space instead of running from it, we have the chance to learn, and to guide them as they seek to draw closer to Jesus.

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Lucas about starting your congregation on the road to spiritual maturity through increasing their Bible reading. Specifically, how reading the Bible at least four times a week is so powerful, it's been called "The Power of Four."Matt is the CEO of Our Daily Bread (known for their quarterly devotionals) and The Center for Bible Engagement.Karl and Matt talk about:What is The Power of Four?Why does reading the Bible 4+ times a week make such a difference in spiritual maturity?The importance of reading and hearing the Bible in churchHelpful ways to gauge spiritual maturityHow to use Power of Four to help a congregation become more matureLinks:Bible Engagement: A Key to Spiritual GrowthCenter for Bible EngagementA Non Anxious Presence by Mark SayersBonus Content SummaryA Congregational Survey to Help Track Your Congregation’s Spiritual Maturity, with Matt LucasHow do you know if your congregation is maturing? Tracking church attendance is not enough.Matt Lucas and the team at Our Daily Bread are creating a powerful new tool to help pastors and their congregations.In this Bonus Material, Karl Vaters talks with Matt as he shows us this new tool, explaining what it will do, how easy it will be, and how you’ll be able to use it to lead your congregation well.