Do You Even Lit?

Raymond Carver's Cathedral might be one of the most simple and beloved American short stories, but Benny is determined to overthink it anyway.

On meta-deception: before we dive in, Benny obsesses over “meta-deception” and feels betrayed by magicians.

On jealousy: is it OK for your wife to write intimate poetry about another man tenderly stroking her face? Also, what does it take to be a good host?

Moment of transcendence: what is the narrator transformed by drawing the cathedral, or is this just an over-interpreted moment in American fiction? We talk about sincerity, empathy, and seeing other people.

Full transcript for this episode at doyouevenlit.com enriched with links, ideas, authors, etc.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:07) benny mad at magicians using magic
(00:04:55) carver’s plain writing
(00:07:19) poetry not the first thing we pick up
(00:07:48) tribulations of being a good host
(00:12:46) getting reality from tv
(00:17:12) boundaries on friend zones
(00:20:41) dining in the dark
(00:26:42) winding down for the night
(00:28:24) describing cathedrals
(00:35:23) on gaining empathy
(00:38:02) what we get from cathedrals
(00:41:17) on still being a good host
(00:44:54) benny still not getting it
(00:49:20) next book announcement

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Ursula K. Le Guin's 1973 story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas has been discussed to death, but the boys have finally cracked the ONE TRUE reading. huddle in

Rich remembered this being a glorified trolley problem that would allow us to settle the question of 'who is the most utilitarian-brained of us all' but it's not! It's about politics, and capitalism, and bold utopian leaps!

On the real-world parallels: does western prosperity actually depend on the suffering of the global south? Is there a difference between culpability and moral luck? Is there such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism?

Fighting the hypothetical: Benny has largely solved moral philosophy and finds the story less compelling the second time around. Also, Omelas is not very revealing as a thought experiment. We talk about how thought experiments fail, and compare with Nozick's experience machine.

On those who walk away: morally serious dissenters, or virtue-signalling posers? Is Le Guin really so against incrementalism that she has set up the experiment so it's impossible? We manage to find an optimistic reading lurking in there too.

Plus: Why can't kids these days read good? We debate whether it's a moral panic, if the use of LLMs helps or hinders, and how fucking stupid you'd have to be to try and start a literature podcast in a post-literate society.

Full transcript available at doyouevenlit.com — you can sort all episodes by ideas, authors, and more.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:00) this is a running podcast now
(00:05:50) Impressions vs the first time we read the story
(00:09:30) synopsis: a utopian city with a dirty little secret
(00:17:50) FIGHTING THE HYPOTHETICAL
(00:25:00) The case against thought experiments: If magic was real, would you grant that magic was real?
(00:28:00) Is walking away a moral act or empty posturing
(00:30:42) Le Guin's true motive: socio-political critique or glorified trolley problem
(00:35:00) is Omelas actually an anarchist utopia?
(00:43:01) is there such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism
(00:52:28) moral luck vs. culpability (EA is good akshully)
(01:02:00) The stickiness of the Omelas story
(01:05:00) Eric T's listener mail: can kids still read good?
(01:18:00) on the stupidity of starting a lit podcast in a post-literate age
 

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NEXT ON THE READING LIST:

Cathedral — Raymond Carver

Middlemarch — George Eliot

Wrapping up our discussion of Philip Roth's American Pastoral, in which the Swede is finally reunited with his missing daughter. it's bleak.

On losing your daughter: Can you save people from themselves? Should the Swede have dragged Merry out by the hair? Did he do anything wrong, or is he torturing himself for nothing?

The American berserk: Was '60s counterculture violence a freak aberration, or just a manifestation of the undercurrent that lies beneath the pastoral dream? Is Roth an old man shaking his fist at clouds? Or is he making a clever point about the obliviousness of those who live behind white picket fences?

Plus: Roth vs Dostoevsky, in praise of blue-haired activist types, and the problem of assimilation.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:00) Roth vs Dostoevsky
(00:10:00) Merry's motivations and lack of interiority
(00:16:52) Coercing loved ones to save them from themselves
(00:23:53) Champagne socialists are good akshully
(00:26:20) Violence in america always has been meme
(00:40:25) Roth's pessimism about assimilation
(00:45:20) Roth's pessimism about knowing your fellow man
(00:55:10) next book(s) announcement

 

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We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.

 

NEXT ON THE READING LIST:

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas - Ursula K. Le Guin

Cathedral — Raymond Carver

The Swede was the poster boy for the American dream.

Football star. Marine. Marries a beauty queen. Inherits dad's glove factory and treats the workers like family. Buys the stone farmhouse in Old Rimrock, New Jersey. Loves his daughter unconditionally. Protests the Vietnam War in his own measured way, just to show her he's on her side.

Then his precious little girl blows up the local post office and kills a man.

"This says a lot about Society."—Philip Roth

In this episode, covering the first five chapters of Roth's Pullitzer prize-winning novel, we find ourselves a book club divided.

Rich hated the opening frame story. Nathan's over-interpretation of the Swede's every fart is written that way on purpose but that doesn't make it any less of a suffocating 80 pages to wade through. File under 'writers wanking themselves off about writing'.

meanwhile Ben is deeply moved. He defends the frame story and mounts a convincing case that it's doing real work on memory, regret, and mortality.

Cam is kind of on the fence but overall he likes the book. "I like the book."—Cam

Opinions will no doubt change as we move into the second half but there's one thing we can say for sure: Basketball was never like this, Skip.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:00) hot takes: mid-wit or masterpiece?
(00:03:35) synopsis and the Zuckerman frame story
(00:07:48) the Swede as WASP-adjacent golden boy
(00:13:59) is the American Dream ever not a fantasy
(00:17:21) Merry gets radicalised: a parent's worst nightmare
(00:25:2) Rich rant on Zuckerman/Roth's cloying line-by-line exegesis
(00:31:50) Benny's defence of the frame story
(00:36:18) would you go to your 50-year high school reunion?
(00:44:37) Woolf did it better tho

 

WRITE US:

We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.

 

NEXT ON THE READING LIST:

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas - Ursula K. Le Guin

Robert Louis Stevenson's 1886 novella The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde really gets the juices flowing. Rich tells on himself big time, we find out we're all faking our authentic selves, and Benny is forced to bite some weird philosophical bullets.

The Ring of Gyges: Are all men secretly depraved? How much bad stuff would you actually do if you had total anonymity? Rich says a lot; Benny is suspiciously optimistic.

A typology of evil: Teasing out the banality of evil vs sociopathic indifference vs pure sadism. Where does Hyde fit? How does someone develop a taste for cruelty? On the opponent process model, why serial killers escalate, and our porn viewing habits.

Virtue ethics vs utilitarian brain: Rich is losing faith in galaxy-brained consequentialist reasoning. Can you corrupt yourself by consuming bad things even if no one is harmed? On the Westworld problem, violent video games, and other gnarly thought experiments.

Incongruous f*ggots: do we feel like a unified self or a coalition of competing entities? Why does Cam hide his books when his uncle comes to visit? On code-switching and the different masks we wear.

CHAPTERS:

(00:00:00) Listener mail: Nicole and Stefan
(00:06:48) synopsis and the big twist
(00:16:25) The perfect crime
(00:21:53) Hyde's sordid pleasures
(00:24:16) the Ring of Gyges: are people good when no one's watching?
(00:29:43) A typology of evil
(00:38:49) Developing a taste for sin
(00:51:14) utilitarian brain vs virtue ethics
(01:05:34) Is there anything beneath the mask

 

WRITE US:

We love listener feedback. Send us a note at [email protected] to correct our hot takes, add your own, or ask a question.

 

NEXT ON THE READING LIST:

American Pastoral — Philip Roth