Sustain

• Episode 270: Ben Nickolls & Andrew Nesbitt on Ecosyste.ms

  Guests Ben Nickolls | Andrew Nesbitt Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard is joined by guests Ben Nickolls and Andrew Nesbitt to discuss the ecosyste.ms project. They explore how ecosyste.ms collects and analyzes metadata from various open-source projects to create a comprehensive database that can help improve funding allocation. The discussion covers the importance of funding the most critical open-source projects, the existing gaps in funding, and the partnership between ecosyste.ms and Open Source Collective to create funding algorithms that support entire ecosystems. They also talk about the challenges of maintaining data, reaching out to project maintainers, and the broader implications for the open-source community. Hit the download button now! [00:01:58] Andrew and Ben explain ecosyste.ms, what it does, and how it compares to Libraries.io. [00:04:59] Ecosyste.ms tracks metadata, not the packages themselves, and enriches data via dependency graphs, committers, issues, SBOMs, and more. [00:06:54] Andrew talks about finding 1,890 Git hosts and how many critical projects live outside GitHub. [00:08:37] There’s a conversation on metadata uses and SBOM parsing. [00:12:49] Richard inquires about the ecosystem.ms funds on their website which Andrew explains it’s a collaboration between Open Collective and ecosyste.ms. that algorithmically distributes funds to the most used, not most popular packages. [00:15:45] Ben shares how this is different from previous projects and brings up a past project, “Back Your Stack” and explains how ecosyste.ms is doing two things differently. [00:18:59] Ben explains how it supports payouts to other platforms and encourages maintainers to adopt funding YAML files for automation. Andrew touches on efficient outreach, payout management, and API usage (GraphQL). [00:25:36] Ben elaborates on how companies can fund ecosyste.ms (like Django) instead of curating their own lists and being inspired by Sentry’s work with the Open Source Pledge. [00:29:32] Andrew speaks about scaling and developer engagement and emphasizes their focus is on high-impact sustainability. [00:32:48] Richard asks, “Why does it matter?” Ben explains that most current funding goes to popular, not most used projects and ecosyste.ms aims to fix the gap with data backed funding, and he suggests use of open standards like 360Giving and Open Contracting Data. [00:35:46] Andrew shares his thoughts on funding the right projects by improving 1% of OSS, you uplift the quality of millions of dependent projects with healthier infrastructure, faster security updates, and more resilient software. [00:38:35] Find out where you can follow ecosyste.ms and the blog on the web. Quotes [00:11:18] “I call them interesting forks. If a fork is referenced by a package, it’ll get indexed.” [00:22:07] We’ve built a service that now moves like $25 million a year between OSS maintainers on OSC.” [00:33:23] “We don’t have enough information to make collective decisions about which projects, communities, maintainers, should receive more funding.” [00:34:23] “The NSF POSE Program has distributed hundreds of millions of dollars of funding to open source communities alone.” [00:35:47] “If you have ten, twenty thousand really critical open source projects, that actually isn’t unachievable to make those projects sustainable.” Spotlight [00:39:35] Ben’s spotlight is Jellyfin. [00:40:20] Andrew’s spotlight is zizmor. [00:42:21] Richard’s spotlight is The LaTeX Project. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Ben Nickolls LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamuk/) Andrew Nesbitt Website (https://nesbitt.io/) Andrew Nesbitt Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@andrewnez) Octobox (https://github.com/octobox) ecosyste.ms (https://ecosyste.ms/) ecosyste.ms Blog (https://blog.ecosyste.ms/) Open Source Collective (https://oscollective.org/) Open Source Collective Updates (https://opencollective.com/opensource/updates) Open Source Collective Contributions (https://opencollective.com/opensource) Open Source Collective Contributors (https://opencollective.com/open-source) Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) 24 Pull Requests (https://24pullrequests.com/) Libraries.io (https://libraries.io/) The penumbra of open source (EPJ Data Science) (https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-022-00345-7) FOSDEM ’25- Open source funding: you’re doing it wrong (Andrew and Ben) (https://fosdem.org/2025/schedule/event/fosdem-2025-5576-open-source-funding-you-re-doing-it-wrong/) Vue.js (https://vuejs.org/) thanks.dev (https://thanks.dev/home) StackAid (https://www.stackaid.us/) Back Your Stack (https://backyourstack.com/) NSF POSE (https://www.nsf.gov/funding/initiatives/pathways-enable-open-source-ecosystems) Django (https://www.djangoproject.com/) GitHub Sponsors (https://github.com/sponsors) Sustain Podcast-Episode 80: Emma Irwin and the Foss Fund Program (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/80) Sustain Podcast- 3 Episodes featuring Chad Whitacre (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/chad-whitacre) Sustain Podcast- Episode 218: Karthik Ram & James Howison on Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/218) Sustain Podcast-Episode 247: Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/247) Invest in Open Infrastructure (https://investinopen.org/) 360Giving (https://www.360giving.org/) Open Contracting Data Standard (https://standard.open-contracting.org/latest/en/) Jellyfin (https://opencollective.com/jellyfin) zizmor (https://github.com/zizmorcore/zizmor) The LaTeX Project (https://www.latex-project.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Andrew Nesbitt and Benjamin Nickolls.

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  44:26
• Episode 269: Marianne Bellotti & Greg Wilson on 10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job

  Guests Marianne Bellotti | Greg Wilson Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Marianne Bellotti, author of *Kill It with Fire, *and Greg Wilson, co-founder of the Carpentries, about what happens to your code when you leave your job and how to make sure it survives. They discuss their new paper, "10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job (https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.06484)," and share practical strategies for protecting, documenting, and sustaining code in open source, research, and civil service environments. Whether you're preparing for a job change or want to future-proof your work, this conversation offers real-world advice for developers and researchers alike. Hit the download button now! [00:03:04] Greg and Marianne talk about challenges in code sustainability. [00:05:46] Greg speaks about how scientists often prototype rather than build production quality code. [00:09:48] We start with Step 1 in the paper: “Consider your threat mode.” Greg explains the different plans needed for individual vs. systematic departures, Marianne speaks about the importance of understanding code lifecycle-some code has a “fruit fly” lifespan others a “tortoise” one, and Richard adds to think about reframe threat modeling around future usefulness. [00:15:53] There’s a discussion on Step 2: “Get sign-off on releasing it publicly.” [00:21:30] Greg discusses Step 3: “Choose an open license” and emphasizes to stick to well-known licenses (MIT, BSD), don’t write your own, and he shares a funny story. [00:25:29] Richard talks about Step 4: “Put your code somewhere safe” and shares to upload code to GitHub, Codeberg, OSF, Zenodo, etc. Greg suggest peer-to-peer methods like torrents could help long-term preservation and Marianne emphasizes the importance of verified identities when sharing. [00:29:21] Marianne introduces Step 5: “Document your code.” Greg shares that most documentation goes unread and LLMs could help mine useful documentation from conversation records and Marianne emphasizes to focus on “how to run it” first and tests are a part of your documentation. [00:35:17] Step 6: “Make your code reproducible.” Greg and Marianne discuss using tools like Docker, uv for Python lockfiles, etc., for dependency management. [00:36:23] Step 7: “Make your code citable” and Step 8: “Encourage community adoption.” Richard mentions to add a CITATION.cff file so others can cite your code and Greg mentions a great book he read that changed the way he viewed this called, Marketing for Scientists, by Marc Kuchner. [00:38:49] Step 9: “Write a succession or sunsetting plan.” Marianne shares to define success and failure criteria for projects explicitly. [00:40:36] Step 10: “Talk about what you’re doing.” Greg emphasizes to celebrate and grieve project endings properly and Richard encourages listeners to check out the paper, read it, and if you see something missing you can contribute back. [00:43:12] Fnal thoughts from Greg and Marianne: Organize collectively to protect science and code sustainability and find your team. Quotes [00:12:10] “Weapons begin as toys.” [00:14:09] “All code is throwaway code.” [00:27:34] “Sooner or later every library burns.” [00:29:44] “Most documentation is never read by anybody because it’s not answering the questions that you actually have.” [00:41:05] “Take some time to celebrate and to grieve.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Marianne Bellotti (Medium) (https://bellmar.medium.com/) Marianne Bellotti LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bellmar/) Greg Wilson GitHub (https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca) Greg Wilson LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca) “10 Quick tips for making your code last beyond your current job” (draft) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jk0R8VL8lq1-LIbW9D5qwCkvxfXEobP0-RqSYF-4Io4/edit#heading=h.2ijt9lezevm3) Kill It With Fire by Marianne Bellotti (https://nostarch.com/kill-it-fire) Marketing for Scientists: How to Shine in Tough Times by Marc J. Kuchner (https://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Scientists-Shine-Tough-Times/dp/1597269948) Codeberg (https://codeberg.org/) Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/) OSF (https://osf.io/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Greg Wilson and Marianne Bellotti.

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  44:16
• Episode 268: Maintainer Month 2025 with Dirkjan Ochtman on Sustaining Critical Rust Libraries

  Guest Dirkjan Ochtman Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special Maintainer Month episode of Sustain, host Richard speaks with Dirkjan Ochtman, a long-time open source contributor and Rust advocate. They dive deep into what it's like maintaining critical infrastructure libraries, the motivations behind taking over "abandonware," and how funding ecosystems like GitHub Sponsors and thanks.dev help sustain low-level dependencies. Dirkjan also reflects on how Rust’s design lends itself well to long-term maintainability and shares thoughts on the challenges of burnout, context switching, and ensuring project continuity. Hit the download button now! [00:01:33] Dirkjan explains how he chooses which projects he’s maintaining, being passionate about memory safety via Rust, and maintaining tools like Rustls, Hickory DNS, and Quinn. [00:03:14] Dirkjan describes his motivation for maintaining abandonware and sees it as providing value to the community. [00:04:23] ISRG funds Dirkjan’s work on memory-safe DNS and TLS libraires, and they are replacing C-based libraires with Rust equivalents. [00:05:33] Dirkjan uses thanks.dev to help fund maintainers through the full dependency graph and revenue is limited but promising. [00:08:06] Richard brings up Tidelift and Dirkjan mentions it’s not yielding results for Rust projects yet because the Rust ecosystem is smaller. [00:09:30] We hear Dirkjan’s journey into Rust, starting in Python but frustrated by lack of type safety and performance, and creating his own compiler before appreciating Rust’s complexity. [00:12:20] Dirkjan talks about his transition from Python to Rust. [00:13:39] Dirkjan uses PyO3 to create Python bindings for Rust libraries. [00:15:31] Richard wonders why projects become unmaintained and Dirkjan responds that people have life events, job changes, or shifting interests. [00:17:11] How are unmaintained projects flagged? Dirkjan uses the RustSec Advisory DB to detect projects with no active maintainers. [00:18:47] Dirkjan avoids burnout as a maintainer by keeping the scope narrow, only responds to PRs, doesn’t overcommit, and focuses on high-efficiency, low-effort maintenance. [00:19:51] Rust has a strong system, built-in unit tests, great CI support, and Dirkjan encourages atomic commits to simplify code review. [00:21:28] Dirkjan speaks about languages that are more maintainer safe. [00:22:18] Richard brings up attack vectors and the ‘left-pad incident.’ Dirkjan shares how he builds trust via his public GitHub record. [00:24:17] We hear Dirkjan’s offboarding and succession planning as he explains handing off projects like Askama and promoting multiple maintainers to reduce bus factor. [00:26:08] Dirkjan’s long-term vision for OSS sustainability is he hopes to move higher in the stack and wants to make high-quality software easier to build. [00:27:38] Dirkjan explains why he prefers to do asynchronous collaboration over pair programming. [00:28:52] Dirkjan discusses Rust’s long-term ecosystem stability. [00:31:09] Find out where you can follow Dirkjan on the web. Quotes [00:03:23] “You call it abandonware and I call it a dependency that has a million users.” [00:19:02] “[When I take on a project], I don’t take on the burden of proactively improving the project.” [00:19:11] “I will be there when someone submits a PR." [00:20:37] “I ask folks to make small changes: atomic commits.” Spotlight [00:31:37] Richard’s spotlight is Allan Day. [00:32:20] Dirkjan’s spotlight is Xilem. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Dirkjan Ochtman LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dochtman/?originalSubdomain=nl) Dirkjan Ochtman Blog (https://dirkjan.ochtman.nl/) Dirkjan Ochtman Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@djc) Dirkjan Ochtman GitHub (https://github.com/djc) Dirkjan Ochtman Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/djc.ochtman.nl) Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/) Rustls (https://github.com/rustls/rustls) Hickory DNS (https://github.com/hickory-dns/hickory-dns) Quinn (https://github.com/quinn-rs/quinn) Internet Security Research Group (ISRG) (https://www.abetterinternet.org/) Let’s Encrypt (https://letsencrypt.org/) Automatic Certificate Management Environment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Certificate_Management_Environment) PyO3 user guide (https://pyo3.rs/v0.15.1/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 108: Sarah Gran and Josh Aas: Sustainable Digital Infrastructure with Memory Safe Code (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/108) Sustain Podcast-Episode 148: Ali Nehzat of thanks.dev and OSS Funding (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/148) Tidelift (https://tidelift.com/) RustSec Advisory Database-GitHub (https://github.com/RustSec/advisory-db) Askama (https://docs.rs/askama/latest/askama/) Allan Day’s GNOME Blog (https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/) Xilem (https://xilem.dev/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Dirkjan Ochtman.

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  34:18
• Episode 267: Michelle Barker on the Research Software Alliance (ReSA)

  Guest Michelle Barker Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer welcomes Michelle Barker, Director of the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), for an in-depth conversation about the critical yet often overlooked role of research software in open science. Michelle shares her journey from sociologist to open science advocate, unpacking how ReSA fosters global collaboration to support software developed for research. Together, they explore what it means to build “social infrastructure” in the open source ecosystem, the challenges of aligning international stakeholders, and how ReSA is shaping the future of research through strategy, connection, and community-driven solutions. Press the download button now to hear more! [00:01:58] Michelle explains how she got involved in open science and open source software. [00:04:35] Why Research Software? Michelle shares that ReSA was founded to coordinate globally on research software, which lacked unified international representation unlike open data. [00:07:21] We hear about ReSA’s engagement strategy and the three main strategies: knowledge sharing, stakeholder collaboration, and governance evolution. [00:09:37] ReSA includes RSEs as one of many stakeholders and works broadly across funders, policymakers, infrastructure providers, and more. [00:10:26] Research software is defined as software developed within a research context to solve a research problem and most is open source but not all. [00:13:12] Richard asks about tracking engagement, and Michelle shares it’s hard to quantify outcomes, but standard metrics include newsletter subs, citations, and forum attendance. [00:15:08] Michelle explains the role of social infrastructure. [00:17:37] What’s hard about being a social infrastructure? Michelle talks about the challenge of how to motivate groups of people to work together. [00:19:52] Michelle shares her personal approach to networking: research, targeting key individuals, emotional engagement, and strategic planning for conferences. [00:24:35] A new strategy plan is rolling out and Michelle shares what’s different. [00:27:32] ReSA is working to establish research software as its own recognized field. [00:29:57] Michelle recognizes shared challenges of both open source and research sectors. The keys to success are spotlight wins and demonstrate value through supported infrastructure and recognized contributions. [00:30:40] Find out where you can find out more about ReSA. Spotlight [00:31:11] Richard’s spotlight is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). [00:31:48] Michelle’s spotlight is Softcite. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Michelle Barker LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledbarker/) Research Software Alliance (ReSA) (https://www.researchsoft.org/) ReSA LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/research-software-alliance/) ReSA Mastodon (https://fosstodon.org/@researchsoft) ReSA Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/researchsoftware.bsky.social) Sustain Podcast-Episode 264: Neil Chue Hong on the Software Sustainability Institute (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/264) USRSE’25: Philadelphia, PA Oct 6-8, 2025 (https://us-rse.org/) US-RSE (https://us-rse.org/) NOAA (https://www.noaa.gov/) Softcite (https://github.com/softcite/softcite_dataset_v2) Strategic Report Overview (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XAioZINde902hlujD9hIaiIK5Eagx7w5XP9f8Q7P0KU/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.lbr59vck876) Full Strategic Report (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-nyor44kBo5v6lb92ajjzJmYFJ-TXLcafyUz9luQMVk/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.iiwcx8uz2jje) Defining Research Software: a controversial discussion (https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.5504016) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Michelle Barker.

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  34:47
• Episode 266: Sustain OSS Virtual Event: Recap!

  Guests Eriol Fox | Allen “Gunner” Gunn | Leslie Hawthorn | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special episode of Sustain, Richard has a discussion with guests and fellow hosts Eriol Fox, Abby Cabunoc Mayes, Leslie Hawthorne, and Gunner, about the recent virtual Sustain event discussing the current state and future of sustaining open source software. The conversation covers a broad range of topics, from the impact of AI on open source and the complexity of corporate funding, to the importance of succession planning and the need for a continued focus on equity and inclusion. The group also express gratitude to the community and highlight the necessity of creating safe spaces for deep and meaningful discussions about the human aspects of open source. Future events and potential topics are also teased. Hit the download button now! [00:01:45] Gunner shares an event summary starting on the evolution of SustainOSS, and talks about the topics ranging from usage metrics, donor programs, geopolitical barriers in FOSS, and details the working sessions. [00:03:34] Everyone shares their personal takeaway from the event. [00:09:57] We hear about the conversations that were missed at the event and what everyone would like to talk about in the future about sustaining open source. [00:17:56] Gunner briefs us on the next event with a possibility of another forum focused entirely on AI, and Richard proposes exploring digital sovereignty and how it intersects with open source principles. [00:19:39] We end with final thoughts from everyone: Gunner expresses gratitude for the community, Abby is grateful for the space and conversations, Leslie gives a shoutout to UN Open Source Week for fostering global cooperation, Eriol praises Jonah Duckles for putting out “Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry,” and Richard encourages listeners to keep contributing and engaging with the Sustain community. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Eriol Fox Website (https://erioldoesdesign.github.io/) Allen “Gunner” Gunn LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/allen-gunn-acab/) Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesliehawthorn/) Abby Cabunoc Mayes Website (https://abbycabs.github.io/) Monki Gras 2025 (https://monkigras.com/) UN Open Source Week 2025 (https://opencommons.org/UN_Open_Source_Week_2025) Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry by Jonah Duckles, Dan Sholler, Beth Duckles (https://orgmycology.com/10-simple-rules-for-academic-industry-collab/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/)

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