Sustain

Guests Rynn Mancuso | Maryblessing Okolie | Mo McElaney Panelist Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard and Eriol talk with members of the Organization for Ethical Source (OES), Rynn Mancuso, Maryblessing Okolie, and Mo McElaney, about how ethics, licensing, and codes of conduct intersect in open source. They unpack the origins and challenges of the Hippocratic License, the community driven overhaul of Contributor Covenant 3.0, what it really takes to collaborate across borders and cultures, and how OES is now turning its attention to ethical AI, translations and practical resources for communities to make it a safer and more inclusive space. They also suggest ways for listeners to get involved in these important initiatives. Hit download now! [00:02:17] Rynn gives the elevator pitch on what the Organization for Ethical (OES) is. [00:04:57] Mo explains the Hippocratic License is modeled on “do no harm” and it’s an open source license. [00:06:06] Richard wonders if the Hippocratic License is open source since we’re not using OSI’s definition. Mo explains that OES still uses “open source” in a broader, “big tent” sense focused on work done in the open, and Rynn adds why definitions need to evolve. [00:09:27] Rynn shares rewriting the Contributor Covenant 3.0, starting from their background, to being a limited scope, and getting feedback from translators that language was too American/Western and 3.0 needed a broader cultural fit. [00:15:12] Maryblessing was brought in to lead v3.0 from an African, non-US perspective and to make the process community driven. She tells us what’s new in the Contributor Covenant 3.0. [00:19:43] The discussion covers how they all worked together. It was a highly collaborative, consensus driven process where anyone could propose edits. They talk about how long it took, not work entirely on GitHub, and why not everything was public. [00:24:59] We hear about some adoption challenges for codes of conduct for small projects and enterprises. [00:28:53] Rynn, Mo, and Maryblessing touch on how they are approaching ethical AI work, they share options to support OES, how to get involved, and translation needs. Quotes [00:12:32] “It was a very limited scope, and we always designed it to work on the internet and be for open source projects.” [00:13:23] “I would get these problems that really had to do with caste, but nobody would say anything about caste.” [00:16:37] “This new version also emphasizes restorative justice, and we’re keen on using inclusive languages.” [00:17:06] “We’re making progress on bringing in African translation.” [00:17:38] “One of the things we did with the new website was to include the CC3 builder which was going to help make it easy for people to adapt the code of conduct.” [00:21:37] “Every bit of feedback we got, we took it seriously, we talked about it.” [00:22:13] “It took is a year and six months to do the entire thing, to make sure people were available. It took that long because we wanted to make sure we were incorporating every feedback.” [00:23:14] “We do not do everything in the open on GitHub. One reason is structural. GitHub is not great at document management. Another reason we do that is we’ve received a lot of harassment form groups on the internet that were frankly invested in being able to cause trouble for a lot of people.” [00:29:14] “We’re in the early stages of considering how we could approach ethical AI.” Spotlight [00:33:12] Mo's spotlight is for more folks to get involved with this project and other projects through the OES. [00:33:34] Rynn’s spotlight is a shoutout to the folks at IBM and RedHat and Dev/Mission and JVS where they volunteer. [00:35:25] Maryblessing’s spotlight is all the amazing people that helped put together the Contributor Covenant v.3.: Greg Cassel, Coraline Ada Ehmke, Gerardo Lisboa, Rynn Mancuso, Mo McElaney, Maryblessing Okolie, Ben Sternthal, and Casey Watts. [00:36:11] Eriol’s spotlight is the OpenSSF Working Group on Securing Software Repositories. [00:36:44] Richard’s spotlight is a fun paper called, Paradoxes of Openness: Trans Experiences in Open Source Software by Hana Frluckaj, Nikki Stevens, James Howison, and Laura Dabbish. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Eriol Fox X (https://x.com/EriolDoesDesign) Rynn Mancuso LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rynnmancuso/) Maryblessing Okolie LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryblessingokolie/?originalSubdomain=ng) Mo McElaney LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maureenmcelaney/) Organization For Ethical Source (OES) (https://ethicalsource.dev/) OES- What We Do (https://ethicalsource.dev/what-we-do/) OES-What We Believe (https://ethicalsource.dev/what-we-believe/) Donate-The Organization for Ethical Source (Open Collective) (https://opencollective.com/ethical-source) Contributor Covenant (https://www.contributor-covenant.org/) Contributor Covenant 3.0 Code of Conduct (https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/3/0/code_of_conduct/) Code of conduct enforcement guidelines (MDN Web Docs) (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/Community/Community_Participation_Guidelines) Coraline Ada Ehmke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coraline_Ada_Ehmke) Ethical Source- Beacon (https://github.com/EthicalSource/beacon) Adopt Contributor Covenant (https://www.contributor-covenant.org/adopt/) Resources for Community Moderators (https://www.contributor-covenant.org/resources/) Dev/Mission (https://devmission.org/) JVS (Jewish Vocational Services) (https://jvs.org/) Techtonica (https://techtonica.org/) OpenSSF Working Group on Securing Software Repositories (https://github.com/ossf/wg-securing-software-repos) Paradoxes of Openness: Trans Experiences in Open Source Software (ACM Digital Library) (https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3687047) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Maryblessing Okolie, Maureen Mcelaney, and Rynn Mancuso.

Guests Dawn Wages | Loren Crary Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer talks with Dawn Wages, former Chair of the Python Software Foundation board and Loren Crary, Deputy Executive Director of the PSF, about how the PSF sustains Python and its community, governance, fundraising, and events like PyCon US, and why they ultimately turned down a $1.5M NSF grant rather than accept new anti-DEI conditions. They walk through what the grant was for, how the decision unfolded, the financial and ethical risks involved, and the overwhelming community response in donations and support, ending with a call to participate in the PSF fundraiser and submit talks to PyCon US 2026. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:41] Dawn explains she just finished her term as Chair at the PSF Board, previously served as Treasurer, and that board seats are elected volunteer toles with three-year terms. [00:03:40] Loren describes her job as Deputy Executive Director, #2 to ED Deb Nicholson. She leads fundraising and revenue strategy, handles internal operations and strategic planning, and she clarifies that the Python Steering Council steers the language itself and mentions PyCon US will be in Long Beach, CA May 2026. [00:05:38] Dawn shares a personal story how PSF funding and local Python user group helped her start in Python a decade ago and encourages listeners to donate and use company matching. [00:06:57] Loren speaks about sponsors and individual donors and plugs the fundraiser and the “cute snake thermometer” on the donate page. [00:08:00] Richard, as a board member of Python New Zealand, underscores PSF’s support for Python user groups and conferences. He then pivots to ask about strategy where Loren describes how the board leads strategy. [00:13:34] Dawn reflects on learning to chair the board for the first time, praising staff expertise, and she describes the ‘flywheel’ model where staff and board collaborate closely, with staff often joining board meetings to co-develop strategy. [00:15:18] Loren highlights the PSF board and representation. [00:16:59] Richard gives a special shout-out to Phyllis Dobbs as one of the “unsung heroes” of open source, noting her work with OSI and Deb in the past. [00:17:26] The convo turns to the NSF Safe OSE program and what happened with the large grant the PSF was awarded and then declined. Loren details everything that happened and gives a shout-out to Seth Larson, whom she collaborated with. [00:29:00] Loren reads the key clause that PSF would need to affirm, and the board ultimately made the call that it was too risky to their mission to accept the terms. [00:31:42] Dawn explains the board’s decision to withdraw and Loren notes that no one on the board or staff ever floated “dropping DEI to take the money.” [00:33:55] Dawn points to Python’s reputation as a welcoming, diverse community and DEI is portrayed as “lifeblood,” not an optional extra. [00:35:03] What happened after they said they weren’t taking the money? Dawn and Loren recount an outpouring of support after the public statement, and we find out how much money the fundraiser has made so far along including an anonymous donation. [00:38:33] Dawn zooms out to decades of conversations about funding open source, arguing that individual donors and major AI companies profiting from Python should be contributing at scale. [00:41:20] Richard reinforces the ongoing donation, and Loren plugs the PyCon US Call for Proposals (open through December 19) with new AI and security tracks and invites listeners to submit. Quotes [00:07:09] “If you want to know what a nonprofit does, look at who their funders are and that’s who they’re working for.” [00:12:07] “The board sets a strategy, but there needs to be a ‘flywheel’ from the staff to keep things like that going.” [00:18:45] “We dipped our toes into grant funding, and we thought that would be a great way to make our work more sustainable.” [00:32:40] “The $1.5 million is not net worth putting the future health and safety of the language in the organization in jeopardy.” [00:32:58] “I am proud that at no point did anyone float: What if we just stopped doing everything DEI and take the money?” [00:38:09] “I like my boss to be the users.” [00:38:41] “We’ve been talking about what it means to fund open source for decades…I think this is an interesting arc that we’re experiencing. I’m hoping that the numbers will have two or three commas from individual donations.” Spotlight [00:42:15] Richard’s spotlight is Phyllis Dobbs. [00:42:26] Dawn’s spotlight is PyScript. [00:42:42] Loren’s spotlight is The Carpentries. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Dawn Wages Website (https://dawnwages.info/) Loren Crary LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/loren-crary/) Python Software Foundation (http://www.python.org/psf/) PSF Donate (https://donate.python.org/) PyCon US 2026, Long Beach, CA (https://us.pycon.org/2026/) The Philadelphia Python Users Group (PhillyPUG) (https://www.meetup.com/phillypug/) Safety, Security, and Privacy of Open Source Ecosystems (Safe-OSE) (https://www.nsf.gov/funding/opportunities/safe-ose-safety-security-privacy-open-source-ecosystems) PSF Welcomes New Security Developer in Residence with Support from Alpha-Omega (https://openssf.org/blog/2023/06/22/psf-welcomes-new-security-developer-in-residence-with-support-from-alpha-omega/) Seth Michael Larson-GitHub (https://github.com/sethmlarson) Seth Larson Blog post: I am the first PSF Security Developer-in-Residence (https://sethmlarson.dev/security-developer-in-residence) Python Software Foundation turns down $1.5 million NSF grant because of the anti-DEI strings attached (The Verge) (https://www.theverge.com/news/808268/python-software-foundation-turns-down-1-5-million-nsf-grant-because-of-the-anti-dei-strings-attached) The PSF has withdrawn a $1.5 million proposal to US government grant program (PSF Blog post) (https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2025/10/NSF-funding-statement.html) PSF Board Meeting Minutes Archive (Python) (https://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/) Phyllis Dobbs (https://www.linkedin.com/in/phyllisadobbs/) PyScript (https://pyscript.net/) The Carpentries (https://carpentries.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Dawn Wages and Loren Crary.

Guest Richard J. Acton Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer speaks with Richard J. Acton, a research data outputs manager at the Human Developmental Biology Initiative based near Cambridge. He discusses his involvement with open source software through bioinformatics and his development of a comprehensive checklist for researchers producing code. This checklist aims to guide researchers in making their software outputs more citable, reproducible, and user-friendly. The conversation delves into various themes covered by the checklist, such as source control, licensing, documentation, testing, and governance. He also shares his insights on the importance of open science and transparent research practices, the challenges of balancing open source work with academic demands, and the potential role of funders and publishers in supporting these efforts. Press download more to hear more! [00:00:43] Richard Acton explains his job at the Human Developmental Biology Initiative and how the checklist started. [00:01:23] He transitioned into open source via bioinformatics and Linux and advocates for open science and reproducibility in software. [00:02:26] We learn why the checklist was created and the design and structure of the checklist. [00:05:46] Richard Acton talks about lack and time and incentives prevent open sourcing and the how the checklist makes code more citable and boost academic recognition. [00:09:17] There’s a discussion on the trade-off between citing a paper vs. citing the code. [00:12:05] The tier system is mentioned and Richard Acton explains how the checklist encourages progression from bronze to platinum and goes over the key areas in the checklist categories. [00:14:21] Governance and community is discussed with Richard Acton explaining that governance also includes continuity and community management is addressed especially for reusable pipelines. [00:16:29] We hear about the three categories for research code: one-off code, web-based services, and reusable packages and how the definitions were tailored for the checklist. [00:17:23] Richard Acton presented the checklist at the SSI workshop and he’s seeking contributors, reviewers, and testers. [00:19:18] Richard Action advocates for publishers to enforce code quality and universities and funders can hire staff to ease researcher workload, and he speaks about transparency and quality assurance. [00:24:59] Implementation and badging is discussed and he shares the grading is currently designed for self-assessment, but open to expert review in the future. [00:26:33] Richard Acton is open to collaborating with CHAOSS and he aims to grow the project into a broader community standard. [00:27:23] Find out where you can follow Richard Acton and his work on the web. Quotes [00:02:13] “Software being an integral part of modern research means that it needs to be open in order to be reproducible effectively.” Spotlight [00:27:58] Richard’s spotlight is attending the Birds New Zealand annual conf. [00:28:55] Richard Acton’s spotlight is ‘rix: Reproducible Environments with Nix.’ Links [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Richard J. Acton Website (https://richardjacton.net/) Richard J. Acton Mastodon (https://fosstodon.org/@RichardJActon) Research Software Sharing, Publication, & Distribution Checklists (https://rsspdc.org/) Birds New Zealand (https://www.birdsnz.org.nz/) rix: Reproducible Environments with Nix (https://github.com/ropensci/rix/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Richard J. Acton.

Guest Qianqian Ye Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard hosts a conversation with Qianqian “Q” Ye, an artist, creative technologist, and educator who recently led the p5.js project, an open-source JavaScript library designed to prioritize accessibility and diversity in learning to code. Q shares her journey from an architectural background to contributing and eventually leading p5.js, a library created by artists for artists with a strong focus on visual feedback and accessibility. They discuss the importance of decentralizing leadership, setting boundaries to avoid burnout, and empowering contributors to ensure the project's sustainability. Key topics include the role of care work in open source, the community-driven evolution of p5.js, and strategies for maintaining a collaborative and inclusive environment. Q also highlights the significance of providing clear documentation and recognizing all forms of contributions to foster a welcoming community. Press download now to hear more! [00:001:01] Q explains what p5.js is and how it teaches people to code. [00:02:11] Q shares her journey from former architect turned creative technologist and highlights her community progression through translation and outreach. [00:04:19] Why is p5.js different? Q emphasizes the output is art, not code, making it more inclusive and intuitive for beginners. [00:05:40] Richard inquires about the p5.js community and contributors and Q tells us there are 700-800 contributors officially recognized. [00:06:33] Q elaborates on the relationship with the Processing Foundation. P5.js operates semi-independently under its support, and she talks about the staff size for p5.js. [00:07:49] Q believes the traditional open source volunteerism is problematic and the Sovereign Tech Agency provided funding to support mentors and contributors. [00:09:19] Q’s essay “Care Work in OSS” explores the invisible labor behind software projects and advocates for recognizing emotional labor and decentralized decision making. [00:10:15] We hear about the rotating leadership and inclusivity and how documentation and mentorship is the key to smooth transitions. [00:13:18] Q talks about the translation stewardship with a decentralized structure with language-specific stewards and using inclusive onboarding and translations. [00:15:31] Richard questions preventing burnout in stewards and Q elaborates how p5.js handles this and why access includes joy and inclusivity. [00:18:05] We hear how decisions about feature acceptance are made through community review and discussions, as well as how some users challenged the access-first policy. [00:20:15] Balancing art and community is discussed here as Q clarifies that open source and the arts often conflict due to individualism vs. collectivism. [00:21:48] How does Q help the open source community learn and give credit to other people well all the time? She gives routine shoutouts in release notes, social media, and seeks to credit all contributions, not just code. [00:24:48] Q shares how she deals with emotional burnout and boundaries and tips for setting boundaries. [00:28:18] What’s next for Q? She’s returning from maternity leave as Manager of Community and Partnerships for the Processing Foundation, and focus on building relationships and discussing sustainable funding at UN Open Source Week. [00:29:32] Find out where you can follow Q and p5.js on the web. Quotes [00:08:00] “I strongly believe that the volunteer-based model in open source is very problematic, and I’ve been trying to experiment different ways on doing thing alternatively.” [00:09:55] “OSS appears faceless, but there are so many people behind OSS.” [00:11:17] “Creators and maintainers of OSS carry bias of their own when they maintain the software.” [00:16:20] “Having to say no helped us to clarify the vision for the p5.js project.” Spotlight [00:30:01] Richard’s spotlight is the book, Things Become Other Things by Craig Mod [00:30:50] Q’s spotlight is two contributors, Dave Pagurek and Kenneth Lim. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Qianqian Ye LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/qianqian-ye-23693364/) Qianqian Ye Website (https://qianqian-ye.com/) p5.js (https://p5js.org/) p5.js Access Statement (https://p5js.org/contribute/access/) All Contributors (https://allcontributors.org/) Processing Foundation (https://processingfoundation.org/) Sovereign Tech Agency (https://www.sovereign.tech/) Lauren Lee McCarthy (https://get-lauren.net/) Making p5.js by Lauren Lee McCarthy (https://medium.com/processing-foundation/making-p5-js-fd293ba91a32) UN Open Source Week 2025, NYC, June 16-20 (https://www.un.org/digital-emerging-technologies/content/open-source-week-2025) Things Become Other Things by Craig Mod (https://craigmod.com/ridgeline/174/) P5.js 2.0 and an open source philosophy by Dave Pagurek (https://www.davepagurek.com/blog/p5-2.0-philosophy/) Designing an addon library system for p5.js 2.0 by Kenneth Lim (https://dev.to/limzykenneth/designing-an-addon-library-system-for-p5js-20-3d4p) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Qianqian Ye.

Guest Federico Mena Quintero Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special Maintainer Month episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer chats with Federico Mena Quintero, a foundational GNOME hacker and board member. Federico shares his journey from learning image processing in high school, becoming a key contributor to the GIMP project, and founding the GNOME desktop environment. He discusses the historical context, challenges, and achievements of GNOME and open source development. The conversation delves into the importance of maintaining infrastructural software, adapting to new technologies like the Rust programming language, and the socio-economic factors influencing the open source community's demographics. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:29] Federico describes GNOME as the “surface of your desk”- the visual and interactive layer of the Linux desktop. [00:02:16] Federico started writing image processing programs in high school and discovered GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) and began contributing plugins. Encouraged by positive feedback, he continued developing filters and building community resources. [00:10:20] The proprietary Motif GUI toolkit used by GIMP prompted the creation of GTK (GIMP Toolkit), a free alternative. GTK was split from GIMP and became a foundation for GNOME. Miguel de Icaza learned about modular component design from Microsoft and brought those ideas to the GNOME team. [00:14:48] Federico explains KDE was already launched but used the non-free Qt toolkit and GNOME was created as a fully free alternative using GTK. [00:17:58] They discuss GNOME’s long-term success which has thousands of contributors and institutional backing from its foundation. [00:21:06] Federico reflects on his privilege. He never had to apply for his first job because he was recruited and recognizes the barriers to entry for underrepresented communities. [00:24:32] The conversation turns to global south and diversity. Federico discusses the limitations on who can participate in open source due to time, money, and societal roles, and notes that women and people outside the Global North often face greater barriers. [00:30:37] Richard inquires what Federico means by “maintaining infrastructure.” He explains that open source today is less about new features and more about keeping infrastructure working. [00:32:59] Federico talks about a recent project to replace a vital but abandoned infrastructure component and emphasizes the need for sustainable maintenance strategies. [00:36:25] Federico became maintainer of Librsvg image rendering library from C to Rust. [00:40:00] Find out where you can follow Federico on the web. Quotes [00:31:10] “Software doesn’t rot, but the environment around it changes.” Spotlight [00:40:57] Richard’s spotlight is the book, 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. [00:41:49] Federico’s spotlight is two books: Malintzin’s Choices and James. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Federico Mena Quintero Blog (https://viruta.org/) Federico Mena Quintero Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@[email protected]) GNOME (https://www.gnome.org/) GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) (https://www.gimp.org/) GTK (https://www.gtk.org/) Librsvg (https://github.com/GNOME/librsvg) 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491%3A_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus) La Malinche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Malinche) Malintzin’s Choices by Camila Townsend (https://archive.org/details/malintzinschoice0000town) James by Percival Everett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_(novel)) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Federico Mena Quintero.