Sustain

Guest

Jingna Zhang

Panelists

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox

Show Notes

In this episode of Sustain, Richard and Eriol talk with Jingna Zhang about Cara, AI copyright, and protecting artists’ creative ownership. The discussion also examines the intersection of art and open source, the importance of licensing, and how technology can better support creative communities without exploiting their work. Press download now to hear more!

[00:02:22] Jingna recounts her legal battle after an artist copied her photograph, won an award in Luxembourg, and initially defended his use of her work.

[00:07:01] We learn why Jingna created Cara and how it takes a practical approach to generative AI, focusing on protecting creators' rights rather than making unrealistic promises to ban AI forever.

[00:13:37] Jingna compares the financial support available to open source developers with the limited resources available to independent artists, questioning how creative work can be better sustained.

[00:15:29] The discussion explores the need for global protections.

[00:17:24] Jingna explains how Cara encourages community interaction, longer comments, and user-curated feeds rather than algorithm-driven engagement. Also, she discusses the disconnect between artists, developers, and newer AI enthusiasts.

[00:22:00] Eriol and Jingna discuss coding, design, photography, and engineering as creative disciplines.

[00:24:30] Richards asks about Lantern and Jingna explains how she helped launch Lantern after Cara experienced targeted scraping attacks.

[00:27:03] They discuss open source licensing and AI restrictions.

[00:28:21] Eriol highlights how existing open source licenses often fail to address design assets, user research, and other creative contributions beyond code.

[00:30:31] Find out where to follow Jingna and learn more about Cara and Lantern.

Quotes

[00:18:17] “I would love for Cara to be a corner of a better internet.”

[00:22:52] “Good programming is art and good engineering managing is art.”

[00:24:42] “The first scraper [of Cara] actually ended up apologizing.”

Spotlight

[00:31:07] Richard’s spotlight is the Biodiversity Heritage Library.

[00:32:05] Eriol’s spotlight is a report and project called, Exploratory study of Addicting Design.

[00:33:06] Jingna’s spotlight is Open Access at The Met.

Links

SustainOSS

podcast@sustainoss.org

richard@sustainoss.org

SustainOSS Discourse

SustainOSS Mastodon

SustainOSS Bluesky

SustainOSS LinkedIn

Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)

Richard Littauer Socials

Eriol Fox Website

Jingna Zhang X

Jingna Zhang Website

Jingna Zhang Blog

Jingna Zhang Instagram

Cara

Lantern

Biodiversity Heritage Library

Exploratory study of Addicting Design- Caroline Sinders and Dr. Romanye Gad el Rab

Sustain Podcast-Episode 107: Caroline Sinders on building healthy OSS Communities

Open Access at The Met

Sponsor

CURIOSS

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer

Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound

Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

The photo background image is © 2026 Jingna Zhang. All rights reserved.

Special Guest: Jingna Zhang.

Guest

Jiayi Sun | Shurui Zhou

Panelist

Richard Littauer

Show Notes

In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer is joined by University of Toronto researchers Jiayi Sun and Shurui Zhou to discuss their research on how Codes of Conduct affect open source communities after adoption. Drawing from a dataset of more than 150,000 GitHub repositories, they explore how often Codes of Conduct are updated, whether they attract or discourage contributors, and why simply adding a policy may not be enough to create a healthy community. They also discuss using AI to analyze thousands of Codes of Conduct changes and how the rise of AI-generated contributions is creating new challenges for open source maintainers. Download and listen now!

[00:01:03] Jiayi Sun and Shurui Zhou introduce their research into collaboration, sustainability, and community dynamics within open source software.

[00:03:14] The researchers built a massive dataset covering more than 150,000 GitHub repositories with Codes of Conduct.

[00:04:04] Their paper, Beyond Adoption: Examining the Evolution and Impact of Codes of Conduct on Open Source Communities, examines what happens after a Code of Conduct is adopted and whether it changes community participation.

[00:07:24] Jiayi explains how the team identified Codes of Conduct using GitHub issues, pull requests, commit messages, repository files, and GitHub's community metadata.

[00:10:53] One of the biggest findings: more than 75% of projects never update their Code of Conduct after initially adopting it.

[00:15:10] Richard asks about the tools they used to cluster and understand the objects they were looking at. The researchers used GPT-4 Turbo to help analyze roughly 8,000 Code of Conduct-related commits and categorize the types of changes projects were making.

[00:17:41] Code of Conduct adoption was associated with a short-term increase in new contributors, along with some increase in existing contributors disengaging.

[00:20:21] Long-term effects were much smaller, suggesting that a Code of Conduct can serve as an important signal, but community health requires continued structural and cultural work beyond simply having a policy.

[00:22:01] AI-assisted and agentic software development is creating a new challenge for Codes of Conduct, as communities debate how AI-generated contributions should be handled and what behavior should be allowed.

[00:26:06] Shurui explains how the research grew out of conversations about inclusion and community management, asking a fundamental question: if so many projects already have Codes of Conduct, why do maintainers still spend so much time resolving conflicts?

Quotes

[00:11:27] “Over 75% of projects never touch their code of conduct after initial adoption.”

[00:23:09] “This question of how people engage with contributors has become more important with agentic software engineering and the growing volume of AI assistant contributions.”

Spotlight

[00:29:46] Richard's spotlight is Seldo, a.k.a Laurie Voss, and a blog post they wrote called, “Nobody pays for open source. We can force them to.”

[00:30:43] Shurui’s spotlight is Arliss Collins from NumFOCUS.

[00:31:18] Jiayi’s spotlight is the Scientific Software Community.

Links

SustainOSS

podcast@sustainoss.org

richard@sustainoss.org

SustainOSS Discourse

SustainOSS Mastodon

SustainOSS Bluesky

SustainOSS LinkedIn

Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)

Richard Littauer Socials

Jiayi Sun LinkedIn

Jiayi Sun Website

Shurui Zhou-University of Toronto

Shurui Zhou LinkedIn

Beyond Adoption: Examining the Evolution and Impact of Codes of Conduct on Open Source Communities

FOSSY-Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference

Sustain DEI Working Group

Nobody pays for open source. We can force them to. (post on seldo)

NumFOCUS

Arliss Collins LinkedIn

Sustain Podcast-Episode 53: What the Fork? Shurui Zhou on Forking in Open Source

Sponsor

CURIOSS

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer

Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound

Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

Special Guests: Jiayi Sun and Shurui Zhou.

Guest

Carol Willing | Hugo Bowne-Anderson

Panelist

Richard Littauer

Show Notes

Richard is joined by guests Carol Willing and Hugo Bowne-Anderson for a conversation about AI, open source, and what happens to communities when generating code and content becomes nearly effortless. They discuss how AI is changing the maintainer experience, the importance of human expertise and collaboration, local and community-driven models like Satyrn, and whether open source itself may shift from sharing code toward sharing workflows, skills, and ways of solving problems. Along the way, they explore the environmental and social costs of AI, the value of local models, and why community may become even more important in an agent-driven world. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:03:58] Hugo and Carol share their paths into independent consulting and why having autonomy over their work matters.

[00:08:20] The conversation shifts to how AI is creating new challenges for open source maintainers, including automated PRs, issues, and declining use of traditional documentation.

[00:10:31] Carol describes AI as another major technological shift, useful in some areas, but disruptive to human connection and maintainer enjoyment.

[00:14:41] The group discusses how LLMs tend toward average answers unless people bring strong domain expertise and critical thinking.

[00:18:23] Carol introduces Satyrn AI, a community-focused effort exploring trusted, transparent, smaller models that can run locally.

[00:23:30] AI tools are described as amplifiers: understanding how to use them effectively may become just as important as having access to them.

[00:29:59] They question whether developers will still contribute fixes upstream or simply have agents create personalized software for them. Carol argues that human collaboration still provides something agents cannot easily replace, and open source may evolve beyond its traditional focus on code.

[00:34:52] Hugo explores how AI exposes weaknesses in incentive systems, from software development and mathematics to education.

[00:37:03] Carol suggests the future may bring renewed appreciation for design, documentation, community management, creativity, and other contributions beyond code.

[00:40:52] Hugo and Carol share advice: start small, experiment, contribute to communities you use, and keep the human side of open source at the center.

Quotes

[00:10:40] “[On new tech] There’s always the storming and the norming phase.”

[00:13:15] “Who’s being helped, who’s being harmed, and who’s not even at the table with these tools?”

Spotlight

[00:42:26] Richard’s spotlight is Vortex Binoculars.

[00:42:40] Carol’s spotlight is PyLadies and pyOpenSci.

[00:43:26] Hugo’s spotlight is Marimo Notebook.

Links

SustainOSS

podcast@sustainoss.org

richard@sustainoss.org

SustainOSS Discourse

SustainOSS Mastodon

SustainOSS Bluesky

SustainOSS LinkedIn

Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)

Richard Littauer Socials

Carol Willing LinkedIn

Willing Consulting

Hugo Bowne-Anderson LinkedIn

Hugo Bowne-Anderson GitHub

Vanishing Gradients Podcast

Show Us Your (Agent) Skills Episode 1 (YouTube)

The Corporation (2003 film)

Satyrn AI

Apertus

Brandeis Marshall (Wikipedia)

Pi

Pliny

Eric von Hippel

Practical AI Privacy

Fernando Pérez (software developer)

IPython

jupyter

Dask

Matthew Rocklin

Beyond Navier-Stokes: Who Controls Scientific Discovery? (Hugo Bowne-Anderson)

Vortex Binoculars

PyLadies

pyOpenSci

Marimo

Sustain Podcast- Episode 250: Jules Barros Lima on building diversity into open source communities

Sustain Podcast- Episode 254: Batool Almarzouq on Localizing Open Source Communities

Sponsor

CURIOSS

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer

Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound

Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

Special Guests: Carol Willing and Hugo Bowne-Anderson.

Guest

Daniel Roe | Matias Capeletto

Panelist

Richard Littauer

Show Notes

In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer sits down with Daniel Roe and Matias “Patak” Capeletto to talk about npmx, the community-built alternative interface for exploring the npm registry. They dive into how a small idea exploded into hundreds of contributors and thousands of pull requests, why the project intentionally puts people and community ahead of nonstop productivity, and how they’re approaching governance, inclusion, burnout, and sustainability. They also explore how npmx could make finding the right JavaScript packages easier, the challenges of funding a fast-growing open source project, and why healthy open source communities need much more than great code. Start listening now!

[00:02:22] Daniel explains what npmx is and what started in January 2026 quickly attracted dozens of pull requests, eventually growing to hundreds of contributors and a large Discord community.

[00:05:44] They discuss modern web technology, Algolia powered search, dark mode, expanded download graphs, package comparisons, and other improvements contributed by the community, and about building around people instead of productivity.

[00:09:58] Matias shares the open source project that went on vacation.

[00:14:36] Daniel and Matias talk about managing disagreements, establishing a code of conduct, separating developer and user communities, and why shared values and inclusion are essential to the project.

[00:18:43] Matias explains npmx’s connection to the Ecosystem Performance community and how the site can surface modern or better-maintained alternatives instead of relying only on package popularity.

[00:22:52] Rather than trying to support every programming ecosystem, Daniel talks about making npmx smarter within JavaScript and TypeScript.

[00:26:54] They discuss sponsorships, grants, company partnerships, conferences, and the eventual need to fund one or two developers full-time if the project is going to thrive long term.

[00:29:58] Daniel explains why open source needs more programmers.

[00:31:54] Find out where you can go online to learn more and help with projects at npmx.

Quotes

[00:08:53] “It was very special for a lot of us that were a little lost with that connection and all the noise from companies telling people they’re going to be replaced.”

[00:11:37] “You are the thief of joy.”

[00:13:03] “That was a side effect of people having fun with their friends that they were meeting for the first time online.”

[00:16:56] “Everybody that shares our values is welcome, but it’s not that everyone is welcome by itself.”

[00:30:07] “I don’t think OSS is a business.”

Spotlight

[00:33:18] Richard’s spotlight is the book, With a Bird: A Reader on Avian Kinship and his digital alarm clock.

[00:34:02] Daniel’s spotlight is the game, Clues by Sam.

[00:34:35] Matias’s spotlight is the tool, AgentScan.

Links

SustainOSS

podcast@sustainoss.org

richard@sustainoss.org

SustainOSS Discourse

SustainOSS Mastodon

SustainOSS Bluesky

SustainOSS LinkedIn

Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)

Richard Littauer Socials

Daniel Roe Website

Daniel Roe LinkedIn

Matias Capeletto Website

Matias Capeletto Bluesky (patak)

Open Collective-npmx (Contribute)

npmx

npm

npmx.dev-GitHub

npmx-recharging

Elk -webtoo.Is

Daniel Roe Blog: Diversity, equity and inclusion

e18e (Ecosystem Performance)

ecosyste.ms

Count Binface

npmx Discord

Software Stewardship Lab

Braun digital alarm clock

With a Bird, A Reader on Avian Kinship

Clues by Sam

AgentScan

Sustain Podcast-Episode 292: Vlad-Stefan Harbuz: Launching the Software Stewardship Lab

Sponsor

CURIOSS

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer

Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound

Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

Special Guests: Daniel Roe and Matias Capaleto.

Guest

Vlad-Stefan Harbuz

Panelist

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox | Abby Cabunoc Mayes

Show Notes

“Today we’re launching the Software Stewardship Lab.” - Vlad-Stefan

In this episode, Richard, Abby, and Eriol welcome Vlad-Stefan Harbuz - University of Edinburgh PhD student, Executive Director of the Software Stewardship Lab, and Director of the Open Source Pledge - to talk about the Open Source Pledge and the newly launched Software Stewardship Lab. They discuss how companies can better support the open source software they depend on, why it can be difficult to know where funding should go, and how the lab hopes to address issues like software security, hidden dependencies, and maintainer burnout. Press download now to hear more!

[00:02:03] Richard introduces Vlad and his background, and Vlad shares his path into open source research.

[00:03:30] Vlad explains how the Open Source Pledge works.

[00:06:17] The conversation turns to how the funding goes directly to maintainers.

[00:07:57] Vlad discusses why open source funding becomes a popularity contest.

[00:10:05] We hear about challenges for large companies joining the pledge.

[00:13:16] Vlad tells us about the Software Stewardship Lab.

[00:15:09] The conversation highlights the importance of design, user experience, copywriting, localization, data collection, and other essential work that is frequently overlooked or poorly funded.

[00:17:59] Vlad discusses potential partnerships with the Software Sustainability Institute and researchers studying open source, research software, and community health.

[00:20:58] We hear how the lab plans to fund its work and the hidden risk of binary dependencies.

[00:25:49] The lab’s work extends beyond dependency mapping to research on maintainer burnout, the effects of AI, mental health, and governance structures that encourage sustainable participation.

[00:28:48] Vlad urges employees and decision-makers to recognize that supporting open source is both a public good and a practical business investment that can prevent critical infrastructure from breaking.

Quotes

[00:09:12] “These metrics are at best proxies currently.”

[00:17:47] “We need more educational resources to show people that this stuff is really important and it’s not just lines of code.”

[00:28:19] “It’s about creating a larger space that focused on more general questions in open source sustainability.”

[00:28:53] “I would like to tell people that work for large companies to tell their employers that their corporate commercial work relies more on open source software that people develop for free in their free time, the work is tremendously important for their business, and there are other organizations that are doing work to help create resources to make this infrastructure more sustainable.”

[00:29:31] “Try to convince your boss that this stuff is worth funding, and not just for the social good! It’s also in the company’s interest, so you have two very good reasons to do it.”

Spotlight

[00:31:15] Eriol’s spotlight is Paloma Oliveira’s book, Diversifying Open Source.

[00:31:48] Abby’s spotlight is Ben Balter’s book, Open and Async.

[00:32:25] Richard’s spotlight is the Generative AI Risk Register.

[00:33:01] Vlad’s spotlight is Chad Whitacre and Open Path Episode 4.

Links

SustainOSS

podcast@sustainoss.org

richard@sustainoss.org

SustainOSS Discourse

SustainOSS Mastodon

SustainOSS Bluesky

SustainOSS LinkedIn

Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)

SustainOSS YouTube

Richard Littauer Socials

Eriol Fox Website

Abby Cabunoc Mayes Website

Vlad-Stefan Harbuz LinkedIn

Vlad-Stefan Harbuz Website

Software Stewardship Lab

Software Stewardship Lab Contribute (Open Collective)

Open Source Pledge

UK Research and Innovation: Apply for funding

npmx

Open Technology Research

Open Source in war-torn Ukraine and around the world—join me on an epic journey ❧ Open Path #4

PEP 725 – Specifying external dependencies in pyproject.toml

PEP 770 – Improving measurability of Python packages with Software Bill-of-Materials

PEP 804 –An external dependency registry and name mapping mechanism

Sustain Podcast: Episode 247- Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge

Sustain Podcast: 3 episodes featuring guest Chad Whitacre

Sustain Podcast: 3 episodes featuring guest Andrew Nesbitt

Sustain Podcast: 2 episodes featuring guest Kailash Nadh

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Neil Chue Hong

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Stuart Geiger

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Sean Goggins

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest James Howison

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Kaitlin Thaney

Sustain Podcast: 1 episode featuring guest Miranda Heath

Report on Burnout in Open Source Software (Miranda Heath Website)

Diversifying Open Source: An Open Standards Playbook for Inclusive and Equitable Tech Projects by Paloma Oliveira

About empires, pirates, and the small files that undo power (LinkedIn post by Paloma Oliveira)

Open and Async by Ben Balter

Generative AI Risk Register

Open Path Episode 4 (YouTube)

Sponsor

CURIOSS

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer

Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound

Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound