A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

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A single footnote in Kristin Kobes Du Mez's Live Laugh Love sent us down a rabbit hole we didn’t know existed: organized evangelical gay activism in the 1970s and 1980s, and the effort by white American evangelical leaders to erase it, discredit it, and clamp it down. We’re joined by historian of religion and sexuality Dr. William Stell, author of Born Again Queer, to map the people, institutions, and arguments that shaped the bedrock positions many of us grew up assuming were timeless.

We talk about how publications like Christianity Today carried outsized influence among pastors, and how evangelical messaging shifted over time from anti-communism and psychiatric categories to tighter Bible-centered claims. William explains why he uses the term “antigay,” how “welcoming but not affirming” still functions within that category, and why the fight wasn’t only about doctrine but about power, identity, and who gets to claim “gospel-centered" Christianity. Along the way, we unpack his critique of belief-based definitions of evangelicalism and why boundary-drawing often matters more than any neat list of doctrines.

We also address the Elisabeth Elliot material that first caught our attention, not to sensationalize her story, but to highlight what purity culture demands do to real human beings and why hypocrisy should trigger more than cheap dunks. Finally, we explore the link between antigay theology and gender complementarianism, the legacy of activists like Ralph Blair, and the still-unanswered question that ends the book: can there be an evangelicalism that is not built on the bodies of queer outsiders?

If this conversation helps you name something from your past or rethink what you were taught, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
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We sit down with Kristin Kobes Du Mez to talk about her new book Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made. We discuss how what looks like consumer fluff often hides a dense system of theology, discipline, and power. If you grew up around evangelical culture, charismatic spirituality, Christian bookstores, or influencer Christianity--especially if you're a woman--a lot of this will probably feel uncomfortably familiar. 

We follow the thread from holiness teaching and positive thinking into the promise that attitude and obedience can unlock blessing, prosperity, and control over your life. Along the way, we talk about why traditions that seem like opposites can end up reinforcing the same instincts, how publishers and celebrity platforms shape theology, and how doctrines like inerrancy function to centralize authority. Kristin also walks us through the human cost: leaders whose public scripts preach happiness while their private lives reveal suffering, disillusionment, and contradictions that ripple through generations of followers. 

Then we connect it to right now: multi-level marketing as a high-control training ground, “no negativity” culture, wellness conspiracies, and the pipeline that helped "pastel QAnon" spread during COVID. We also ask why mainstream political analysis still struggles to take religion seriously, even when Christian nationalism and religious politics keep showing up in the data. If this one helps you name something you’ve lived through, please share it with a friend and leave a review!
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Randy and Kyle get brutally honest about the moment doubt stops feeling like “questions” and starts feeling like unbelief, including what it’s like to say that out loud when you’re a pastor with a church, a family, and a job that takes for granted that you believe in God.

We dig into the philosophy and the lived spirituality behind the words we toss around too easily: belief, disbelief, doubt, and faith. Kyle unpacks the senses in which belief is (and isn't) an attitude toward a proposition, why certainty is basically impossible, and why faith can’t survive if it’s treated like a 100% confidence score. From “faith that” (propositions like the resurrection) to “faith in” (trust, loyalty, relationship), we explore how acceptance, hope, desire, and resilience can carry a Christian faith journey through seasons when your mind won’t cooperate.

We also talk Bible language like pistis as faithfulness, the hiddenness of God, and why the tradition is full of saints and spiritual giants who knew darkness from the inside. Our goal isn’t to shame atheism or glorify doubt, but to make space for honesty and widen the possibilities for understanding what faith can mean.
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Prayer can fall apart slowly. One day you are sure your words move heaven, and eventually you can't tell if you're talking to anyone at all. We return to the topic of prayer to discuss what happens when it stops feeling natural, when the old charismatic certainty no longer fits, and when trying to pray the way you used to would feel performative instead of real.

We dig into how Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity formed us with beautiful gifts as well as disappointed expectations, especially the pressure to pray with confidence, eloquence, and nonstop positivity. From public prayer “for the room” to private prayer that feels like a foreign language, we name the awkwardness, the grief, and the fear that prayer struggles can signal a bigger faith crisis. We share stories of spiritual experience, including moments that feel like the Holy Spirit’s presence and the unsettling moments that feel like absence.

Then we turn toward rebuilding. We talk about liturgical prayer and communal rhythms, written prayers that give us words when we do not have them, and how practices like contemplative prayer, attention in creation, gratitude, and the Eucharist can become genuine ways of connecting with God without pretending we have it all figured out. We also wrestle with a hard question for progressive Christianity and post-evangelical life: if you change enough ingredients, is it still prayer, or did it become something else?

If you feel stuck, cynical, hopeful, or all of the above about prayer, you are not alone. We'd love to hear from you.
Catch our first conversation about prayer here.
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

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We wanted something different from our usual fare, so we invited musician David Gungor to help us see spirituality through an artist’s eyes: beauty, story, woundedness, and play. What starts as a talk about music becomes an exploration of navigating Christian deconstruction, church hurt, and the fear that life’s best days might already be gone.

David shares his pastor’s kid upbringing, the family fallout that reshaped his world, and how his songwriting moved from evangelical worship culture toward liturgical art, peacemaking, and honest ambiguity. We dig into his “threefold path” of spiritual growth, why mythos and narrative matter for meaning, and what separates art from propaganda. If you’ve ever wondered why “Christian music” can feel instantly recognizable in the worst way, this part will stick with you: great spiritual art creates space for interpretation, awe, and participation.

Things get even more real when David talks about pandemic-era health scares, anxiety attacks, intrusive thoughts, therapy, and the practice of “learning to just be.” We end somewhere unexpected: sports as structured play, where competition can become communal healing and even a kind of liturgy.
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

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Cheers!