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The Classical Mind

Jared Henderson & Wesley Walker
The Classical Mind
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51 episodes

  • The Classical Mind

    Purgatorio with Heidi White

    28/04/2026 | 1h 23 mins.
    In this episode of The Classical Mind, Fr. Wesley Walker and Dr. Junius Johnson welcome back Heidi White to explore the middle canticle of Dante’s Divine Comedy, the Purgatorio. Is Purgatory “cosmic extra innings” or a “cosmic decontamination chamber” for the saved? How do Inferno and Purgatorio differ? Give a listen as Heidi, Junius, and Wesley discuss the moral and structural architecture of Mount Purgatory, specifically the “Order of Love” (ordo amoris) that governs the seven terraces and how Dante organizes the capital vices.
    Endnotes:
    Heidi: The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis

    Junius: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader by C.S. Lewis
    Wesley: “Ash Wednesday” by T.S. Eliot
    I

    Because I do not hope to turn again
    Because I do not hope
    Because I do not hope to turn
    Desiring this man's gift and that man's scope
    I no longer strive to strive towards such things
    (Why should the agèd eagle stretch its wings?)
    Why should I mourn
    The vanished power of the usual reign?

    Because I do not hope to know
    The infirm glory of the positive hour
    Because I do not think
    Because I know I shall not know
    The one veritable transitory power
    Because I cannot drink
    There, where trees flower, and springs flow, for there is nothing again

    Because I know that time is always time
    And place is always and only place
    And what is actual is actual only for one time
    And only for one place
    I rejoice that things are as they are and
    I renounce the blessèd face
    And renounce the voice
    Because I cannot hope to turn again
    Consequently I rejoice, having to construct something
    Upon which to rejoice

    And pray to God to have mercy upon us
    And pray that I may forget
    These matters that with myself I too much discuss
    Too much explain
    Because I do not hope to turn again
    Let these words answer
    For what is done, not to be done again
    May the judgement not be too heavy upon us

    Because these wings are no longer wings to fly
    But merely vans to beat the air
    The air which is now thoroughly small and dry
    Smaller and dryer than the will
    Teach us to care and not to care Teach us to sit still.

    Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
    Pray for us now and at the hour of our death.

    II

    Lady, three white leopards sat under a juniper-tree
    In the cool of the day, having fed to sateity
    On my legs my heart my liver and that which had been contained
    In the hollow round of my skull. And God said
    Shall these bones live? shall these
    Bones live? And that which had been contained
    In the bones (which were already dry) said chirping:
    Because of the goodness of this Lady
    And because of her loveliness, and because
    She honours the Virgin in meditation,
    We shine with brightness. And I who am here dissembled
    Proffer my deeds to oblivion, and my love
    To the posterity of the desert and the fruit of the gourd.
    It is this which recovers
    My guts the strings of my eyes and the indigestible portions
    Which the leopards reject. The Lady is withdrawn
    In a white gown, to contemplation, in a white gown.
    Let the whiteness of bones atone to forgetfulness.
    There is no life in them. As I am forgotten
    And would be forgotten, so I would forget
    Thus devoted, concentrated in purpose. And God said
    Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only
    The wind will listen. And the bones sang chirping
    With the burden of the grasshopper, saying

    Lady of silences
    Calm and distressed
    Torn and most whole
    Rose of memory
    Rose of forgetfulness
    Exhausted and life-giving
    Worried reposeful
    The single Rose
    Is now the Garden
    Where all loves end
    Terminate torment
    Of love unsatisfied
    The greater torment
    Of love satisfied
    End of the endless
    Journey to no end
    Conclusion of all that
    Is inconclusible
    Speech without word and
    Word of no speech
    Grace to the Mother
    For the Garden
    Where all love ends.

    Under a juniper-tree the bones sang, scattered and shining
    We are glad to be scattered, we did little good to each other,
    Under a tree in the cool of day, with the blessing of sand,
    Forgetting themselves and each other, united
    In the quiet of the desert. This is the land which ye
    Shall divide by lot. And neither division nor unity
    Matters. This is the land. We have our inheritance.

    III

    At the first turning of the second stair
    I turned and saw below
    The same shape twisted on the banister
    Under the vapour in the fetid air
    Struggling with the devil of the stairs who wears
    The deceitul face of hope and of despair.

    At the second turning of the second stair
    I left them twisting, turning below;
    There were no more faces and the stair was dark,
    Damp, jaggèd, like an old man's mouth drivelling, beyond repair,
    Or the toothed gullet of an agèd shark.

    At the first turning of the third stair
    Was a slotted window bellied like the figs's fruit
    And beyond the hawthorn blossom and a pasture scene
    The broadbacked figure drest in blue and green
    Enchanted the maytime with an antique flute.
    Blown hair is sweet, brown hair over the mouth blown,
    Lilac and brown hair;
    Distraction, music of the flute, stops and steps of the mind
    over the third stair,
    Fading, fading; strength beyond hope and despair
    Climbing the third stair.

    Lord, I am not worthy
    Lord, I am not worthy

    but speak the word only.

    IV

    Who walked between the violet and the violet
    Whe walked between
    The various ranks of varied green
    Going in white and blue, in Mary's colour,
    Talking of trivial things
    In ignorance and knowledge of eternal dolour
    Who moved among the others as they walked,
    Who then made strong the fountains and made fresh the springs

    Made cool the dry rock and made firm the sand
    In blue of larkspur, blue of Mary's colour,
    Sovegna vos

    Here are the years that walk between, bearing
    Away the fiddles and the flutes, restoring
    One who moves in the time between sleep and waking, wearing

    White light folded, sheathing about her, folded.
    The new years walk, restoring
    Through a bright cloud of tears, the years, restoring
    With a new verse the ancient rhyme. Redeem
    The time. Redeem
    The unread vision in the higher dream
    While jewelled unicorns draw by the gilded hearse.

    The silent sister veiled in white and blue
    Between the yews, behind the garden god,
    Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke no word

    But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
    Redeem the time, redeem the dream
    The token of the word unheard, unspoken

    Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew

    And after this our exile

    V

    If the lost word is lost, if the spent word is spent
    If the unheard, unspoken
    Word is unspoken, unheard;
    Still is the unspoken word, the Word unheard,
    The Word without a word, the Word within
    The world and for the world;
    And the light shone in darkness and
    Against the Word the unstilled world still whirled
    About the centre of the silent Word.

    O my people, what have I done unto thee.

    Where shall the word be found, where will the word
    Resound? Not here, there is not enough silence
    Not on the sea or on the islands, not
    On the mainland, in the desert or the rain land,
    For those who walk in darkness
    Both in the day time and in the night time
    The right time and the right place are not here
    No place of grace for those who avoid the face
    No time to rejoice for those who walk among noise and deny the voice

    Will the veiled sister pray for
    Those who walk in darkness, who chose thee and oppose thee,
    Those who are torn on the horn between season and season, time and time, between
    Hour and hour, word and word, power and power, those who wait
    In darkness? Will the veiled sister pray
    For children at the gate
    Who will not go away and cannot pray:
    Pray for those who chose and oppose

    O my people, what have I done unto thee.

    Will the veiled sister between the slender
    Yew trees pray for those who offend her
    And are terrified and cannot surrender
    And affirm before the world and deny between the rocks
    In the last desert before the last blue rocks
    The desert in the garden the garden in the desert
    Of drouth, spitting from the mouth the withered apple-seed.

    O my people.

    VI

    Although I do not hope to turn again
    Although I do not hope
    Although I do not hope to turn

    Wavering between the profit and the loss
    In this brief transit where the dreams cross
    The dreamcrossed twilight between birth and dying
    (Bless me father) though I do not wish to wish these things
    From the wide window towards the granite shore
    The white sails still fly seaward, seaward flying
    Unbroken wings

    And the lost heart stiffens and rejoices
    In the lost lilac and the lost sea voices
    And the weak spirit quickens to rebel
    For the bent golden-rod and the lost sea smell
    Quickens to recover
    The cry of quail and the whirling plover
    And the blind eye creates
    The empty forms between the ivory gates
    And smell renews the salt savour of the sandy earth

    This is the time of tension between dying and birth
    The place of solitude where three dreams cross
    Between blue rocks
    But when the voices shaken from the yew-tree drift away
    Let the other yew be shaken and reply.

    Blessèd sister, holy mother, spirit of the fountain, spirit of the garden,
    Suffer us not to mock ourselves with falsehood
    Teach us to care and not to care
    Teach us to sit still
    Even among these rocks,
    Our peace in His will
    And even among these rocks
    Sister, mother
    And spirit of the river, spirit of the sea,
    Suffer me not to be separated

    And let my cry come unto Thee.


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theclassicalmind.com/subscribe
  • The Classical Mind

    "The Tapestry": A Conversation about a New CiRCE Language Arts/Grammar Curriculum with Buck Holler

    01/04/2026 | 13 mins.
    In this episode of The Classical Mind, Dr. Junius Johnson sits down with Buck Holler from the CiRCE Institute to discuss "Tapestry," a new writing and grammar curriculum designed to bridge the gap between early elementary studies and the advanced persuasive essays found in The Lost Tools of Writing. Holler explains that for twenty-five centuries, the study of grammar and literature were considered a single, unified discipline, an organic connection that was largely severed during the Enlightenment. By re-integrating these fields, the curriculum moves away from the modern trend of teaching grammar through isolated, "zigzag" sentences and instead grounds linguistic study in the rich soil of full stories, including Aesop’s fables, Arthurian legends, and sacred Scripture.


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theclassicalmind.com/subscribe
  • The Classical Mind

    The Inaugural Classical Mind Battle of the Books

    16/03/2026 | 30 mins.
    Round 1: Voting will be open from Monday (3/16) until Monday (3/23) ***Vote Now!***
    Round 2: Voting will be open from Monday (3/23) until Saturday (3/30)
    Round 3: The first semi-final round will be Monday (3/30) until Wednesday (4/1); the second semi-final round will be Thursday (4/2) until Saturday (4/4)
    Round 4 (the final): Voting will be open from Monday (4/6) until Monday (4/13)
    In this special bonus episode, Fr. Wesley Walker and Dr. Junius Johnson pivot from their usual textual analysis to the “Battle of the Books.” Harnessing the competitive energy of March Madness, they set out to seed the last twelve books discussed on the podcast into a tournament bracket, where the ultimate winner will be decided by listener votes. The seeding process is guided by two primary criteria: the quasi-objective historical influence of the text and the quasi-subjective literary or theological quality of the work.
    The books included in the tournament are:
    * Lilith by George MacDonald
    * Billy Budd, Sailor by Herman Melville
    * Proslogion by Anselm
    * The Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare
    * Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
    * The Aeneid by Virgil
    * Peter Pan by J.M. Barrie
    * The Federalist Papers
    * The Journey of the Mind to God by Bonaventure
    * Love in the Ruins by Walker Percy
    * The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole
    * The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theclassicalmind.com/subscribe
  • The Classical Mind

    Inferno

    10/03/2026 | 1h 15 mins.
    In this episode, Father Wesley Walker and Dr. Junius Johnson are joined by Dante scholar Catherine Illingworth to navigate the harrowing depths of Dante’s Inferno. The conversation centers on the profound medieval understanding of sin not merely as a broken rule, but as a fundamental distortion of love and human nature. The hosts and their guest explore how the damned souls, such as Francesca and Paolo in Canto V, consistently refuse to take responsibility for their actions, instead blaming external forces like romantic love for their eternal demise. This introduces the foundational concept that hell is a realm where souls have misordered their affections, elevating earthly desires above their love for God and ultimately choosing their own ruin.
    The discussion dives deeply into the mechanics of divine justice, specifically the concept of contrapasso, where the physical punishment seamlessly mirrors the internal reality of the sin. Through vivid examples like Capaneus, whose unyielding pride becomes his own internal and eternal torment , and Odysseus, whose final voyage represents the ultimate theological fraud of attempting to achieve salvation through human merit alone, the episode illustrates how sin deforms the human soul. The group also grapples with the modern reader’s severe discomfort with eternal damnation, contrasting contemporary universalist tendencies with Dante’s vision of a highly physical, meticulously structured afterlife where characters literally become the landscape of their own making.
    Junius has a video on courtly love that may be helpful to understand some of the conversation.
    Catherine Illingworth studied religion and literature at the Yale Divinity School before pursuing a PhD at UCLA in medieval literature with a specialized focus on Dante. She recently stepped away from the academic world after her young son, George, was diagnosed with a rare neurodegenerative genetic disease. In response to the immense financial barriers preventing children from accessing existing, life-saving gene therapies, she founded the Bradstreet Foundation to help families lacking a commercial pathway for treatment. You can learn more about her vital advocacy work at geneforgeorge.org, and follow her updates on TikTok and Instagram by searching for Catherine Illingworth.
    Endnotes:
    * Catherine: “The Waste Land” by T.S. Eliot
    * Junius: No Exit by Jean-Paul Sartre
    * Wesley: Unreal, Unearth by Hozier


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theclassicalmind.com/subscribe
  • The Classical Mind

    BONUS EPISODE: An Introduction to The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri

    10/02/2026 | 56 mins.
    This bonus episode of The Classical Mind serves as “front matter” to prepare listeners for a three-month reading marathon of Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy. Join Wesley and Junius as they explain that the work is a “comedy” not because of humor, but because of its trajectory: it begins in the darkness of Inferno and ends with the “blessed life” and vision of God in Paradiso. The discussion explores the poem’s intricate architecture, consisting of 100 cantos and an interlocking three-line rhyme scheme called terza rima. The hosts emphasize that Dante intentionally wrote the poem to be read using the medieval fourfold method—literal, allegorical, moral (tropological), and eschatological—allowing it to function as both a narrative journey and a transformative spiritual school for the reader.
    The episode also provides the vital historical and cosmological context required to navigate Dante’s world, from the “funnel” of Hell beneath Jerusalem to the mountain of Purgatory on the opposite side of the globe. The hosts explain how the Earth was viewed as the “cosmic dump” at the absolute bottom of a sphere-shaped universe, putting Satan as far from God as possible. Additionally, they break down the 13th-century political strife between the Ghibellines and Guelphs, noting that Dante’s own exile as a White Guelph deeply colors the text. By synthesizing the theology of Aquinas and Bonaventure with the classical poetry of Virgil, Dante created an “encyclopedia of medieval thought” that remains a high point of the Western canon.



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theclassicalmind.com/subscribe

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Conversations on the Great Books. New episodes on the first Tuesday of every month. www.theclassicalmind.com
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