The Urban Farm Podcast with Greg Peterson

In this Episode Returning guest Michael Olson, award-winning radio host, author of Metro Farm, and longtime advocate for local food systems, joins Greg Peterson to explore how small-scale urban and metropolitan farmers can grow food profitably without acquiring more land. Michael shares his Three Laws of the Food Chain, explains why local food gives consumers greater control, and reveals how farmers can compete with large agricultural operations through freshness, specialty crops, higher yields, and smart business strategies. He also reflects on his childhood growing up on a Montana farm, the power of reconnecting city dwellers with food production, and how storytelling can illuminate the conflicts shaping our food systems.
Our Guest: Michael is an award-winning radio host, author, educator, and passionate urban farmer who has spent decades helping people reconnect with their food. Through his broadcasting, writing, and advocacy, he inspires communities to grow food, embrace sustainable living, and build stronger, healthier, and more resilient local food systems.
Key Topics & Entities
Michael Olson and Metro Farm
Michael Olson's Three Laws of the Food Chain
Urban farming and metropolitan agriculture
Local food systems and food security
Small-scale farming profitability
Farm business strategy and market competition
Intensive production on limited land
Farmers of Forty Centuries by F. H. King
Fresh, flavorful, and specialty crops
Direct-to-consumer sales and farmers markets
High-value flowers and specialty plant production
Food production in cities and urban land use
The Food Chain radio show and agricultural storytelling
Childhood farm life and reconnecting people with food

Key Questions Answered
What are Michael Olson's Three Laws of the Food Chain?
First, agriculture is the foundation of civilization. Second, the farther food travels from its source, the less control consumers have over it. Third, cheap food isn't necessarily cheap when its broader health and social costs are considered. Together, these principles explain why Michael believes reconnecting people with food production matters.
How can a small urban farm compete with large agricultural operations?
Small farms can avoid competing directly on commodity prices and instead focus on what large operations struggle to provide: exceptional freshness, unique varieties, flavor, specialty products, and direct relationships with customers. The goal is to serve a market niche that larger producers cannot easily satisfy.
Can someone earn a living farming on a small piece of land?
Yes. Michael describes small farms that generate substantial income by maximizing productivity and selecting crops for specific markets. His examples include a nursery producing hundreds of thousands of cuttings in a compact space and flower growers who built a wedding-flower business around unusual varieties.
What is the difference between gardening and farming?
Michael describes gardening as an activity that enriches food, personal well-being, and one's connection with living things. Farming is a business that requires market awareness, long hours, competitive strategy, and careful decisions about how to earn a living from the land.
Why is Farmers of Forty Centuries relevant to modern urban agriculture?
F. H. King's book examined intensive agricultural systems in Asia that supported many people on small parcels of land while producing crops for sale. Michael draws on this example to show that high productivity per acre is not new and that small farms can succeed without expanding their acreage.
What business strategies help small farms increase profitability?
Michael outlines ten strategies for improving farm productivity and income. Examples discussed include increasing yield, improving product selection, growing distinctive varieties, and finding market opportunities that large-scale competitors cannot serve as effectively.
Why are freshness and flavor advantages for local farmers?
Small farmers can harvest crops close to the time of sale and deliver them directly to consumers or nearby chefs. Unlike large operations that must harvest and ship at scale, local growers can prioritize flavor, variety, and products tailored to their customers.
How can cities preserve agriculture while continuing to develop?
Michael sees a conflict between development pressures and the need to preserve productive urban land. Small farms, educational farm visits, community connections, and direct food sales can help cities retain meaningful relationships with agriculture while serving urban populations.
How did Michael Olson develop his radio show, The Food Chain?
Michael took over a traditional Saturday morning agriculture program and transformed it into a storytelling show about people and conflicts surrounding food. He renamed it The Food Chain after realizing that food connects with far more listeners than farming alone.
What role does conflict play in effective food-system storytelling?
Michael looks for competing interests, opposing perspectives, and unresolved questions that capture attention. Stories about small farmers facing development pressures or questions about how food markets operate help audiences understand the larger forces shaping agriculture.
Episode Highlights
Michael Olson explains why agriculture is the foundation of civilization and why distance from food production reduces consumer control.
He shares how growing potatoes in twelve 15-gallon nursery tubs produced 60 pounds of potatoes.
Michael explains why Metro Farm focuses on business strategy, helping small farmers earn a living rather than simply grow food.
Greg Peterson recalls harvesting produce from an 80-by-40-foot property and selling out at market by noon, earning $300–$400.
Michael describes how a small nursery, specialty flower growers, and other farmers discovered profitable niches by serving needs larger competitors overlooked.
He explains how small farms can increase productivity and income without increasing acreage.
Michael recalls growing up on his grandparents' 320-acre Montana farm and discusses bringing that connection with food and agriculture back into cities.
He shares how conflict, compelling characters, and storytelling transformed his radio program into The Food Chain.

Calls to Action & Resources
Michael Olson's book, radio shows, and resources: MetroFarm.com
Urban Farm Podcast episode show notes: UrbanFarm.org/MetroFarm
Reference book: Farmers of Forty Centuries by F. H. King — a historical exploration of intensive agriculture and productivity on small parcels of land.

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.Click HERE to learn more!*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

Soil Health, Beneficial Insects, and Growing with Nature
In this Episode Farmer Greg talks with Kristin Battafarano, a horticultural consultant and educator with more than three decades of experience helping people grow healthier gardens. Kristin shares how an unexpected journey from illustration and office work to organic farming transformed her life and connected her with the soil, plants, and people who share her passion for growing food. She takes listeners on a tour of her Arizona garden, exploring wood-chip mulch, rainwater absorption, cover crops, volunteer plants, beneficial insects, and creative ways to recycle nutrients. Kristin also explains why healthy soil and thoughtful plant care can reduce the need for chemical treatments. Her message is simple: stay curious, experiment in your garden, and create a place where both people and nature can thrive.
Our Guest: Kristin is a horticultural consultant and educator who has spent more than three decades helping people create healthier, more resilient landscapes. Her journey began on a small organic farm in Tempe, where she discovered a deep connection to soil, plants, and the natural world. Since then, she has taught horticulture and consulted on hundreds of landscapes, building bridges between science, practical application, and the people who care for our shared landscapes.
Key Topics
Kristin Battafarano — Horticultural consultant and educator with more than 30 years of experience.
Organic farming — Kristin's introduction to hands-on growing and her connection to food and nature.
Matt Sur — Organic farmer who mentored Kristin and contributed to the low-desert vegetable planting calendar.
Soil health and microbial activity — How organic matter, mulch, and soil organisms contribute to healthier growing conditions.
Wood-chip mulch — Using layers of woody material to improve soil, retain moisture, and recycle nutrients.
Rainwater harvesting and swales — Designing garden spaces to absorb rainfall rather than allowing runoff.
Cover crops — Using clover and other plants to protect soil, add nitrogen, and support soil structure.
Volunteer plants and seed saving — Allowing plants such as cherry tomatoes, carrots, and trees to reseed naturally.
Beneficial insects and pollinators — Recognizing the roles of native bees, flies, wasps, and other garden organisms.
Desert gardening — Working with Arizona's heat, irrigation water, mineral salts, and challenging growing conditions.
Integrated pest management — Identifying insects and assessing the severity of infestations before deciding whether treatment is necessary.
Organic matter and nutrient cycling — Reusing rabbit litter, plant material, and other organic resources in the garden.
Natural plant growth and pruning — Preserving blossoms, healthy foliage, and the movement and beauty of plants.
Curiosity and experimentation — Treating garden challenges as opportunities to learn and improve.

Key Questions Answered
How did Kristin discover her passion for gardening?
After finding office work and digital illustration unfulfilling, Kristin began exploring her love of nature and plants. Working on an organic farm with Matt Sur gave her a sense of purpose, connection, and joy that changed the direction of her life.
How can wood-chip mulch improve a garden?
Kristin describes using thick layers of wood chips to encourage microbial activity, build soil, and retain moisture. As the material breaks down, it contributes organic matter and nutrients to the soil ecosystem.
How can homeowners manage rainwater in desert gardens?
Kristin uses swales and soil-building techniques that allow rainfall to soak into her property. She contrasts this with neighboring yards where water collects and runs into the street.
Why are cover crops useful in a vegetable garden?
Cover crops such as clover protect the soil surface, help improve soil structure, and can contribute nitrogen. They also provide an alternative to maintaining conventional turf in some garden spaces.
Should gardeners eliminate every insect they find?
No. Kristin recommends identifying the insect and understanding what it does before deciding whether intervention is needed. Many insects contribute to pollination, pest control, and a healthy garden ecosystem.
What causes plants to struggle in Arizona's soils?
Kristin explains that mineral salts and sodium can accumulate through irrigation. These conditions can alter soil chemistry and cause nutrient lockout, preventing plant roots from absorbing nutrients even when those nutrients are present.
How can gardeners reuse household materials to support plant growth?
Kristin uses her pet rabbit's litter as a garden resource. The nitrogen-rich material, combined with organic matter, helped support a productive experimental garden with good moisture retention and fewer weeds.
Why does Kristin encourage less aggressive pruning?
Repeatedly shearing shrubs into geometric shapes removes foliage and blossoms, can increase water demands, and may expose plants to scorching. More natural growth preserves flowers, supports wildlife, and allows plants to move gracefully in the wind.
What did Kristin learn from struggling with soil-dwelling isopods?
Thick wood-chip mulch created favorable habitat for isopods, but their numbers became high enough to damage seedlings and crops. The experience taught her that even beneficial soil organisms can create challenges that require observation and adaptation.
What does Kristin consider her greatest professional accomplishment?
She is proud of bridging organic gardening and conventional horticultural practices. By understanding both approaches, she can identify useful practices from each and help introduce better growing methods to a broader audience.
Episode Highlights
Kristin explains how grief, career dissatisfaction, and a desire to work with nature led her to organic farming.
Her first day working with Matt Sur taught her the value of hands-on learning, trust, and connection with the natural world.
Kristin describes transforming a former grass-covered yard into a productive garden using wood chips, swales, and volunteer trees.
She shares how cover crops, sweet peppers, asparagus, sweet potatoes, citrus, and self-seeding cherry tomatoes contribute to her garden.
A creative experiment with rabbit litter produced a thriving garden that retained moisture remarkably well despite having no irrigation connection.
Kristin explains why gardeners should identify insects before treating them and why plant health is central to pest management.
She discusses irrigation-related mineral salts, nutrient lockout, and soil treatments that can help address these challenges.
Kristin reflects on curiosity, perseverance, and the importance of designing gardens that offer beauty, wildlife habitat, and a place to observe nature.

Calls to Action & Resources
Urban Farm Podcast show notes: urbanfarm.org/stonesoupgarden
Kristin Battafarano - Email: kbattafarano@gmail.com
Harmony Horticultural Consulting: Search for Harmony Horticultural Consulting online to find Kristin's consulting services.
Recommended book: Into the Wild- by Jon Krakauer. Kristin recommends it for its exploration of questioning conventional expectations and pursuing a different path.
Books that influenced Kristin: Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow and Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway.
Cover crop resources: Grow Organic offers cover crop seeds and information for gardeners interested in experimenting with different varieties.

Visit urbanfarm.org/stonesoupgarden for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!
Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.Click HERE to learn more!*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

On this replay of the Rosie on the House radio show Host Rome and Farmer Greg welcome Rachel Opio, founder of Little Lighthouse Farm, a certified organic urban farm in central Phoenix, Arizona, to explore how growing food in small spaces can strengthen communities and reconnect people with the land. Inspired by her late mother, Lane Bales, Rachel transformed a family garden into a productive quarter-acre farm focused on soil health, biodiversity, fresh local food, and community education. She shares practical approaches to regenerative agriculture, companion planting, seed saving, and growing food in the Sonoran Desert. Rachel also explains how small urban farms can improve access to fresh produce, preserve growing knowledge, and contribute to a stronger local food system. Her advice for beginners is simple: start with one plant, grow something you love to eat, and let your garden grow from there.
Key Topics & Entities
Rachel Opio — Founder and farmer at Little Lighthouse Farm in central Phoenix.
Little Lighthouse Farm — Certified organic urban farm focused on nutrient-dense food, community access, and education.
Farmer Greg Peterson — Urban farming educator, founder of UrbanFarm.org, and host of the Urban Farm Podcast.
Urban agriculture — Growing food in residential yards, containers, and small urban spaces.
Regenerative agriculture — Building soil health, increasing biodiversity, and supporting a living ecosystem.
Certified organic farming — Annual inspections, detailed recordkeeping, traceability, and certification requirements.
Local food systems — Connecting growers and consumers through direct sales, farm stands, restaurants, and local distributors.
Soil health — Balancing nutrients, organic matter, airspace, water, and living organisms.
Companion planting — Combining compatible plants, including tomatoes, basil, and marigolds, to support a diverse garden.
No-till gardening — Protecting soil structure and using chickens to help cultivate garden areas.
Seed saving and climate adaptation — Saving seeds suited to Phoenix's Sonoran Desert conditions.
Food access and community inclusion — Accepting SNAP/EBT, WIC, and senior farmers market nutrition benefits.
Pollinator stewardship — Maintaining bees, perennial flowering plants, and habitat for beneficial wildlife.
Beginner gardening — Starting small with a container, herb, or favorite edible plant.

Key Questions Answered
How did Rachel Opio become an urban farmer?
Rachel originally worked in technology, although farming was something she had always wanted to do. After her mother passed away, Rachel returned to the family garden to clear the weeds and found that the space could feed her household and eventually her neighbors. That realization inspired her to turn her quarter-acre property into Little Lighthouse Farm.
Why did Rachel name her farm Little Lighthouse Farm?
Her mother loved lighthouses and spent decades helping children learn to read. Rachel saw her mother as a guiding light in the community, making the name a tribute to her mother's life and a reflection of the farm's mission: guiding people back to the land.
Why does Rachel prioritize locally grown organic food?
Rachel emphasizes freshness, nutrient density, and accessibility. Food harvested close to the time it is eaten spends less time in transportation and storage, while local production helps consumers connect with the people growing their food.
What does regenerative agriculture look like on a small urban farm?
Rachel focuses on soil health, regular soil testing, companion planting, biodiversity, and avoiding tillage. Her chickens help cultivate designated garden areas, while bees and perennial flowering plants support pollination and habitat.
How does Little Lighthouse Farm make fresh food more accessible?
Rachel sells directly to customers through online orders and a farm stand, and supplies restaurants, hospital systems, and grocery stores through a local distributor. She also accepts SNAP/EBT, WIC, and senior farmers market nutrition benefits.
Why is seed saving especially important in the Sonoran Desert?
Seeds suited to other climates may struggle in Phoenix's heat and growing conditions. Saving seeds from successful plants helps Rachel maintain varieties adapted to her local environment and reduces dependence on purchasing new seeds.
What should a first-time gardener grow?
Rachel recommends starting with one plant in a manageable space, such as a container or cup. Choose something you enjoy eating. Herbs are particularly useful because they are relatively easy to grow and can be expensive to purchase.
How can small urban farms strengthen local food systems?
They bring food production closer to consumers, respond to neighborhood needs, provide educational opportunities, preserve seed and growing knowledge, and create habitat. They complement larger food systems rather than attempting to replace them.
How can a gardener recognize healthy soil?
Rachel describes healthy soil as dark, earthy-smelling, light, and fluffy. She also suggests simple hands-on observations, including moistening soil and checking whether it can be shaped into a snake. Greg highlights five components of healthy soil: dirt, airspace, water, organic matter, and living organisms.
What does Rachel hope to see in the future?
She hopes to increase biodiversity, improve the farm's cooling microclimate, see more neighbors growing food, and inspire community garden clubs and informal neighborhood learning networks.
Episode Highlights
Rachel's journey from a career in technology to founding a certified organic urban farm, inspired by grief and her mother's legacy.
How a quarter-acre Phoenix property can grow food for a family, neighbors, and paying customers.
Why local food, fresh harvesting, and organic growing practices matter to Rachel.
A tour of Little Lighthouse Farm, including desert-adapted plants, raised beds, chickens, fruit trees, containers, and a beehive.
How Rachel uses companion planting, no-till practices, biodiversity, and soil testing to support a healthy garden.
The importance of saving seeds adapted to the local climate and growing conditions.
How a farm stand customer discovering freshly harvested beets sparked a spontaneous exchange of recipes and gardening knowledge.
Why beginners should start with one plant and how thousands of small growers could strengthen their communities.

Calls to Action & Resources
Little Lighthouse Farm — littlelighthousefarm.com
Little Lighthouse Farm on Instagram — @littlelighthousefarm
Great American Seed Up — greatamericanseedup.org — Explore open-pollinated, non-GMO heirloom seeds and bulk seed buying.
Urban Farm — UrbanFarm.org — Learn about urban food production and growing your own food.
Garden consulting — Contact Rachel through her website to explore help with garden layout, companion planting, and growing food at home.

Take action: Plant one seed, start one herb, or grow one vegetable you love to eat. Share what you grow with a neighbor, save seeds when you can, and help bring food production back into your community.
Our Guest:
Visit www.urbanfarm.org/1012 for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!
Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.Click HERE to learn more!*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

With Seed Expert Bill McDorman
Join us for our monthly live Seed Chat at SeedChat.org
What makes a seed viable, and how do you know when it's ready to grow? In this episode of Seed Chat, Greg Peterson of the Urban Farm Podcast joins seed expert Bill McDorman to explore the art and science of harvesting mature, viable seeds from vegetables, fruits, and wild plants. They share practical techniques for saving seeds from cucumbers, squash, tomatoes, peppers, beans, lettuce, and more, explaining when to harvest, how to dry and process seeds, and why nature's built-in diversity matters. The conversation also explores the importance of seed saving, locally adapted varieties, and community seed networks in building a more resilient food system. Their message is simple: when in doubt, save the seeds and see what happens.
Key Topics & Entities
Seed viability and germination testing
Seed maturity and harvesting techniques
Saving cucumber and winter squash seeds
Harvesting seeds from grocery-store produce
Seed saving from tomatoes, peppers, melons, and apples
Wet seed processing and fermentation
Harvesting and storing beans, peas, and cowpeas
Lettuce flowering, seed collection, and winnowing
Natural reseeding and letting plants self-propagate
Genetic diversity and locally adapted seeds
Native Seeds/SEARCH and traditional seed varieties
Masanobu Fukuoka and The One-Straw Revolution
Going to Seed and its seed-sharing program
Community seed libraries and regional seed networks

Key Questions Answered
What makes a seed viable?
A viable seed is mature enough to germinate and grow into a plant, and it has remained healthy enough to survive conditions such as extreme heat, excessive moisture, and seed-borne pathogens. Seeds don't all become viable at the same moment; there is natural variation within a plant's seed production.
How do you know when cucumbers are ready for seed saving?
Choose a healthy, desirable cucumber and mark it on the vine. Leave it to mature well beyond the eating stage until it becomes large and often turns orange. The seeds should fill out rather than remain flat and immature.
Should winter squash be cured before saving its seeds?
Yes. Leaving winter squash in the field for several days after harvest maturity, particularly during warm weather, allows the seeds to finish maturing before the squash is opened. Summer squash should also be left on the plant well beyond the usual eating stage.
Can you save viable seeds from grocery-store produce?
Often, yes. Tomatoes are frequently suitable for seed saving, and bell pepper seeds may be more mature if the fruit is allowed to turn red before processing. Melons and squash may also provide useful seeds. However, seeds from hybrid or seedless varieties can produce unpredictable results.
Will seeds from an apple grow into the same kind of apple?
Usually not. Apple flowers can receive pollen from different trees, creating new genetic combinations. Growing an apple tree from seed can take three to ten years to evaluate, and the resulting fruit may be better, worse, or simply different from the original.
Is fermenting seeds necessary when saving tomatoes and cucumbers?
No. Seeds can germinate successfully without fermentation. However, wet processing and fermentation can help reduce certain seed-borne disease problems and may improve storage and handling, particularly when processing larger quantities.
How should you harvest and store bean and pea seeds?
Allow the pods to dry on the vine until they begin to open. If weather conditions make that impractical, pull the vines and hang them indoors until the pods dry completely. This helps the seeds mature and prepares them for storage.
What is the best way to harvest lettuce seeds?
Let lettuce flower and develop its characteristic fluffy seed heads. Watch for a large number of mature seed heads, then cut the stalks, turn them upside down, and shake them into a paper bag. Winnow away the fluff and chaff before storing the seeds.
Why should gardeners allow some plants to reseed naturally?
Plants can respond to their local conditions and emerge when the timing is right. By allowing crops such as basil, cilantro, lettuce, and kale to reseed, gardeners can encourage plants that are already growing successfully in their gardens.
What should you do when you're unsure whether a seed is viable?
Save it and try growing it. Bill emphasizes that seed maturity varies among species and even among individual seeds. Experimentation can reveal surprising germination potential and teach gardeners more about the resilience of plants.
How does seed diversity strengthen local food systems?
Growing many varieties helps gardeners discover which plants perform best in their particular conditions. Sharing seeds and observations through community networks helps preserve genetic diversity and makes locally adapted crops more accessible.
How does the Going to Seed program help gardeners?
Going to Seed collects seeds contributed by growers, mixes diverse varieties into regional seed-sharing collections, and distributes them with educational materials. The goal is to help gardeners discover varieties suited to their local environments while rebuilding genetic diversity.
Episode Highlights
Viability starts with maturity. Seeds need sufficient time to develop, and harvesting too early can leave them flat, immature, or unable to germinate.
Let vegetables mature beyond the dinner table. Cucumbers, summer squash, and winter squash need extra time on the plant or additional curing before their seeds are ready.
Experiment with grocery-store produce. Tomatoes, peppers, melons, and other fruits can be useful seed sources, although the resulting plants may vary depending on the variety and its genetics.
Fermentation has a purpose beyond germination. Wet processing can help address seed-borne diseases, though it isn't always necessary for home gardeners.
Let nature do some of the work. Allowing selected plants to reseed naturally can encourage crops that are well suited to the garden's conditions.
Save seeds even when you're uncertain. Different plants mature at different rates, and some seeds can continue developing after flowers or seed-bearing material are harvested.
Diversity is a practical investment. Bill recommends growing as many varieties as possible to discover which ones thrive locally.
Community seed sharing multiplies the benefits. Going to Seed and local seed libraries connect gardeners, preserve varieties, and help identify crops suited to different regions.

Calls to Action & Resources
Seed Chat SeedChat.org: Join live conversations about seeds, seed saving, and resilient gardening.
Going to Seed GoingToSeed.org: Explore diverse seed collections, regional seed-sharing programs, and opportunities to contribute seeds.
Native Seeds/SEARCH Learn about traditional crop varieties and the preservation of regional seed diversity.
Urban Farm Podcast UrbanFarm.org: Listen to conversations about growing food, saving seeds, and strengthening local food systems.
Seed Library Network SeedLibraryNetwork.org Explore seed libraries and community resources; the episode mentions a recent Urban Farm Podcast conversation with Rebecca Newburn, approximately episode 1006.

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.You can chat with Greg to get permaculture based feedback.Click HERE to learn more!*Disclosure: Some of the links in our podcast show notes and blog posts are affiliate links and if you go through them to make a purchase, we will earn a nominal commission at no cost to you. We offer links to items recommended by our podcast guests and guest writers as a service to our audience and these items are not selected because of the commission we receive from your purchases. We know the decision is yours, and whether you decide to buy something is completely up to you.

with Jennifer Miller & Erin Torgerson
In this Episode - What if small farmers could build trust with their customers without taking on the cost and paperwork of USDA Organic certification? That’s the idea behind Certified Naturally Grown (CNG), a grassroots organization helping farmers show customers how they grow their food. In this episode, Greg Peterson sits down with Jennifer Miller and Erin Torgerson from CNG to talk about how peer inspections, transparency, and a strong farming community help make that possible. Along the way, they explore the importance of local food, saving seeds, sharing knowledge, and making good food more accessible to everyone.
Our Guests: Jennifer is the interim executive director of Certified Naturally Grown. From working on farms around the world to running her own farm and directing two food hubs, Jennifer's hands-on experience proves one thing, food is her love language.
Erin is the communications and certification coordinator of Certified Naturally Grown. While filming a student documentary about a local farm-to-table restaurant, Erin caught her first glimpse of a biodiverse small-scale farm and hasn't looked back.
Certified Naturally Grown is an organization that offers peer review certification to farmers and beekeepers producing food, flowers, and fiber for their local communities by working in harmony with nature without relying on synthetic chemicals or GMOs.
Key Topics
Certified Naturally Grown (CNG): A farmer-led certification program built around trust, transparency, and community.
CNG and USDA Organic: How CNG offers an alternative for farmers who find USDA Organic certification too expensive or complicated.
Peer inspections: Farmers visit and review one another’s operations, creating opportunities to learn as well as verify growing practices.
Participatory Guarantee Systems (PGS): A community-based approach to building confidence in how food is produced.
Making farming work financially: The challenges small-scale farmers face when balancing good growing practices with the realities of running a business.
Five CNG certification programs: Produce and flowers, livestock, apiaries, mushrooms, and aquaponics.
Transparency for consumers: How customers can learn more about participating farms and review inspection information.
Local food systems: Why connecting farmers, consumers, and communities matters.
Food hubs and distribution: The challenges of getting locally grown food to the people who want it.
Natural beekeeping: Approaches to raising bees with attention to their health and well-being.
Aquaponics: Growing food through a system that combines fish and plants.
Seed saving: Preserving seed varieties and helping farmers maintain greater control over their growing systems.
Farmer education and mentorship: How sharing experience can help new and established growers succeed.
Understanding the food system: Why building a better food future involves more than just how we grow food.

Key Questions Answered
Why was Certified Naturally Grown created?
CNG was developed to help smaller farmers demonstrate their growing practices and build customer confidence without the expense and administrative burden that can come with USDA Organic certification.
How is CNG different from USDA Organic?
CNG uses standards based on the USDA National Organic Program, but it operates as a separate, community-based certification program. It is not the same as USDA Organic certification.
How does the certification process work?
Farmers apply to the program and participate in peer inspections. These visits help verify growing practices while giving farmers a chance to exchange ideas and learn from one another.
Is CNG affordable for small farmers?
The organization uses a sliding-scale dues structure, with options intended to make participation more accessible to farms of different sizes and circumstances.
How can consumers learn more about a CNG farm?
Consumers can visit the CNG website to find participating farms and review available application and inspection information.
What do farmers gain beyond certification?
They become part of a community where growers can share knowledge, build relationships, and learn from people facing many of the same challenges.
Why does seed saving matter?
Saving seeds helps preserve varieties and gives growers a more active role in maintaining the plants they depend on.
What makes building a local food system challenging?
Growing food is only one part of the picture. Farmers also need ways to distribute their harvest, reach customers, and make their businesses financially viable.
What advice emerges for farmers who want to grow differently?
Look for ways to build trust with customers, connect with other growers, and learn from a community of people working toward similar goals.
Episode Highlights
Jennifer Miller and Erin Torgerson explain how Certified Naturally Grown helps farmers demonstrate their growing practices and earn customer trust.
Learn why some small farms look for an alternative to the cost and paperwork associated with USDA Organic certification.
Discover how peer inspections turn certification into an opportunity for farmers to learn from one another.
Explore CNG’s five certification areas, from produce and flowers to livestock, beekeeping, mushrooms, and aquaponics.
Find out how transparency helps consumers learn more about the farms producing their food.
Hear why local food distribution, food hubs, and the economics of small-scale farming matter.
Explore the role of seed saving in protecting agricultural diversity and helping growers become more self-reliant.
Learn how community, mentorship, and sharing practical knowledge can help build a stronger food system.

Calls to Action & Resources
Certified Naturally Grown: https://www.naturallygrown.org/
Learn about the program, explore the farm directory, and find out how certification works.
Contact Jennifer Miller: jennifer@naturallygrown.org
Contact Erin Torgerson: erin@naturallygrown.org
CNG Farm School: Explore educational resources for farmers.
CNG Field Notes: Listen to the organization’s podcast.
Book recommendation — The Seed Farmer by Dan Brisebois: A resource for anyone interested in seed production and seed saving.
Book recommendation — The Grapes of Wrath: Jennifer’s recommended read.
Seed Chat: https://seedchat.org/ — Continue exploring conversations about seeds and their role in our food system.
Visit https://urbanfarm.org/certifiednaturallygrown for the show notes on this episode, and access to our full podcast library!

Need a little bit of advice or just a feedback on your design for your yard or garden?The Urban Farm Team is offering consults over the phone or zoom. Get the benefits of a personalized garden and yard space analysis without the cost of trip charges.You can chat with Greg or choose one of the senior members of our Urban Farm team to get permaculture based feedback.Click