Coaching Culture

What happens after you finally admit the grind stopped working? That is where part two of this conversation with journalist Lindsay Crouse picks up.
Lindsay and JP dig into the physical cost of never backing off, talk through Simone Biles' 2021 Olympic decision, and unpack the "never enough" trap that keeps high achievers chasing a finish line that keeps moving. Lindsay also shares why she left a stable job for an uncertain one at The New York Times, and why she believes quitting is a muscle you build through practice, not a moment you arrive at with total certainty.
If part one left you rethinking what perseverance actually costs, this episode gives you a way to start putting it into practice.
Chapters(00:00) The Michael Phelps Burnout Pattern
(01:22) Jesse Diggins and Knowing the Limit
(02:48) Rest Was the Same as Decline
(03:40) Getting Athletes to Trust the Data
(04:51) The Batman Scar: Icing an Injury
(09:08) Simone Biles and the Real Spotlight
(13:29) The Never-Enough Trap
(17:00) Wants vs Needs
(19:30) Why She Left a Stable Job at the Times
(23:00) Building the Muscle to Quit
TOC 3-2-13 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.
"Our culture teaches us that quitting is a failure, that we didn't try hard enough. But quitting can be the first step to something better."
Lindsay Crouse
"I think about some of the people I respect a lot. They've quit things, and I've really respected them for how they quit and the reasons why they quit."
JP Nerbun
"You just have to build this muscle around quitting. That's really the only way that we can grow."
Lindsay Crouse
2 Questions for Your TeamQ1: What's one situation where you're pushing an athlete, or yourself, toward more, when the data or the body is already telling you it's time to pull back?
Q2: If quitting is a muscle, when's the last time you actually practiced it, on purpose, in something small?
1 Resource to Go DeeperThe Case for Quitting by Lindsay Crouse
A 15 year New York Times veteran makes the research-backed case that stepping back is often the braver, smarter choice than pushing through.
Find the book here
Key TakeawaysYour Mind Lies About Your Limits, Your Body Doesn't
Simone Biles Didn't Quit, She Read the Information
Define "Enough" Before the Season Starts, Not During It
Separate What You Want From What You Need
Quitting Gets Easier With Practice, Not Certainty
The Traits That Made You Good Don't Disappear When You Walk Away
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Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

"Quit" might be the most forbidden word in sports. Journalist Lindsay Crouse says that's exactly the problem.
Lindsay spent 15 years at The New York Times covering the extremes of human performance before turning the question on herself: what if the constant pushing through wasn't actually working? Her new book, The Case for Quitting, argues that stepping back is often the smarter, braver choice, not the weaker one. Lindsay and JP unpack why our brains default to staying on a path long after it stops serving us, and how Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile only after he stopped training entirely for three days.
This one is for any coach who has ever told an athlete to push through pain that wasn't actually productive, and for any coach who has done the same thing to themselves.
Chapters
(00:00) Welcome and Book Origins
(00:43) Why She Wrote The Case for Quitting
(03:53) Where the Need to Persevere Comes From
(07:01) JP's Basketball Story
(12:22) Regret Research and Spotlight Effect
(19:07) Fromm's Having vs Being
(21:29) Is Grit Sometimes a Bad Habit
(26:04) Why Coaches Can't Shut It Down
(27:31) Bannister's Rest Before the Mile Record
TOC 3-2-1
3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.
"Quitting is not simply a failure of resolve or an easy way out. Often it's a courageous first step to something better."
Lindsay Crouse
"Our brains prefer not to decide. They prefer to slide, to continue down the path we're already on."
Lindsay Crouse
"My identity wasn't even just a basketball player. My identity was the guy who had this dream."
JP Nerbun
2 Questions for Your Team
Q1: Where in your season are you "sliding" instead of deciding, just because it's the path you already know?
Q2: If you set a deadline to reassess one commitment on your team right now, what would that deadline be, and what would make you actually keep it?
1 Resource to Go Deeper
The Case for Quitting by Lindsay Crouse
A 15 year New York Times veteran makes the research-backed case that stepping back is often the braver, smarter choice than pushing through.
Find the book here
Key Takeaways
Perseverance Is Not the Same Thing as Success
Staying Is a Decision, Not a Default
Set a Deadline Before You Start
We Regret the Roads We Never Tried, Not the Ones We Left
Rest Isn't the Absence of Discipline, It's a Tool
You Don't Leave Your Strengths Behind When You Quit Something
Get the notes and tools:
tocculture.com
Join TOC Coach, community, courses, and live coaching:
tocculture.com
Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Are your three closest teammates a friend group, or a clique the rest of the roster feels shut out of?
JP Nerbun, Betsy Butterick, and Nate Sanderson dig into Level 4 leadership this week: the real difference between a clique and a close friend group, why almost no team builds a genuine culture of honest feedback, and Betsy's own story as a Division I captain who left a program midseason.
Whether you are trying to break up an unhealthy clique or support a player through a transfer decision, this conversation will change how you think about what it takes to lead a team.
Chapters(00:00) Intro
(06:10) Cliques vs close friend groups
(09:40) Coaching moves that break up cliques
(13:13) Creating spaces everyone is invited to
(15:11) Why so few players call teammates out
(19:23) The volleyball team feedback workshop
(23:46) Coaching courage into hard talks
(27:44) How to repair after conflict
(31:02) Why players tear themselves down first
(32:40) Learning to give feedback, not reaction
(34:30) Does transferring make you disloyal
(36:00) Betsy's story of quitting a D1 team
(39:55) Why quitting takes more courage to do
(42:35) We judge quitting but not the cost
TOC 3-2-13 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to the episode's most actionable ideas.
"We make it out to be this perseverance: drive hard, sit at the end of the bench, put up with a tough coach, and get through it all. We glorify that to an extent that's probably not healthy."
- J.P. Nerbun
"We're really good at judging on the back end, and we're really bad at counting the cost on the front end."
- Nate Sanderson
"The quitting part was about being a good teammate to myself. That was the first time in my life I can remember putting myself before the team."
- Betsy Butterick
2 Questions for Your TeamQ1: When was the last time you gave a teammate honest feedback even though it felt uncomfortable? What stopped you the times you didn't?
Q2: If you're in a tight group of friends on this team, are you making sure everyone else always has an open door in, too?
1 Resource to Go DeeperThe Culture Captain by JP Nerbun
This episode draws on the book's final chapter, leading from the bench, and the stories of athletes like Abby Wambach and Tom Brady who led without always starting. Comes with a free field guide.
Visit culturecaptain.net here
Key TakeawaysA tight friend group isn't automatically a toxic clique
Every athlete doesn't need to feel close to every teammate, just to someone
Most teams don't have a culture of feedback, they have one or two truth-tellers
Give players a script for feedback and it's still excruciating, and that's normal
We're good at judging quitting after the fact and bad at examining the cost before it
Quitting can be the most self-respecting decision a captain ever makes
Get the notes and tools:
tocculture.com
Join TOC Coach, community, courses, and live coaching:
tocculture.com
Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Most coaches have someone they pour into. Almost none of them have someone who pours back.
In part two with Zach Brandon, JP and Zach go deeper into what it actually takes to develop coaches — not players, coaches — and why that investment may be the most overlooked lever in any program. Zach shares the story that reoriented his entire career: a coach who could not remember his own family moments and discovered he was missing from most of the photos on the wall. The conversation builds into his core coaching framework — Impact = Individual Capabilities x Environment, minus Interference — and why the internal interference is almost always the harder, more important work.
This one is for any coach who suspects they might be their own biggest obstacle, or who has never stopped long enough to ask: who is developing me?
Chapters
(00:00) Intro
(05:06) Best Coach Dev at the Diamondbacks
(08:42) Daily Leadership Shares
(10:32) The Catalyst Story
(13:43) The Hardest Conversation
(14:43) Who Pours Into the Coach?
(16:05) Coach Wellbeing and Player Culture
(19:21) What's Wrong in Today's Landscape
(20:07) The Coaching Impact Equation
(26:47) Internal vs. External Interference
(28:04) Can't Read Label from Inside the Jar
(30:15) Connecting with Zach Brandon
TOC 3-2-1
3 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to this episode's most actionable ideas.
"Expectations are oftentimes funneled one directionally. Agreements are shared — it's like, hey, we're on the same page and we're both giving the green light to what this looks like in action."
— Zach Brandon
"Who pours into you? You're the person that pours into everybody else as a coach or as a leader. And yet, do you have anyone for yourself?"
— Zach Brandon
"You can't read the label from inside the jar."
— Zach Brandon
2 Questions for Your Team
Q1: Think about one standard you currently enforce with your team. Did your athletes or staff help create it? If not, what would it look like to move from expectation to shared agreement this week?
Q2: Who pours into you? Name one person in your life who serves as a genuine thought partner for your own growth. If you can't name one, what would it take to find one?
1 Resource to Go Deeper
Winning with Words — newsletter by Zach Brandon
Principles, stories, and mindset shifts to help coaches and leaders win more while living better. Zach also offers a free initial coaching call for anyone exploring what is getting in their way.
Visit zachbrandoncoaching.com
Key Takeaways
Shared agreements beat handed-down expectations
The best coach development happens inside time you already have
Who pours into the coach?
Coach wellbeing is a player development strategy
Your impact has an equation: capabilities x environment, minus interference
You cannot read the label from inside the jar
Get the notes and tools:
tocculture.com
Join TOC Coach — community, courses, and live coaching:
tocculture.com
Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.

Zach Brandon spent years inside one of the most pressure-filled environments in professional sports. The biggest thing he took away was not about performance. It was about connection.
In this first conversation with Zach, JP sits down with the former Head of Mental Performance and Coach Development for the Arizona Diamondbacks, on staff during their 2023 World Series run, to explore what he learned about servant leadership, building genuine relationships across a roster, and the principle most leaders quietly overlook: go see the work. Zach and JP also get honest about the cost of diluted focus and why an overused strength can quietly become your biggest limitation.
This one is for any coach who has felt spread too thin, wondered whether athletes really trust them, or needed a reminder that the most powerful question you can ask is: what do you need from me today?
Chapters(00:00) Intro
(03:20) Fatherhood and New Direction
(05:37) World Series and Arrival Fallacy
(08:34) What Great Leadership Looks Like
(11:28) Values: Connect, Impact, Grow
(15:42) Permission to Slow Down
(18:56) Building Trust Across Generations
(20:55) The Pat Riley Connection Story
(22:53) Mapping Relationships
(24:38) Asking Veterans for Advice
(28:47) Player-Led Meetings
(30:42) Diluted Focus, Diluted Results
(35:45) Go See the Work
TOC 3-2-13 Quotes | 2 Questions | 1 Resource
Your fast-track to this episode's most actionable ideas.
"I got a lot better as a leader when I showed up every day from a space of like, hey, how can I serve you?"
— Zach Brandon
"Diluted focus produces diluted results."
— Zach Brandon
"Letting each person you come into contact with be the expert on themselves — and allowing them to share their expertise."
— Zach Brandon
2 Questions for Your TeamQ1: If you rated your relationship with every athlete on your roster from 1 to 5, where are the gaps — and what is one move you could make this week to close the most important one?
Q2: When is the last time you asked one of your athletes for advice? How might doing that more intentionally change the dynamic in your program?
1 Resource to Go DeeperWin More, Live Better — podcast by Zach Brandon
One of JP's handful of go-to podcast subscriptions. The episode featuring former Washington football coach Chris Peterson is the one that first caught JP's attention. Find it and all of Zach's work at zachbrandoncoaching.com.
Visit zachbrandoncoaching.com
Key TakeawaysServant leadership is a daily choice, not a personality trait
You cannot build deep connection without a system
Asking for advice builds more trust than giving it
Diluted focus produces diluted results
Go see the work
An overused strength becomes a limitation
Get the notes and tools:
tocculture.com
Join TOC Coach — community, courses, and live coaching:
tocculture.com
Better Coaches. Better Leaders. Better Culture.