The Messy City Podcast

You might wonder how a podcast on urban planning, design and development could get interested in the arcane subject of property taxes. Except that, it’s all over the news lately, and its another fundamental issue than actual normies care about. People in my city have left it because of outrageous tax re-assessments. Developers and investors won’t invest in my County because of the same. And, frankly, we are a fairly no-drama, modest cost part of the world compared to many places.
So I turned to Jaime Izurieta to start this conversation. Over at his Substack, The Vertical Sidewalk, Jaime recently authored a piece called “When the Levy Breaks,” which is a thorough introduction to how we got here with property taxation. I found the history incredibly interesting, and as a good a starting point as any for diving deep into this topic.
As Jaime likes to say, “We don’t know that our way of doing this is the best. And we don’t know it isn’t.” But if we don’t start by understanding how we got here, we’ll never understand how to move forward.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”


Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Returning champion Aaron Lubeck joins me to discuss his exceptional piece called, “Revisiting Euclid v. Ambler at 100,” which he posted on his Substack “On Housing.” Aaron also posts and helps curate “Southern Urbanism” - an excellent publication I highly recommend.
While a lot of ink has been spilled and words shared about the impact of the Euclid v Ambler case, Aaron’s column adds some new wrinkles and information to it that even surprised me. We talk in some detail about the case itself, the arguments made, and the people you might be surprised that were considered the “out” groups in that era. We also talk some about what a post-Euclid world could look like, and the implications for the planning profession.
Because Aaron and I can’t stop at just one topic, we also hit on some of the perverse consequences of building and energy codes, and how “The modern world destroys all that cannot be quantified” as he states. Oh also, Mel Brooks at 100, and the need for more satire in our lives. Enjoy.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”


Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Architect, Author, Photographer and New Urbanist Steve Mouzon joins me to tell his story about the emergence of New Urbanism in a location that many would consider unlikely. Huntsville, Alabama might be known for Space Camp, but it’s not widely known as a place to find great urban design and architecture. And that’s a shame, because there’s more lessons to learn here for most cities than by flying to a big, coastal market.
Steve talks about the emergence of the Village of Providence in the early 2000s, its unique characteristics, and how that project also influenced the rebirth of downtown Huntsville. He also shares some of his own travails and triumphs, asking “why not us?” For more on Steve’s work, please do check out his incredible resource at The Original Green.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”


Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We bring back my brother Dean on this episode, to talk about how we often let our fears overrun our lives, and how to get beyond them. Dean is not just one of my favorite humans on the planet, he’s also a clinical psychologist, author of a number of books on the Mississippi River, and a world traveler. His newest book, “Better Safe than Sorry: Slow Boats, Chicken Buses, and the Radical Choice to Trust the World” is coming out in late August.
For people who care about their communities and often wrestle with the fear of change, understanding what drives us and the psychology behind fear is essential. But even more so, we must understand how we can take steps to help people overcome those fears. Dean’s latest book is a study in how someone can gradually, incrementally overcome deep-seated worries or fears. He writes about how difficult it was for him to take risks as a young adult, and how over time that gave way. More importantly, he shares examples of how leaning into discomfort can frequently result in some of the greatest joys of life.
I often ask when it comes to change in cities, “what are we really afraid of?” And I’m not trying to be dismissive - some change really can be for the worse. American cities have seen a lot of that in the 20th century, especially with massive urban renewal efforts. But it’s also true that most of our fears are unfounded, or rooted in something deeper. We like change, but we don’t like change. Or, we want a certain kind of change. And yet, our messy lives change whether we want them to or not. Dean’s book and our conversation tries to help people to not let fear rule your life, so that you might truly enjoy it.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”


Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It’s very easy for all of us to get caught up in status quo bias. We live the way we do, it must be fine, right? The way things are surely is the way they’ve been for a very long time, and probably got this way for good reasons. Or so we think, if we think about it at all.
I think about this a lot when I think about how we finance, design and build infrastructure. Sitting here in 2026, we have so many assumptions about the way things have always been, and that what we’ve landed on is the best way. But is it, really?
For these, questions, I turned to brothers Vince and Geoff Graham. Vince and Geoff are true Renaissance men. They’re developers who have developed some of the most beautiful and inspirational communities of the last few decades. Those include Newpoint, in Beaufort, South Carolina and I’On in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. Both were wildly successful examples of New Urbanism, and showcased that we are still capable of building timeless, traditional places.
But beyond their development endeavors (which continue, in less talked-about projects), they are both deeply curious and knowledgable about a wide range of topics. They’ve got a depth of understanding of history that is unique, and ask all the right, and hard, questions about the way we do things. We dive into a fair amount of American history in this episode, but I hope you’ll see how it all ties together with our difficult conversations today about infrastructure, community, and much more.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”



Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe