Conversing with Mark Labberton

• Reading Revelation Responsibly, with Michael Gorman

  What is the book of Revelation really about? For ages, it has been the source of sensationalism, idolatry, confusion, and end-times predictions. But at its root, it is about the power and worship of the Lamb who was slain. Biblical scholar Michael J. Gorman joins Mark Labberton to explore how Christians can read the book of Revelation with wisdom, faith, and hope rather than fear or sensationalism. Drawing from his book Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation, Gorman offers a reorientation to Revelation's central vision: worshipping the Lamb, resisting idolatrous power, and embodying faithful discipleship in the world. Together they discuss Revelation's misuses in popular culture, its critique of empire and nationalism, and its invitation to follow the crucified and risen Christ into the new creation. Episode Highlights "The book of Revelation is about lamb power—not hyper-religious or political power. It's about absorbing rather than inflicting evil." "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the book of Revelation." "We shouldn't look for predictions but for parallels and analogies." "Worship, discipleship, and new creation—that's where Revelation hangs its hat." "At its root, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry." "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Helpful Links and Resources Reading Revelation Responsibly – https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Revelation-Responsibly-Following-Creation/dp/1606085603/ Reverse Thunder by Eugene Peterson – https://www.amazon.com/Reversed-Thunder-Revelation-Praying-Imagination/dp/0060665033 St. Mary's Seminary & University, Baltimore – https://www.stmarys.edu About Michael J. Gorman Michael J. Gorman is the Raymond E. Brown Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Baltimore, Maryland. A leading New Testament scholar, he is the author of numerous books on Pauline theology and Revelation, including Reading Revelation Responsibly, Cruciformity, and Participating in Christ. Gorman's teaching and writing emphasize Scripture as a call to cruciform discipleship, faithful worship, and the hope of new creation. Show Notes Introducing Reading Revelation Responsibly "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the Book of Revelation." "Apocalypse" means revelation, not destruction. Emerging from twenty-five years of study and teaching, aimed at rescuing Revelation from misinterpretation or neglect Growing up amid 1970s end-times obsession—Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and fearful youth-group predictions of the world's end Fear of the book of Revelation until he studied it with Bruce Metzger at Princeton Seminary Why he wrote the book: for people who have been scared or confused by Revelation's misuse Interpretation and misreading the book of Revelation Early questions: Does Revelation predict particular events or people? No predictions, but symbolic speaking into every age "Our task is not to find predictions but to discern parallels and analogies." Warning against mapping Revelation onto modern crises or personalities "When those predictions fail, the book gets sidelined or scoffed at." Keep one foot in the first-century context and one in the present Worship and discipleship The heart of Revelation is worship. "This is a book about worship—and about the object of our worship." Explaining the subtitle: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation "Uncivil worship" contrasts with "civil religion"—worship that refuses to idolize political power Influence from Eugene Peterson's Reverse Thunder and his own teaching at St. Mary's, where Peterson once taught Revelation Worship leads to discipleship: "Those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes." True discipleship mirrors the Lamb's humility and non-violence. The lamb and the meaning of power Interpreting Revelation's vision of the slain and standing Lamb as the key to understanding divine power "The crucified Messiah is the risen Lord—but he remains the crucified one." The Lamb appears twenty-eight times, a symbol of universality and completeness. "Revelation is about lamb power—absorbing rather than inflicting evil." Discipleship is cruciform: following the Lamb's way of self-giving love. The unholy trinity and the danger of idolatry Chapters 12–13 depict the dragon and two beasts—the "unholy trinity" of satanic, imperial, and religious power. "Power gone amok": political, military, and spiritual domination that mimic divinity How true worship resists empire and exposes idolatry Warning against reading these beasts as predictions of the UN or the pope; rather, they reveal recurring alliances of religion and politics "At its root, Christian nationalism is idolatry." When political identity eclipses discipleship, "political power always wins, and faith loses." Faith, politics, and worship today Christian nationalism as a modern form of "civil religion," conflating patriotism with divine will "It's only Christian in name—it lacks Christian substance." Idolatry is not limited to one side: "It permeates the left, the right, and probably the centre." Labberton agrees: false worship is endemic wherever self-interest and fear shape our loves. Both stress that Revelation calls the church to worship the Lamb, not the state. "Revelation critiques all human systems of false worship." Revelation's goal: Not destruction, but new creation "Destruction is penultimate—cleansing the way for renewal." Believers already live as citizens of that new creation. "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Communal, not merely individual, discipleship: "Revelation is written to churches, not just believers." Reinterpreting Revelation 3:20: Jesus knocking isn't an altar call to unbelievers but Christ seeking re-entry into his own church. "Jesus always wants to come back in." Living revelation today Spirituality of hope, not fear or withdrawal "Reading Revelation responsibly means engaging the world through worship and witness." How true worship is dangerous because it transforms our allegiance. "Following the Lamb into the new creation is the church's act of resistance." Conclusion: "Worthy is the Lamb." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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• Educational Injustice, with Terence Lester

  Adverse childhood experiences are notoriously hard to overcome, and they can affect a person well into adulthood. But the grace of close, stable, nurturing relationships can offer hope. Terence Lester—author of From Dropout to Doctorate and founder of Love Beyond Walls—joins Mark Labberton for a conversation about resilience, faith, and the redemptive power of seeing and being seen. Lester recounts his life's journey from poverty, homelessness, and gang membership in southwest Atlanta to earning his PhD in public policy and social change. Together, they explore the impact of childhood trauma on personal development; education as a form of love, justice, and community service; and the healing potential of local community and proximity. Lester's story is a testament to divine grace, human courage, and the transformative impact of compassionate words and faithful presence. Episode Highlights "The higher your ACE score, the more your body has to overcome… Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain. Your counterparts with lower scores may never develop those same muscles of resilience." "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." "I am a product of people who invested in me and of the things I've had to resist." "You can't love your neighbour if you're not concerned about the neighbourhood that produces your neighbour." "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Helpful Links and Resources Terence Lester's website – https://terencelester.com/ From Dropout to Doctorate – https://www.ivpress.com/from-dropout-to-doctorate I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People – https://www.ivpress.com/i-see-you Love Beyond Walls (Terence Lester's non-profit) – https://www.lovebeyondwalls.org ACEs Study (Adverse Childhood Experiences) – https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.html The Color of Compromise by Jamar Tisby – https://jemartisby.com/the-color-of-compromise/ About Terence Lester Terence Lester is a speaker, activist, author, and founder of Love Beyond Walls, a non-profit organization dedicated to raising awareness about poverty and homelessness while mobilizing communities to serve those in need. A graduate of Union Institute & University with a PhD in public policy and social change, he is the author of I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, **and All God's Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity. His latest book is From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice. Through storytelling, advocacy, and faith-rooted organizing, Lester seeks to dismantle systemic barriers and call communities toward justice, empathy, and proximity. Show Notes Education and social change Terence Lester describes sitting beside his father's hospital bed reflecting on vulnerability, legacy, and resilience. His father's words—"I'm proud of you"—affirmed the journey from poverty to doctorate. Growing up amid trauma, gangs, and homelessness in southwest Atlanta. The generational impact of systemic injustice and public policy shaping social outcomes Education as a tool for empowerment and community transformation, not self-advancement "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." How the post–Civil Rights era shaped identity and pride in blackness while still marked by inequality Frames poverty itself as a form of trauma, calling for empathy and systemic response Trauma, resilience, and the ACEs framework Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) test as a tool for understanding trauma Lester shares his 10/10 ACE score—complete exposure to childhood trauma "Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain… You must climb out of a pit to reach emotionally stable ground." How adversity produced resilience, not fragility Connecting personal trauma to compassion in ministry among the unhoused How proximity to suffering forms the capacity for empathy and love Faith, identity, and calling Connecting resilience and faith: "I believe my being was intricately woven together by God." Psalm 139 and seeing himself as "fearfully and wonderfully made" Jesus's life as a model of proximity and compassionate visibility—"Jesus saw." The church as a community of affirmation and blessing How words spoken over others—curses or encouragement—shape identity "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." Community, visibility, and flourishing "You can't love your neighbor if you're not concerned about the neighborhood that produces your neighbor." Warns of a "compassion deficit" and urges the rebuilding of community communication Seeds and environments: people cannot flourish where conditions are hostile The need for better care for impoverished environments that stunt potential Community as the soil of hope—"People find hope and possibility in community." Lester's mother's resilience and faith—earning her own doctorate while raising two children "I am a product of her never giving up." The generational power of education and faith as liberation Hope, words, and the power of blessing Transformative and timely sentences: encouraging words of seeds or yeast—small yet life-altering How to speak life, not curses, over others "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Mentorship, community affirmation, and divine proximity as instruments of healing Interrogating falsehoods: "God is not the source of cursing." A call to faith-rooted compassion, proximity, and collective responsibility. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• Violence Against the Poor, with Gary Haugen

  How can we  address the problem of violence against the poor? International Justice Mission exists to answer this question by protecting and rescuing victims, bringing criminals to justice, restoring survivors to safety and strength, and helping local law enforcement build a safe future that lasts. In this episode, International Justice Mission's founder and CEO, Gary Haugen, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on almost three decades of IJM's fight against violence and slavery worldwide—and the spiritual formation that sustains it. Haugen shares the origins of IJM in response to systemic violence against the poor, the evolution from individual rescues to transforming justice systems, and the remarkable rise of survivor leaders transforming their own nations. Together they reflect on courage, joy, and faith amid immense risk—bearing witness to God's power to bring justice and healing through ordinary people. Episode Highlights "Protecting the poor from violence is God's weight, but it's our work, and we're gonna seek to do it Jesus's way." "In this era, I just think what the world is aching to see is the followers of Jesus who have a incandescent freedom from fear and a life-giving joy." "Most of this violence will go away if government does just even a decent job of enforcing the law." "Our first commitment is to help each other become more like Jesus—and from that strength, to do justice." "The greatest miracle of IJM is not only the results—it's the freedom from fear and the joy with which they've done it." "God saw them in their darkness, and they now testify to the goodness of an almighty God who loved them." Helpful Links and Resources International Justice Mission – https://www.ijm.org Gary Haugen, The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence – https://www.amazon.com/Locust-Effect-Poverty-Requires-Violence/dp/0199937877 Gary Haugen, Just Courage: God's Great Expedition for the Restless Christian – https://www.amazon.com/Just-Courage-Expedition-Restless-Christian-ebook/dp/B001PSEQR4 Riverside Church Sermon by Martin Luther King Jr., "Beyond Vietnam" — https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam William Lloyd Garrison biography – https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Lloyd-Garrison Rwanda Genocide Investigation (UN Historical Overview) – https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda About Gary Haugen Gary Haugen is the founder and CEO of International Justice Mission (IJM), the world's largest international anti-slavery organization. Before founding IJM in 1997, he served as the director of the United Nations' investigation into the Rwandan genocide and previously worked at the US Department of Justice, focusing on police misconduct. A graduate of Harvard University and the University of Chicago Law School, Haugen has dedicated his life to ending violence against the poor and mobilizing the global church for justice. Show Notes The founding of IJM in 1997 as a Christian response to violence against the poor Gary Haugen's formative experience directing the UN's genocide investigation in Rwanda Realization that hunger and disease were being addressed—but violence was not Early cases in the Philippines, South Asia, and Peru exposing police-run brothels and child slavery IJM 1.0: rescuing individuals from slavery and abuse, case by case IJM 2.0: strengthening local justice systems to prevent violence before it happens Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Jericho Road" as a model for systemic transformation Formation of small multidisciplinary teams—lawyers, investigators, social workers IJM's evolution from rescue operations to building sustainable justice infrastructure Twenty-year celebration: Liberate conference and the global IJM staff retreat IJM's culture of spiritual formation: daily solitude, prayer, and community rhythms A Christian order of justice rooted in prayer, silence, and shared joy Spiritual formation as the foundation for sustainable justice work Experiments in Cambodia, the Philippines, and South Asia reducing violence by up to 85 percent Replication of IJM's model across 46 regions to protect 500 million vulnerable people Goal by 2030: one million freed from slavery, 300 million living under protection Empowering survivor leaders: from victims to advocates and elected officials Stories of transformation like Pama in South Asia leading the Release Bonded Laborers Association The Kenyan case of Willie Kimani—murdered IJM lawyer whose legacy reformed police accountability IJM's resilience: pursuing justice for six years until conviction of perpetrators Theological grounding: justice as God's work, pursued in Jesus's way Haugen on resilience: "It's a marathon, not a sprint" Joy and freedom from fear as hallmarks of IJM's culture How IJM balances global crisis fatigue with focused mission clarity Future challenges: technology-driven oppression—live-stream child abuse and forced scamming Global body of Christ as the essential network for courage and joy Sustainability and local leadership as the future of global justice movements Spiritual communities as the seedbed for future justice leaders Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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• God and American History, with Grant Wacker

  What is the theological meaning of American history? In this episode, American church historian Grant Wacker joins Mark Labberton to explore the theological dimensions of American history, the legacy of Billy Graham, and the evolving face of evangelicalism. Wacker reflects on his Pentecostal upbringing, his formation as a historian, and his conviction that faith and scholarship must speak honestly to one another. Together they trace how religion has both shaped and distorted American life—from the enduring wound of slavery to the reformist spirit woven through its history. Wacker, now in his eighties, offers his perspective on evangelicalism's past, present, and global future. Episode Highlights "Religion has always been at the forefront of rationalizing and making enslavement seem perfectly normal—perfectly natural. It's just the order of things." "Many of the very finest religious historians are not believers—and they do superb work in understanding where religion lies." "I don't think there is Christian nationalism out there. What there is is that there is nationalism that draws on Christian categories to legitimate itself." "I don't think what we're looking at is a religious movement. We're looking at a political movement that uses religious categories." "We should write about others the way we wish they would write about us." "You Americans are always asking the Holy Spirit to bring revival. What you ought to be doing is asking the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the revival that is already flourishing." Helpful Links and Resources America's Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Pastor-Graham-Shaping-Nation/dp/0674052188 Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Below-Pentecostals-American-Culture/dp/0674011287 One Soul at a Time: The Story of Billy Graham by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/One-Soul-Time-Religious-Biography/dp/0802885500/ Mark Noll's The Civil War as a Theological Crisis — https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Crisis-Steven-Janice-Lectures/dp/1469621819 Religion in American Life: A Short History — ****https://www.amazon.com/Religion-American-Life-Short-History/dp/0199832692/ About Grant Wacker Grant Wacker is the Gilbert T. Rowe Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Christian History at Duke Divinity School. A leading scholar of American religious history, he is the author of numerous books including Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture and America's Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation. His research has helped shape modern understanding of American evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, and the intersection of faith and culture. Show Notes Wacker's path to the study of history through mentorship at Harvard Divinity School and a fascination with theology's relationship to historical reality He distinguishes between observing "religion operating in history" and perceiving "the divine hand," emphasizing the tension between secular and theological approaches to the past. Four major contexts that define the American story: geography, capitalism, immigration, and race Eleven domains where the power of religion—and possibly divine influence—can be seen, from colonization and enslavement to revivalism and reform. "We are a people of plenty—prosperous partly because of the accident of geography." Reformed and Wesleyan theology as twin engines shaping the nation's moral and social imagination. Humility as "at the heart of Reformed theology: we don't run our lives; something else is running the show." Wesleyan theology, by contrast, stresses human enablement and responsibility: "If we are able to do it, we are responsible for doing it." Catholic contributions to the American story, especially the richness of liturgy and the continuity of two thousand years of history Reflections on racial sin as a "permanent wound," calling religion both complicit in and necessary for confronting slavery's legacy Mark Noll's The Civil War as a Theological Crisis, highlighting how both sides invoked Scripture without self-awareness or self-critique "Religion has always been implicated in making enslavement seem natural—as natural as breathing." Describes evangelicalism's deep roots in pietism and revivalism, its mainstream dominance by the late nineteenth century, and its later fragmentation. "Evangelicalism became the main line—it was the standard way Protestantism operated." Outlines the modern trifurcation: fundamentalists, liberals, and a centrist evangelical river that remains influential. "Christian nationalism" is largely a political, not religious, phenomenon: nationalism using Christian categories to legitimize itself. "Religion is rarely an independent variable in determining how people vote." Richard Bushman (paraphrase):  Have we written about [the subjects of academic history] as fairly and honestly as we can, or have we distorted their story in order to make ourselves look good? A call for fairness in historical judgment: "Write about them the way you wish they would write about you." Prediction: Evangelicalism's future lies "south of the equator"—in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. Quotes a Jesuit: "Americans keep asking for revival; they should ask to see the revival that's already happening." On Christian nationalism: "The question is not whether religion and politics collude—they always have—but whether we can be self-conscious and humble about it." Identifies power, prosperity, and digital speed as the toxic combination shaping contemporary polarization. "Speed is a narcotic for humans—we want to be connected now." Reflects on Billy Graham's unifying role and his progressive evolution on race and nuclear disarmament: "He became increasingly moderate, increasingly inclusive." Notes Graham's three conversions—to Christ, to racial justice, and to peace. "The United States and the Soviet Union are like two little boys in a bathtub filled with gasoline, playing with matches." On teaching and legacy: "My students are earnest—they want to do well for the world they live in." "Whatever good has come—it's a gift, not earned." Humility, humor, and grace as rare marks of faith and scholarship integrated Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• ICE Raids and Christian Witness, with Robert Chao Romero

  "Migration is grace," says UCLA professor Robert Chao Romero, author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity. In this episode, he joins Mark Labberton to discuss the immigration crisis through stories from Southern California, theology of migration, and the challenge of Christian nationalism for the American response to the immigration crisis we face. Romero narrates heartbreaking accounts of ICE raids, racial profiling, and dehumanization, while also offering hope rooted in scripture and the early church. He points out the "Xenodochias" of the ancient and medieval church that cared for migrants. And he shows how biblical narratives—from Abraham to Jesus—reveal God's mercy in migration. Romero calls Christians to see the image of God in migrants, resist the "Latino threat narrative," and reclaim the church's historic role in welcoming the stranger. Episode Highlights "Migration is grace. … You wouldn't have a Bible without migration." "Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders." "The gospel is an outward pushing invitation… it is the pushing out actually into the far and remote places of suffering in need." "This level of targeting of the Latino community has not happened since 1954 and Operation Wetback." "We think that crossing the US border is like crossing the Jordan into the promised land, and we're baptized into the Yankee Doodle song." Helpful Links and Resources Brown Church by Robert Chao Romero UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies Fuller Seminary's Centro Latino CLUE: Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice World Relief About Robert Chao Romero Robert Chao Romero is an associate professor in the UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies and in the Asian American Studies Department. With a background in law and history, his research and teaching explore the intersections of race, immigration, faith, and justice. He is the author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity (IVP Academic), which chronicles the long history of Latino Christian social justice movements. Romero is also an ordained pastor, active in local church ministry and theological reflection on immigration, Christian nationalism, and the global church. Show Notes Immigration Crisis and ICE Raids Student testimonies of fear and trauma at UCLA during immigration crackdowns Stories of ICE targeting bus stops, car washes, and Home Depots in Southern California Latino citizens, veterans, and even high school students detained despite legal status A man fleeing ICE was killed in traffic, sparking vigils and protests Historical Parallels and Christian Nationalism Comparison to Operation Wetback of 1954, when over one million were deported Escalating racial profiling, reinforced by Supreme Court decisions "Latino Threat Narrative" portrays Latinos as criminals and unwilling to assimilate Christian nationalism merges citizenship and faith, echoing "manifest destiny" Theology of Migration and Outsiders Migration as grace: God intervenes with compassion in nearly every biblical migration story "We live alongside the world. We don't belong to the world." " Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders." (Jorge Lara-Braud) Jesus as an asylum seeker in Egypt; Ruth and Joseph as biblical migrants Early church created "xenodochias"—ancient and medieval social service centers for immigrants and the poor Outsider theology: Christians as strangers and aliens, called to care for outsiders "Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders." Policy Challenges and Misconceptions Millions of mixed-status households trapped by the "10-year bar" in immigration law Asylum seekers legally present cases at the border under U.S. law Refugees undergo extensive vetting, often over decades Common myths about immigrants as "illegal" are contradicted by law and history Faith, Empathy, and the Church Empathy as central to Christian response, counter to narratives of fear and scarcity Latino pastors passing on both the gospel and nationalism from missionary influence The church historically provided refugee care before the UN Refugee Agency existed Worship with immigrant congregations as a source of hope and resilience Orthodox theology: worship joins heaven and earth, every tribe and nation before the Lamb Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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