Conversing with Mark Labberton

• The President and the Constitution, with Yuval Levin

  “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump’s second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump’s first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers. Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He’s founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. Together they discuss: The authority of the Constitution over the presidency The importance of character in the office of the president The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices Why we should worry, but not panic About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish. Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President’s Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels. In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024). He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago. Show Notes A time of “presidential gigantism” “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” Pluralism and vigorous debate Swamping a weak, divided Congress Separation of Powers Legislature vs Executive Branch “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.” “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” Performative nature of political roles “Random grab-bag of power plays.” Fear of a “lawless president” “The beginning of  a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.” “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.” Elon Musk as Pseudo-President “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.” “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.” Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check? Overturning Chevron deference “Character is destiny.” “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.” ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.” “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.” Presidential overreach Loyalty tests and punishment “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.” Having room for opposition “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.” Alarm Bells First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.” Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.” Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.” Character and mindset Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person. Dangers on the horizon Checks and balances Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term? “On the whole  our institutions have proven fairly strong.” “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …” Yuval Levin’s American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again What is the voice of citizenship right now? Appropriations “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.” “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.” “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.” “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.” A variety of voices “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.” “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?” “God Bless America.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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  40:54
• I Am Not You, with Mark Labberton

  “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that “I am not you.” He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange. Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of “differentiated others,” listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we’re likely to gain. Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker’s interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation The adventure of knowing another person Mature listening Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange “A chance to be more than our mere selves.” We’re each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc. Understanding the volley or back-and-forth “Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we’re preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That’s something else. That’s about plotting and planning, or it’s about fear, or it’s about anxiety …” Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions. “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people Listening is an unmasking of presumption. Exposing our presumptions Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley “These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• Losing Your Home in a Fire, with Megan Katerjian

  “I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” (Megan Katerjian, from the episode) What is it like to lose your house in a fire? The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed. Today’s guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family’s northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like. Together they discuss: Megan’s story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it Megan’s work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: “One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children.” The meaning of a social safety network The effect of trauma on decision-making What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing The social and economic impact of homelessness The difference between financial and relational poverty And how you can help those affected by the Eaton Fire If you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary’s Wind and Fire Resources page. Additional links: Summary of Eaton Fire City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates About Megan Katerjian Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California. Megan holds two master’s degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor’s degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management. Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025. Show Notes Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires Temporary housing to transitional housing “I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” Integrating Jesus and justice How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless The power-control cycle single mothers face A mother’s story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment Altadena’s fires Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena “It’s about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space.” Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort “I don’t think I’ve ever sobbed that hard in my life.” Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California Self-care “I can’t watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering.” Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces Being with people who went through the same experience Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California “I talked to God in very distracted conversations.” “The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me.” Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness The irony of learning about homeless The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing “What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma.” The “Social Service Shuffle”: good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc. FEMA and “a sea of cots” “If I had nothing in my bank account and didn’t have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now.” “Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it’s about relational poverty.” The benefits of a thick social safety network Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher? Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena “The economics look a little different.” Three families in the same home—”what does their social safety network look like?” Door of Hope pivoting to create  the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program Working with FEMA and home insurance Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love Self-care as restorative rather than selfish A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern California Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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  46:56
• Faithful Citizenship in Trump’s Second Term, with Peter Wehner, Anne Snyder, and David Goatley

  A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump’s second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you’re filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic? Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary). Together they discuss: The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office; The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment; Repentance, repair, and understanding; How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life; Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern; What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art); Learning disagreement in a post-civility era; Peacemaking instead of polarization; Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal; And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About Anne Snyder Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022). About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens “Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing.” Pete Wehner: a first-generation American From ideals to reality about the history of America “ I’m the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be.” “Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment.” The scene for Inauguration Day 2021 Strength and vitality of American life What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years? “Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I’m happy to say, welcome to my world.” The posture of believers and people of good will to “keep a moral ethical grounding” “Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless” Pulled in different directions Eugene Peterson formulation: “There’s the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way.” Called to be different things at different moments Name reality as best we can “Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?” Will there be a World War III in the next decade? Creative ways to develop resilience “A great chastening” “I feel both curious and really concerned.” When patience runs out “ I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things.” The shifting global stage The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn’t stop listening or caring What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment? Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective. Turning off the news National Gallery of Art’s Impressionist exhibit (link) “For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency.” Jon Batiste “Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem” Are we living in the post-civility era? Peacemaking instead of polarization Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal “Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world” “ I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there’s reconstruction.” “There’s a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late ‘60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world.” Prayers for Donald Trump That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders That “Not our will but Thy will be done.” For moral sensitivity ”I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life.” “We’re part of a story, and there’s an author. … But those chapters aren’t the whole story.” A notorious chapter in American history   Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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  47:14
• Evangelicalism and Politics Today, with Walter Kim

  “The Good News is still good news.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. …  The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.” (Walter Kim, from this episode) How does evangelicalism relate to the dominant political powers of our world? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes Walter Kim to Conversing. As the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and host of the Difficult Conversations podcast, Walter holds on to deep Christian orthodoxy alongside the most vigorous and necessary intellectual, personal, ethical, and theological reflections, offering a vision of leadership and spiritual-moral imagination to bolster the future of evangelicalism. Together they discuss: Christianity, pluralism, and polarization The fraught meaning of “evangelicalism” in America and what it means to be a “good news person” in this political moment The human impulse to wield power and the temptation of evangelicals to join with empire The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding and the necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism How evangelicals are retelling and recasting the story of the gospel in today’s political climate About Walter Kim Walter Kim serves as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a role he’s held since January of 2020. Previously, he was the pastor of Boston's historic Park Street Church, and has served other churches in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Charlottesville, Virginia, and as a campus chaplain at Yale University. He received a BA from Northwestern University, an MDiv from Regent College, and a PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern languages and civilizations. He hosts the Difficult Conversations podcast. Show Notes Long-term faithfulness to the gospel in the maelstrom of challenges and difficulties ”My experience has been one of extremes. … There is the lived reality of polarization, at which I find often myself right in the centre.” ”Sober self-assessment … one should always, as a Christian, be self-suspicious: Am I compromising? … Am I responding in faith or out of fear?” “Purveyor of the good news in action.” “Our labour in Christ is not in vain … ultimately Christ remains Lord and Savior of all.” The word “evangelical” and the state of US evangelicalism What does it mean to be a “good news person”? World Evangelical Alliance General Assembly Laussane and a gathering of five thousand evangelicals from around the world “It’s not a branding issue. It’s a substance issue.” “Global church with a polycentric distribution of leadership and resources” “Whatever our maelstrom and vortex may be in America, it pales in comparison to what brothers and sisters are experiencing throughout the world.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. …  The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.” Religious community vs “the other” How does the church relate to dominant powers? Image of God is not just an abstract idea “The democratization of the image of God to all people—not just to the rulers—was a profoundly prophetic statement.” Tower of Babel: A story not just about hubris, but about hoarding power and the ways political imperialism can use religion for its own purposes. “This is not a uniquely American problem. … This is a problem of humanity.” Evangelicals who have given themselves to empire Marring God’s image and remaking God in our own image Pluralism and Christianity The capacity for self-reflection The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding, and the rise of Christian nationalism “What’s different now is the pluralism.” The necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism Ingredient 1: The belief that America was founded as a Christian nation Ingredient 2: A sense or feeling of loss Ingredient 3: The answer to regaining what you lost is political Descriptive versus prescriptive: Was America founded as a Christian nation? Hope in the loving and just reign of God No national church: “living under their own vine and fig tree.” The reason we don’t privilege Christianity in the Constitution Lilly Endowment project “The Good News is still good news.” “Retelling and recasting the story … as a message of hope.” “ This initiative is an opportunity for us to tell the beautiful story of Jesus, while not neglecting the ways that story has been marred.” Luke 4: Jesus’s first public speech. “ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the oppressed. And to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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  56:35

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