Conversing with Mark Labberton

• Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus, with Reggie Williams

  For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s thought—ultimately offering a compelling call to face the challenge of colonialism embedded in Christian theological frameworks, and unmask and dismantle the assumptions of white Western dominance within theology. Episode Highlights “Even the most sincere and most brilliant, and even pious Christian, if we’re not paying attention to the way in which we are formed, repeats the problems that he’s trying to address in society.” “Our interpretation of Jesus shapes our morality as Christians.” “Hitler and Dietrich both understood their crisis as christological—just with radically different ends.” “Christ is actually present in the world in space and time—but for Bonhoeffer, that was the West. That’s a problem.” “The arbiter of culture owes it to the rest of the world not to be cruel. But what if the whole project needs to be undone?” “Access for black people has always meant white loss in the white imagination. That’s the virus in the body politic.” Helpful Links and Resources Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus by Reggie Williams Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Just Peacemaking by Glen Stassen About Reggie L. Williams Reggie L. Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University. A scholar of Christian social ethics, he focuses on race, religion, and justice, with a particular interest in Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s theological development during his time in Harlem. Williams is the author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus and a leading voice on the intersections of colonialism, theology, and ethics. Show Notes Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus reframes theological ethics through the lens of Harlem’s Black Church experience Reggie Williams explores how racialized interpretations of Jesus shape Christian morality Glen Stassen’s just peacemaking framework helped form Williams’s commitment to justice-oriented ethics Bonhoeffer’s exposure to black theology in Harlem was transformative—but its disruption didn’t last “The church must say something about those targeted by harmful political structures.” Bonhoeffer saw racism as a theological issue after Harlem, but still defaulted to Western Christology “Christ is located in the real world—but for Bonhoeffer, that meant colonial Europe and America” Williams critiques Bonhoeffer’s failure to see Christ outside the imperial West “Behold the man”—Bonhoeffer’s formulation still echoes a European epistemology of the human The human as we know it is a European philosophical construct rooted in colonial domination Bonhoeffer’s Ethics critiques Nazism but still centres the West as the space of Christ’s incarnation “The unified West was his answer to fascism—but it still excluded the harmed and colonized.” Even as a resister, Bonhoeffer operated within metaphysical frames of white supremacy “A reformed imperial Christianity is still imperial—we need a theological break, not a revision.” Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship reflected troubling views on slavery—he changed over time “From 1937 to 1939 he moves from withdrawal to coup attempt—his ethics evolved.” Reggie Williams argues the theological academy still operates under Bonhoeffer’s colonial presumptions “White Christian nationalism is a sacred project—whiteness floats above history as God’s proxy” Racial hierarchy was created to justify economic domination, not the other way around “Black access is always imagined as white loss in the American imagination” The DEI backlash reflects a long pattern of retrenchment following black progress “How we treat bodies is how we treat the planet—domination replaces communion” Bonhoeffer’s flaws do not erase his significance—they remind us of the need for grace and growth “He’s frozen in time at thirty-nine—we don’t know what he would’ve come to see had he lived.” Mark Labberton calls the current moment a five-alarm fire requiring voices like Williams’s “We are at the precipice of the future all over again—the old crisis is still with us.” The church’s complicity in empire must be confronted to recover the radical gospel of Jesus The moral imagination of the church must be unshackled from whiteness, ownership, and dominance Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• Global Displacement and Refugee Crisis, with Myal Greene

  “More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode) Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church’s responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world’s most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways. Episode Highlights “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.” “What we’ve seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?” “If we’re failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.” Helpful Links and Resources World Relief Open Doors World Watch List 2025 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration PEPFAR Program – US Department of State National Association of Evangelicals Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers About Myal Greene Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief’s innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children. Show Notes Myal Greene’s call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty Greene’s path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God’s heart for the poor “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.” Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers Psalm 31:7–8: “I’ll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you’ve seen the affliction of my soul, but you’ve not turned me over to the enemy. You’ve set me in a safe place.” “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.” 2007 in Rwanda Rwanda’s one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn’t be able to see it, but it was always there.” Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide). “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.” ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who’ve killed their family members or have forgiven people who’ve done terrible things to them.” ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?” The church’s role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.” “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” World Relief's Legacy & Mission Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement. “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.” “We boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church.” The global displacement crisis Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase) “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.” “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.” World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we’ve partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.” Trump’s immigration and refugee resettlement policies Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.” 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024. “We expected around 12,000” in 2025. “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?” Cuts to federal humanitarian funding USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC. On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it’s among the casualties.” “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?” Church response and misconceptions How should we manage uncertainty? When to use one’s voice to speak truth to power? “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.” “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.” Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.” “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?’” ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration” “Whether the church’s voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people’s real time decisions about how they live in the world” “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can’t be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.” “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.” “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.” How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian” “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?” Hope for a compassionate church “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.” “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• How to Make Difficult Decisions, with Angela Williams Gorrell

  What do you do when you don’t know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth. Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision. Episode Highlights “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?” “Sometimes good decisions don’t feel good.” “What if the best idea isn’t the good idea? And what if the data can’t tell us that?” “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.” Helpful Links and Resources Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell Life Worth Living course at Yale www.angelagorrell.com @angelagorrell on Instagram Show Notes The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice” The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs Individual discernment and soul work Life Worth Living at Yale “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?” The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.” “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.” Should we avoid difficult decisions? Discerning, then acting “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.” “Good decisions don’t always feel good—they might still break your heart” Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace Michaela O’Donnell and chronic pain Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it” “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn’t hinge on like this decision in your life.” Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision Community-based decision-making “There are all these false binaries.” “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?” Being as gracious as possible “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.” “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.” The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together “How do we do change with people?” Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.” Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment? “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.” Wisdom, complexity, and culture Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?” Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality. “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.” “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.” Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.” Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path” Discernment as a practice, not a moment Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model” “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There’s all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That’s really the stuff that people are grappling with.” Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders About Angela Williams Gorrell Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do. Angela’s research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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  49:10
• Mental Health and the Church, with Mark Eastburg

  Mental, emotional, and spiritual healing requires more than clinical technique—it demands sacrificial empathy, institutional trust, and a profound affirmation of the image of God in every human being. In this episode, clinical psychologist and Pine Rest CEO Mark Eastburg joins Mark Labberton to discuss the rising need for mental health care—especially for children, adolescents, and those recovering from severe trauma. Eastburg offers insights about the post-pandemic mental health landscape; psychological and emotional resilience; trauma-informed therapy; deep listening; and the theological, moral, and social commitments that drive Eastburg’s approach to mental and spiritual health. They also discuss the systemic injustice underlying many mental health disparities, inviting us to see mental health care as a vital form of justice work rooted in compassion, dignity, and Christian witness. Episode Highlights “We’re in the healing moments business. That’s what we do … and I think those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God—just like atoms are the building blocks of the material world.” “We’re in the healing moments business. … Those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God.” “Mental health work is justice work … especially when we’re helping people who’ve been victims of injustice get back into community.” “If you just react to people’s symptoms, you’ll get more symptoms. But if you can see the beautiful human being underneath, you’ll see more of that.” “A Christian approach to therapy starts with the belief that every person is made in the image of God—and they are someone’s favourite brother or sister.” “Jesus’s care for the outsider, for the downtrodden, the excluded—that has to define what we mean when we say we express the healing ministry of Christ.” About Mark Eastburg Mark Eastburg, PhD, is president and chief executive officer of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, one of the five largest free-standing behavioural health organizations in the United States. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary, Eastburg has served in both clinical and leadership roles at Pine Rest for over three decades. He is a passionate advocate for trauma-informed care, access to mental health services, and a faith-integrated approach to healing grounded in human dignity and Christian compassion. Helpful Links and Resources Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services American Rescue Plan Show Notes Mental Health Landscape post-Covid Surge in mental health needs for children and adolescents, especially after pandemic lockdowns Dramatic increase in psychiatric crises among youth: anxiety, self-harm, aggression Tele-therapy rose during Covid, but adolescents strongly prefer in-person care “The post-Covid world—everything seems to have become more intense.” The symptoms of the adolescent mental health crisis Rise in social media use and marijuana legalization amplifying symptoms Anxiety, substance abuse “We are really shaped and developed by practices.” The experience of children in foster care Trauma-informed care essential for children with abuse and neglect histories Empathy requires the therapist to engage in “sacrificial vulnerability” Human mutual vulnerability—”The therapist, to express such empathy, has to themselves be prepared to manifest their own vulnerability to the person who has their own underlying vulnerabilities.” Sage advice for therapists: “If you just react to people symptoms, you’re going to get more symptoms. But if you could look past the symptoms and see what he liked to call ‘the beautiful human being underneath everybody,’ anyone that you interact with, you'll see more of that.” Sacrificial empathy Working toward healing moments—the building blocks for the kingdom of God Christian psychotherapy: “the ability to look at people as made in God’s image.” Mental illness is another form of marginalization and exclusion “People are more than a set of symptoms to be treated.” Managing a crisis versus seeing a person How Pine Rest approaches mental health care Pine Rest’s new $100 million pediatric behavioural health center in Michigan “Instead of waiting months for care, kids can just walk in and we’ll sort it out.” New specialty clinics for autism, depression, eating disorders, and anxiety The universality of how mental health touches our lives Who sustains mental health care financially? What stokes a readiness for empathy? Deeper friendships and safe relationships of belonging as the foundation for mental health Stories of youth overcoming institutionalization and abuse through care “When a therapist sees the image of God, not just the behaviour, healing begins.” Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us be philosophers not in words, but in deeds.” “We often misperceive one another and then we misname one another and then we act in relationship to that person with the wrong name and the wrong perception.” Empathy, trauma, and Christian therapy “Our actions, our words can re-traumatize if we’re not approaching with care.” Connection between sacred empathy and human flourishing “You can’t manage people like machines—you have to wish for their flourishing.” The church, community, and mental health The role of church and community institutions in fostering resilience “You can’t train enough therapists to solve the crisis—we have to go upstream.” Stories of church communities embracing those with mental illness “Belonging precedes healing. If someone feels cared for, they’re more likely to show empathy.” Global suffering, Western understanding of “avoiding suffering,” and the search for meaning Contrast between global Christians and Western assumptions about suffering “While I think our work here at Pine Rest Mental Health—we're here to relieve suffering—there is suffering that is full of meaning and full of lessons to teach.” Christian healing values clashing with other predominant Western medical approaches “Suffering doesn’t equal God’s abandonment—it’s often where God meets us.” Concerns about over-medicalizing suffering and ignoring its spiritual richness Lessons from early Christian health-care pioneers—“the reckless ones” who ran toward the sick “There is suffering full of meaning and lessons that Western models tend to miss.” Justice, dignity, and the Christian vocation to empathic care “Mental health care is justice work—especially for those traumatized or left out.” “People suffering, struggling with mental illness are often the victims of injustices.” The practice of psychotherapy and mental health care as pursuing social justice Connections between structural injustice and mental illness Biblical vision of justice includes care for those seen as defective or excluded Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• Pentecostal Political Power: The New Apostolic Reformation, with Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell

  What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad? Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation. Episode Highlights “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.” Main Themes Pentecostalism’s history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God Linked Media References About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper Show Notes Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism’s roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic’ has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.’” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan’s in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn’t this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I’m given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what’s scary about the moment that we’re in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump’s Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don’t actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary’s controversial role in NAR’s intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What’s scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There’s a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality. About Leah Payne Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. About Caleb Maskell Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine. Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do. After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University. In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church. Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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