Deep Convection

• The Trump-Induced Crisis in U.S. Science

  Adam talks about the crisis in U.S. science and higher education that is unfolding now, due to the multi-pronged assault on both by the second Trump administration. This episode was recorded on June 19, 2025. It's a special one-off episode of Deep Convection, not part of The Sumner Files. Media articles mentioned in the episode include: New York Times article by James Glanz. Guardian op-ed by Colette Delawalla, Victor Ambros, Carl Bergstrom, Carol Greider, Michael Mann and Brian Nosek on the "Gold Standard" executive order. After this episode was recorded but before it was released, the New York Times published this article that makes many of the same points about the damage being done to U.S. science, through the lens of Harvard.

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• The Sumner Files, Episode Eight: Connie Burg

  Photo by Alon Koppel. Connie Burg, aka China Burg, Don Burg, and Lucy Hamilton, had never played the guitar before she joined Mars. But that didn't stop her from developing a uniquely original style that became a defining feature of Mars' sound, and that in turn influenced all the No Wave music that came afterwards. Connie went on to learn another brand new instrument, the bass clarinet, for Sumner's opera, John Gavanti, and then she kept playing it in her later projects, including Don King (with Mark Cunningham and others), The Drowning of Lucy Hamilton (with Lydia Lunch), Gerry Miles (with Melissa Weaver and Alan Licht), and The Love Dogs (with Andy Salcius). Though Connie and Sumner didn't play music together post-Gavanti, they stayed friends ever after, and her face is prominently featured in a number of his paintings. Connie recounts some great new stories to Adam, such as when Sumner got her and three other friends to form a bridge club, meeting weekly, so that he could paint them while they played the card game. Connie is a No Wave legend, an important person in Sumner's life, and a critically important contributor to The Sumner Files. This interview was recorded in December 2024.

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• The Sumner Files, Episode Seven: Susan Lehman

  In Adam's memory, Sumner's life is divided into the pre-Sue and Sue eras, with Sue being Susan Lehman, aka Sue Crane, aka Aunt Sue to Adam and his sister. Sue came originally from California, moved around in her youth, wound up in New York by the mid-1980s, and met Sumner sometime around 1990, right when he moved up to the Catskills for a few months to take care of his dying father. Not too long after that, they moved in together to her place in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. Sue worked as a middle school earth science teacher, Sumner painted apartments, and they lived happily ever after (in spite of being very broke at the beginning), until Sumner's death in 2003. During this whole time, they worked together on Sumner's research project about the painter Edward Simmons, and eventually published four co-authored articles about Simmons. Sue talks with Adam about meeting Sumner, his music, his art, his personality, and their life together. At the end, she tells a story about the talent show he made her whole family do on New Year's Eve Y2K. This interview was mostly recorded in August 2024, except for the last bit which was recorded in May 2025 (and the musical interludes, which were recorded earlier, by Sumner). Photo by Sue's sister Cathy McIntyre, taken at Sue & Sumner's wedding, in 1995.

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• The Sumner Files, Episode Six: Cynthia Sobel

  Cynthia Sobel, born Cynthia Schoenwetter, is Adam's mother, and Sumner's sister. So she knew Sumner from the very beginning of his life to the end, and there's no one else alive who remembers the things about him that she does. She talks at length about their parents, Charles and Sylvia Schoenwetter, and their childhoods in Elmhurst, Queens --- essential context for understanding Sumner's life and art --- as well as her memories and reflections about Sumner as an adult, and their relationship. One example: in 1963, Sumner took Cynthia and her husband (Adam's dad, Gerry Sobel) to see Bob Dylan, whom they hadn't heard of yet, perform in Carnegie Hall! Cynthia and Sumner both inherited artistic temperaments from their parents, and shared a passion particularly for the visual arts. (Their father, Charles, was a music teacher; Cynthia talks about how Charles didn't succeed at teaching music to either Sumner or her, though Sumner learned it anyway, playing the piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, to their father's dismay.) Cynthia had a long career as a designer of women's suits, with her own line (name on the label) at Herbert Grossman. When she retired, she took up painting, connecting her to Sumner even more. You can find some of her older paintings on cynthiasobel.com, and some more recent ones on instagram where she's @cynthia.sobel.5. This interview was recorded in September 2024.

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• The Sumner Files, Episode Five: Arto Lindsay

  As the front man in DNA, Arto Lindsay was one of the core No Wave figures from the start, and he and Sumner were good friends from the mid-1970s, when Arto arrived in NYC (along with Mark Cunningham and Connie Burg, from Eckerd College in Florida), into the 1980s and beyond. Arto played on Sumner's opera record John Gavanti, and in the early 1980s Arto, Sumner and Rudolph Grey formed a visual art trio, signing their separately-made works with the single name Jack Texas (with which Sumner continued to sign his own paintings for the rest of his life, long after the trio disbanded). Arto has had an amazing career since then, collaborating with a wide range of musicians and visual artists both. His projects have included the Golden Palominos, Lounge Lizards, Ambitious Lovers, and many solo records. He’s been a record producer for many other artists, especially (but not limited to) Brazilian ones. Arto himself grew up in Brazil and lives there currently, and his own music combines sounds from that country with no wave "skronk" --- a term coined to describe his guitar playing --- and many other diverse influences. Arto talks with Adam about Sumner, his art, their relationship, and how much he benefited from Sumner’s encouragement in those early days. This interview was recorded in July 2024.

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