ThinkEnergy

Trees are a major cause of power outages. They're also a wildfire risk—when branches hit a conductor, a small spark can become a big blaze. Lynn Petesch of Overstory joins thinkenergy to talk trees, exploring how AI, satellite imagery, and vegetation intelligence help utilities prevent outages and reduce wildfire threats. Including Hydro Ottawa, who saw a 44% drop in tree-related outages since partnering with Overstory. Listen in for how we work together to keep the grid safe in an era of extreme weather.
 
Related links 
Overstory: https://www.overstory.com/

Lynn Petesch on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnpetesch/ 

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   

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Transcript:
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected], Hi everyone. Welcome back. Today on thinkenergy, we're going to be talking about trees. Yes, you heard that correctly. Trees. I know this is a show about energy, but there's actually a very real connection between our electricity grid and those slow growing, majestic givers of shade, lumber, fruit and so many more benefits. Honestly, who doesn't love trees? But I'm not just kicking this episode off in my capacity as a tree hugger. Let's take a look at this through a utility lens, and I will use Hydro Ottawa as an example. Hydro Ottawa service territory includes some very rural and very forested areas. Even our urban territory has a fairly extensive tree canopy. As a result, Hydro Ottawa trims about 60,000 trees each year. Why? Because trees contracting power infrastructure is a big problem. Tree interference remains a leading cause of power outages for us. Strong winds force them onto our wires. Heavy snow or freezing rain builds up and weighs down branches, breaks limbs, and increases the risk that part of a tree may touch a line, and in some extreme cases, heavy storms can even send trees or branches crashing into our poles, damaging the poles. The struggle between power lines and trees, which, again, don't get me wrong, we all love trees, has been going on for years. There is a constant struggle between trimming enough and getting the right trees trimmed and maintaining as much tree coverage as we can. In 2022 we identified a disruptor in this dance, the solution came through a partnership with Overstory, a company that uses satellite imagery, infrared technology and artificial intelligence to help utilities manage vegetation and trim trees more efficiently. And the timing could not have been better. Just days after we started working with Overstory in the spring of 2022 the derecho hit Ottawa. Our Ottawa based listeners will remember this storm well. It was monumental in the history of our city, and indeed for us as utility, winds reached 190 kilometers an hour. For our non-metric listeners, that's nearly 120 miles per hour. The storm ripped through poles houses and cause considerable damage to our city's urban forests. Overstory played a crucial role during the cleanup and in helping us level up our vegetation management strategies moving forward, we realized that the insights we got from Overstory would help improve our proactive approach to tree encroachment and hazard identification, and this is essential in this era of extreme weather events. We know that climate change is causing more frequent and more extreme weather events. According to Climate Central, the number of weather related power outages in the United States increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021 and severe weather accounted for over 1000 outages across Nova Scotia just in the year of 2024 we want to keep you connected during these heavy storms, and that's why we're looking to organizations like Overstory. So what does Overstory do to help us keep the lights on? Well, without giving away too much, because we're going to get into the details shortly, Overstory through a detailed analysis of the scans they do of our entire grid, identifies high risk areas, which we can then prioritize and better focus our resources when it comes to vegetation management, this level of monitoring and focus reduces the risk of trees from coming into contact with our poles and disrupting Your connection to the grid, the results speak for themselves. Since partnering with Overstory, we've reduced vegetation related outages by 44% and that's only part of the story, as we'll discuss further, Overstory also plays a crucial role in helping utilities prevent wildfires in high risk areas across North America, similar to extreme weather, wildfire frequency and intensity is also increasing, in part due to climate change expanding cities and many other factors. And when wildfires do happen, these stories are heartbreaking. What many people don't realize is that lots of wildfires are sparked by trees making contact with power lines, and that is why Overstory plays a key role in tagging areas where those fires are most likely to ignite and spread, making it easier for utilities to prioritize trimming work and vegetation management in those areas. To dive more into how Overstory is helping us here at Hydro Ottawa and. And other utilities helping us identify and act to mitigate risk associated with vegetation. I'm really excited to have Lynn Petesch on the show today. Lynn is Overstory's, Head of Customer Success, and has spent the past 10 years building customer facing teams with a specific focus on technologies that tackle the climate crisis. She began her career working for the United Nations and the diplomatic service of her home country, Luxembourg, before moving into the tech sector to really work in environments where she could drive impact more quickly and at greater scale. Lynn Petesch, welcome to the show.
 
Lynn Petesch  05:34
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
 
Trevor Freeman  05:36
Okay, so let's start at the very top with a high level look at what Overstory does and how the organization came to be.
 
Lynn Petesch  05:45
Yeah, let me tell you about Overstory. I mean, we are a vegetation intelligence platform. We use remote sensing and AI to give electric utilities, including Hydro Ottawa and others, a clear, system wide view of their risk. They always do it because they want to address three things, or sometimes more, but kind of, there's always a few goal posts, and it's either improving reliability, reducing wildfire risk, if that is if they're in an area where there is a concern, and or improving operational efficiencies. So Overstory very much becomes a decision-making tool for their programs were used mostly by the vegetation management people, operations people, wildfire mitigation teams, and they each time they want to either use a program that exists, prioritize it, reshape their work. They might be preparing for storm. They might be working on a wildfire mitigation risk so the company, more broadly, was founded in 2018 by Anniek Schouten and Indra den Bakker. This was back in the Netherlands, and they were leveraging, or getting really interested in satellite imagery, and were very initially using it for deforestation purposes. So, the climate resilience DNA has always been with us. But like any startup, we were looking at that kind of target audience that was most interested in what we had to offer. And pretty quickly, we landed on the electric utilities. They had the most pressing need to use remote sensing at scale to solve very big problems, honestly. And so we pivoted into that space of electric utilities, and then in 2020 Fiona Spruill, who's our CEO right now, she joined us. She shaped the company into what it is today, and that is really around building safer and more reliable operations.
 
Trevor Freeman  07:33
That's great, and I want to dive into some of the details. Our listeners will know that we talk a lot about grid modernization here and talk a lot about better intelligence of what's happening on the grid in all aspects, and something we haven't really talked about, and I'm excited to talk to you about today is the sort of vegetation management side of it. So really excited to get into the details. But before we do that, I'm always really curious to understand, you know, the people behind the conversations. How did you get into this area of, you know, high tech vegetation management? I touched a little bit on your bio in the intro, but give us a sense of, you know, how did Lynn come to be in the space that you're in right now?
 
Lynn Petesch  08:12
Yeah, I wouldn't say I grew up thinking I was going to work in this space, but I love working in it now. So actually, right out of college, I went to work for the United Nations, but then in the last 15 years, I started working at high growth tech companies, startups, and I've always been focused on leading and building CS operations, which is basically the customer success teams. They're the ones that are in front of the customers, implementing these software programs, kind of working very closely with customer solving problems. And about four years ago, I decided that I did want to focus the rest of my career on solving the climate crisis more broadly. And I remember very clearly that I came across Overstory. And there was two things that really resonated with me. One was hearing that utility caused wildfires could be as thing of the past, like they are preventable. And the other thing was learning about this world where vegetation is the biggest cause of outages, which is, you know, I did not know before. And so I think, you know, having these very clear goals is very compelling to kind of work on something where it's so easy to understand what the big problems are. So I joined Overstory, and for the last couple of years, I've been building a team that gets really deeply embedded in these utilities, specifically with the vegetation management and the WiFi mitigation teams. And we work on their programs. We understand their programs, we help them reshape their programs. We roll out, obviously, the software element that is Overstory. It's been very fun and rewarding work
 
Trevor Freeman  09:40
That's great. And I really love, you know, talking to people from a variety of areas that they touch on climate change and the climate crisis. And I think there's a bunch of us who share that passion of wanting to do something. I spoke with a group of you know, recent grads about what is a green. In career. What is it? What does a career in climate change look like? And really it looks like whatever you want it to look like. There are so many aspects that touch on this. So kind of neat to hear how that was your passion, and then you figured out where it made sense for you to enter into the climate sphere. So that's great.
 
Lynn Petesch  10:15
Yeah, I guess when I was young, I thought you had to be a scientist to work on time, yeah. And I think now anyone can find an angle on how to contribute to it. And I think it needs everyone to help contribute.
 
Trevor Freeman  10:24
Yeah, any job can be a green job if you care about it and if you make it that okay. So let's get back to Overstory. Tell us a little bit about the evolution of the company. You talked about it kind of founding about seven years ago. Tell us how it's evolved and progressed over those seven years.
 
Lynn Petesch  10:41
Yeah, so when we started working with utilities, I think at that point, everyone was kind of assessing whether satellites could be kind of good use case for analyzing vegetation. We're now talking about 30 centimeter imagery. So the resolution of satellites has become incredible. You can really see branches. You can detect species of trees. You can see if they're healthy or not. So initially, that was kind of our m-o we really were the leading provider to find out, where are the trees, how close are they, in terms of proximity to your network, so to the conductor, which is the risk. You know, we're looking at the terrain. If you're looking in the mountains and in Colorado, you have very different terrain than maybe in Ottawa. So detecting tree species has been really interesting, detecting the health of trees, how that decline is furthering. A lot of utilities are experiencing a lot of tree decline die off right now. So that was how we started. And then we started working with the really big utilities. And you had to think about this problem at scale. Now, we might be scanning with satellites, hundreds, 10s of 1000s of miles at a time, and some of these utilities, they might have 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s, of trees that could pose a risk to their network. They might have had a really big, large weather event, a storm that knocked over some of their system. So at that point, it all becomes about that decisioning tool. Everything starts becoming a prioritization, and I think that's now where we're really leaning into is making not just surfacing the data, but making it very actionable. Utilities have a lot to deal with. They deal with very tight budgets, they deal with crew constraints. They might have an aging workforce, their regulatory pressure, they're really vulnerable to storms. Increasingly, there's a lot of wildfire exposure. So everything becomes a decision of, where should I focus my intention? Where can I get the biggest bang for my buck? What should I do? What should I not focus on? And that decisioning is where we really want to be a key player in.
 
Trevor Freeman  12:44
Absolutely. And looking forward, I know I'm kind of we're jumping the gun here. We haven't gotten into the details of what you do. But looking forward, what is your vision for, kind of the future of this space and how it's going to continue to evolve? Are you mature as a company yet, or as a sector, or is it still a lot of growth to happen?
 
Lynn Petesch  13:01
Yeah, I think vast majority utilities are now leveraging remote sensing. It could be lighter, it could be drones, it could be satellites. So that has become a pretty established tooling within the sector. I think what our vision really is, is providing utilities that shared resilience, first picture of risk. So you know, we imagine a world where you can, kind of like, see the emerging risks, and you can start becoming proactive. Being proactive in the space of vegetation management has been really challenging. You never know where the next tree is going to fall. And over the last couple of years, customers suddenly have access to this risk across their territory so that they can start being proactive about it. As a matter of fact, that was a key use case, also with the team at Hydro Ottawa, is to start launching these proactive programs. And I think when we think about it, we get very excited about the world in which anyone from the field crews to the vegetation managers to the operation folks to the execs, to the regulators, the community partners who think about the safety of their communities, the regulators all have that kind of shared view of risk. Just imagine, they all understand the same risk. They operate off the same sheet, and they make the same data driven decisions that could solve a lot of problems, because now the data is often scrambled across different people. Certain people have access to it and certain people don't.
 
Trevor Freeman  14:25
Great. Okay, so let's get into the specifics here. I want to actually talk about specifically what you what Overstory does. How do you find we've kind of talked about vegetation management, obviously, you're supportingHydro Ottawa and other utilities in our vegetation management programs. How do you find and tag high risk vegetation? What is high risk like? What do you actually do on a day to day basis?
 
Lynn Petesch  14:47
Yeah, that's the part that I deal with the most often. So excited to get into specifics. Implementing with Overstory is actually pretty easy. I mean, when we start working with a customer, we need to know where is your grid. So we need to understand where your power lines are. Planning. We need to understand the main configurations of them. How tall are the poles, etc, so we can really compute that whole focus of where the trees in relation to your power lines, to your conductors. That's all ultimately that we're focusing on. Increasingly, we're all seeing focusing on the ground. I'll be talking about that as well. We then task these satellites over your territory. We do that during the leaf on season, so that will be the summer, essentially. And then we run all these models. So we are first needing to understand, where are the trees, what is their height, what is their health? An unhealthy tree is much more likely to fall and cause damage to your power lines. We're looking at the fuels on the ground. We can help you determine what type of equipment you might need to attack certain types of vegetation. And we always compute it to that risk to the conductor. And we look at your right of ways. Now, I think the interesting part about your question is the what is high risk? And that is, can be very different across different utilities, and I think that's the maybe the unique part with Overstory is that we can configure it to your standards. So every utility has very unique components. If you're on the West Coast and you're concerned about wildfires, your tolerance to risk will be very different. And if you're on the East Coast, where you're mostly concerned about not causing too many outages, including that you might have specific trimming specifications. The crews running around with chainsaws, they know exactly how far out they need to trim, how much they can trim, and there's a bit of a risk tolerance thing. So we built very configurable risk frameworks for all of our utility partners, so high means one thing to hydro Ottawa means something different to a customer in California that is facing a very different type of risk.
 
Trevor Freeman  16:49
So you're out there assessing, essentially, just for the context of our listeners, you know, we've got power lines that run overhead. They run through residential neighborhoods, commercial areas, but also forested areas, treed areas where there's lots of vegetation near our equipment, your company really gets an understanding of the the interaction between the vegetation and our lines, and says, these ones are too close, or this is a tree that's, you know, not healthy, and could come in contact with your lines based on your analysis. So help us, like, let's paint that picture a little bit more detailed. How do utility companies take the information that you are coming up with, that your analysis is coming up with, and use that to run a vegetation management program more effectively? What does the utility do with that information?
 
Lynn Petesch  17:37
Yeah, so we always center it around four main use cases. One is optimizing a program that already exists. It's creating a targeted program for you. It's quantifying your work and risk reporting. And I'll dive into each and every one of them a little bit to illustrate a bit more what that could mean. So when we think about program optimization, a lot of utilities, they have existing vegetation management cycle. They might have a regulatory obligation to visit their territory every four years, for example. Now, a lot of times they've been doing their program the same way for the last 10 maybe 20 years, but the conditions in their territory are different, right? I mean, the things we're seeing, the storms are heavier. There's more tree decline that we're seeing right now. So they know they need to adapt and they need to adjust it. But it's big programs with lots of budgets attached to it, a lot of crews running around. So starting to think about how you can start pulling a socket that you're meant to trim forward, or starting to tackle an area where you say, is more residential, there's fewer trees, focusing on your high risk areas. First re managing these programs is one key component that we work with a lot of companies on. And thinking about Oklahoma, Gas and Electric, for example, that they have a budget, and they can only do that much with the budget, and it was really about reinventing where they can get the biggest impact. The other one, the second use case, is this targeted program creation, and I'll use the Hydro Ottawa use case for that. You know, they had suddenly a view about where are all of their hazard trees? Hazard trees are these trees that are declining, they're dying, or they're dead, and they could have an impact on your system. Now, suddenly you know where they are, so you can start building a targeted program about dedicating some time and budget and crews to actually going and addressing those trees that has a big impact on your reliability and on reducing tree cost outages. And there's many others, sort of like hotspotting, is a very common term about starting to become proactive and doing something for a specific program. And the third one is work quantification. And I think there, when you think about it again, there's large contractors that are running around, managing your territory. And now we utilities, for the first time, often have that data to actually assess how much work there is. So that's really helpful in terms of negotiating your contracts, getting better bids. Some utilities say it's really hard to find contractors that want to work on their system, because it's very hard to estimate how much work there is, or they might have a budget to mow certain vegetation along a transmission corridor. Just knowing how much vegetation there is is a really helpful tool to address it and prioritize it in the right way. And then the fourth use case is the risk reporting, and that is about getting that baseline view about your risk and tracking it year over year. And this is really where we want utilities to have that data to report it out to their boards, insurers, regulators, and often it's used to defend your budgets, secure your budgets, or really have some data to kind of back you up on what the problems are that you're facing.
 
Trevor Freeman  21:05
Great. So you talk about data, and you know, each of those use cases that you mentioned, or strategies that you mentioned really are about getting the right information in the hands of the right people to make decisions and sort of more efficiently and effectively make decisions, but it's a lot of data. And so Hydro Ottawa has over 6000 kilometers of lines. You know, this, of course, as our partner, we have a big territory, and we have a fairly treed territory. That's a lot of data points. You're collecting a lot of data from your satellites. You're doing analysis on that. How are you doing that analysis? Is it, you know, AI is kind of a buzzword, and every sector right now, and the utility sector is no different. Are you using some form of AI or machine learning analytics? What are you doing in terms of, you know, crunching the numbers and coming up with the right actions?
 
Lynn Petesch  21:59
Totally, yeah, AI is a buzzword, but it's also very exciting. I think utilities have really embraced it already. They're using it for demand forecasting. They're using it for customer service. They're using it for asset planning. I mean, at the core, Overstory has been using AI to turn remote sensing data into operationally useful intelligent about their vegetation. So when you say yes, Hydro Ottawa has that many 1000s of kilometers of overhead lines, we need to a rank it to them. This is your worst circuit. This is your worst area. This is the area where you have the most hazard trees, for example. So we can really rank order on a span level, from the worst to the best, right? So that could be one thing, it's still an overwhelming amount of data. So where we started by using AI to kind of predict that whereas the trees How tall are, they were and they were relation to the conductors. Now what we're really excited about, or kind of leaning into, with AI, is how to intelligently, kind of assess and prioritize risk. So not every hazard tree has the same impact. If a hazard tree falls on a line where more houses are dependent on you will knock out the power of more people. So it's always a prioritization exercise, and leveraging AI for that is what is most exciting to us right now. And I think it's important to note that we also don't just want it to be a black box. All of the models we've built, they're always validated by certified arborists and kind of our utility partners. And I think at this stage, this is very important, because every tree that we find exists in the real world, and so validating this, AI in the with ground truthing, has been really important for us to also build that trust in the technology.
 
Trevor Freeman  23:42
That's great. And I do think it's helpful for our listeners to kind of understand the context before this, this work is sort of done, you know, in the absence of a tool like yours, it's, it's sort of done. You know, there's a degree of manual effort here. There's a degree of patrolling the lines. There's a cycle of vegetation management. So if you've done a line this year in three years or four years or five years, you want to be looking at it again. This takes a little bit of that, I don't want to call it guesswork, but it takes a little bit of that manual effort out of the equation, and really focuses efforts in the right way. And it's only with the tools that you know you folks are using that you're able to do that volume of analysis and get that pinpoint accuracy. So that's fantastic. Let's, let's get into kind of the success of it at all, like the big picture. We've obviously talked a couple times here that you're our partner here at Hydro Ottawa, so I know that the success that we're having with you, but you know, tell us some of the great success stories with other utility partners. Are you, you know, are you actually reducing weather related outages? Are you seeing the impact of using the overstory tools and methodology to support utility partners?
 
Lynn Petesch  24:58
Yeah, I mean weather related outages can mean many things. You have trees knocking over, like the pole might crack, etc, you know, those there's a lot of things that can happen during a storm. And I've heard a lot of stories about side of some of the storms that Ottawa has experienced in the past years, where, you know, you could have had anything, and they're just heavier, and that the consequences are really strong, but what we can impact is the tree cost outages, right? And that we've proven with Hydro Ottawa, where, within a year, by focusing that targeted program on going to an area where you had a massive amounts of these trees that were dying off and they at any point, was just a little bit too heavy wind could be toppled over and fall on the line, we had a 44% reduction in tree cost outages. That's a real, tangible number. You can see, I'm thinking about utility as well. In the on the East Coast, a co op that runs through very rural areas. In those areas, you have a trees outside of the right of way that are toppling over on two lines. So tree cost outages are a huge issue for them, and it's really impacting their safety and safety those key, key KPIs that utilities are always tracking and by us just giving them a rank order of which has a tree they had so many of them, which has a tree to even go to first, because if that has a tree were to fall on a line, a ton more people are going to be out of power than if the other one were to fall the line, you will have, like one rural cabin that will not have power. And that led to a reduction of something around 90% of tree cause outages is to 70% it's still a long way to go, but it was a really tangible number that you can see, and it shows that if you then do that proactive work, you have real impact on your tree cost outages. And it's if I think about our customer in California, Pacific Gas and Electric, for example, it's a lot around helping them understand where they don't need to go. So it's kind of doing something of a visual inspection and actually skipping certain spans, that can be itself a really big use case. Because right now, if you don't have an understanding about where your risks are, you might be spending trucks to roll for hours around areas where there is not really any tangible work to be done. So redirecting them to the right areas is where we've seen a lot of success there, and that obviously leads to budget wins, right? You'll be saving a lot of money by doing that. And those are kind of the use cases that we chase and that we kind of help prove the cases on.
 
Trevor Freeman  27:29
Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's only so many resources you can you can throw at this, and making sure that we prioritize and focus those resources in the right spot is absolutely critical. You were just talking about the West Coast, and you mentioned this earlier. I know wildfires is is an area that is obviously of great interest for your organization. We're fortunate here at Hydro Ottawa, and that we haven't really had to deal with that much. But anybody who's you know following the news knows this is a major problem for us. So how, what is your role in helping those utilities prevent wildfires? Maybe give us, like, a very quick primer on why utilities are a factor when it comes to wildfires first, and then how your organization is supporting that.
 
Lynn Petesch  28:13
So unfortunately, utility cost wildfires tend to be the most catastrophic wildfires because they're critical infrastructure, and we've obviously seen that happen across the world, in in the US recently, again and again. But utility cost wildfires, as I said at the beginning, are also the actual wildfires that are preventable. So that's really where we're lying to lying into a lot of the forests right now. They've become Tinder boxes. That is obviously because of fire suppression policies? That's because of forest management techniques that have been leveraged in the last couple of 100 years that are slowly changing at different paces? Canada's had some, unfortunately, some really bad fire seasons recently as well. And so where overstory wanted to place itself as a net prevention space to even not add to the point where you have a spark, because there's a lot of tools out there that focus on mitigation and what is, what do you do when you see that first plume of smoke coming up? And so we've landed in kind of really focusing on the prevention side, so that utilities are hopefully in the future, not the ones that spark any of those catastrophic wildfires we've already always been looking at that the vegetation that could touch your conductor, right? That's I've been speaking about that a lot, but now we're really excited for the first time, and we recently announced that we launched a fuel detection model. So that's us looking at the ground fuel conditions, and those are actually usually the key contributors to the spark that spreads the fire. We're now providing that to utilities as a much higher resolution than ever before. For me, it's interesting because I've spent a lot of time looking at trees, and now I'm going into the field and I'm looking at the ground, and it's a new perspective. But yet again, we could just, you know, we don't want to overwhelm our customers. A lot of maps and showing the fuel conditions, necessarily, we can really help them identify those spans where a single failure would have the greatest consequence. So yet again, it's about how to make that data that, you know, there's a lot of wildfire risk map out there, but make it a very actionable list of spans that if they were to tackle those they are very proactively reducing the risk of igniting a fire. And as a result of the protecting their communities.
 
Trevor Freeman  30:29
Got you so it's not just about the overhead trees, branches, etc, contacting the line. It's, you know, if a switch goes, if an insulator pops, if, if something happens that will cause sparks. What's happening on the ground below that line, and how do we make sure it is able to withstand sparks? That might happen.
 
Lynn Petesch  30:49
Exactly if you have dry grasses, if you have sagebrush, if you have certain types of fuels, they're just much more likely to spark a fire and then spread, spread out without there even be any any trees you have these prairies along Texas that can blow up in a fire very quickly, and the fires can spread to tremendous sizes. And so understanding the fuels on the ground is really important.
 
Trevor Freeman  31:15
Super interesting and fascinating work to get involved in. As you mentioned, this is obviously an area of, I don't even know if I call it growing concern anymore, great concern for for the utility industry and all of us. Yeah. So with the technology that's, you know, we talked about AI a little bit ago, it's literally growing before our eyes. It's really evolving fast. Do you see your technology evolving along with it. What's what's kind of next for your organization? You talked about getting into sort of the ground vegetation management. What comes next? How do you see it evolving as AI and tools evolve?
 
Lynn Petesch  31:52
Yeah, I mean, if we see that the future is where we want to support a grid that is much safer and reliable, as I mentioned, we also want to make it sure it's resilient to the climate and the economic pressures that there are. So our initial focus and our continued focus, and where we have a lot of our expertise has been with vegetation. Now we're starting to look at the ground fuels, then that naturally evolves into looking at the asset vulnerabilities. So you know, the actual polls, and if there's any failures potentially on those as well as further weather exposures, right? It becomes, then about the soil moisture. It comes about the wind speed. It becomes around the rain, precipitation, etc. So there's a myriad of things that we can start looking at and that we want to start looking at in order to get that more holistic view of risk, and go beyond just vegetation right now, where we're investing most heavily in is that wildfire risk. There's also the resolution that we see with satellites right now is at 30 centimeter that may drop down to 15 or 10 centimeters, so the resolution will get higher. There's other sources that we're exploring already flying, sometimes aerial imagery that is at that five to 15 centimeters, then you would really start seeing soon, you can start seeing a leaf on a on a tree. It gets really impressive. There's lighter there's lots of other kind of remote sensing technologies that we're looking to leverage in the future. And then, as a company as well, we're starting to, obviously expand internationally. We started working with utilities in New Zealand that have very similar problems and various regulatory changes. They also have a problem with wildfire risks. So that is, that is another angle that at Overstorey We're chasing right now.
 
Trevor Freeman  33:35
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that. You know, understanding of other assets beyond just vegetation, has kind of been running through my head of we talk about, and I think we've talked about it here on the show. If we haven't, I should do an episode on that, like a digital twin, a digital twin of our grid, and really having a good understanding of not just, you know, a line drawn on a map of, Hey, your circuits run this way, but really physically, what's happening out there, and being able to sort of model that interact with it in a digital way, to understand, if we do X, Y and Z, what happens. So the technology that you guys are using to really get good imagery and understanding of what's out there, well, I think what I'm hearing from you is could potentially be leveraged in that next level to understand, what pulls do we have? What health are they in? What you know, what's happening with that conductor? Is it sagging too much? Is it in good health? Like there's, there's all this opportunity that's really fascinating to hear.
 
Lynn Petesch  34:31
Yeah, already. Now, when we look at transmission corridors, we look at the sag of these lines, and the terrains are also really challenging, something to look at. So there's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account. And that can only expand as we want to look at risk more beyond just the vegetation element.
 
Trevor Freeman  34:48
Very cool. Well, Lynn, very interesting to hear this. I'm really glad you came on the episode or the show today to talk to us. Fascinating to hear what Overstory have to I know that we're super excited to be. Working with you here at Hydro Ottawa and excited for what comes next. We always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those and here we go. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
 
Lynn Petesch  35:13
I was thinking about an author more than a book. My favorite author is Jonathan Franzen. If I would recommend one book, it'd probably be Corrections, his most famous one, I believe. But they're like, these chunky, 800-900 page books where you kind of get immersed in these families and you feel like you know them at the end, and they kind of, I think about them for like, months afterwards. They're really good reading, at least for the winter when it's cold and you spend a lot of time inside. So probably Jonathan Franzen books, yeah.
 
Trevor Freeman  35:41
Yeah, we're we're recording this just before the holidays, and I think we'll be releasing the episode after but winter is such a great time to curl up with a book, and it's awesome to have a good recommendation of a nice thing.
 
Lynn Petesch  35:53
It'll be called in January.
 
Trevor Freeman  35:56
Absolutely. So same question, but a movie or a show?
 
Lynn Petesch  36:00
Yeah, I'm not a big movie buff, but I recently rewatched What's Eating Gilbert Grape, seen it with Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, and I always felt like Leonardo DiCaprio should have received an Oscar for that performance back when he was 14. But, yeah, it's a beautiful movie. awesome.
 
Trevor Freeman  36:20
Awesome yeah, that's a bit of a blast from the past, but you're right. That is a fantastic one. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would go?
 
Lynn Petesch  36:27
French Polynesia, because it's so far I've never been a friend who went. I'm sure it's very expensive to go there, so it'd be great for someone too. Yeah, no, that's a place I'll go one day.
 
Trevor Freeman  36:41
So, yeah, fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?
 
Lynn Petesch  36:45
Yeah, that's a it's a tricky one, because I was thinking about, like, people, you know, in, I know, family, etc. But like, if I were to think about a, and it's a little left field, about a public persona, and also a bit of a blast from the past, I'll think about Tina Turner. She's been my icon since I'm a kid, I was always listening with my dad to Tina Turner. And I think the word that I've probably most used in today's episode was like resilience. And I always think about her as like possibly the most resilient woman in the world who reinvented herself and her career in her 40s and 50s, and is this complete power woman, you know, always done everything at her own terms. So get so much energy from not just her music. I've seen so many documentaries about her, and she's always been this kind of woman that I know, filthy with energy and kind of like drive. So I'm a big, big fan of Tina Turner.
 
Trevor Freeman  37:38
That's fantastic. I have to say, that's never come up on the show before, and now I need to go and dive down a rabbit hole of like, learning about Tina Turner listening to some music.
 
Lynn Petesch  37:47
Yeah, she's great woman.
 
Trevor Freeman  37:48
Yeah, good answer. Last question, what's something about the energy sector, or let's expand that to kind of the climate sector that you're really excited about?
 
Lynn Petesch  37:59
Yeah, I'm gonna take a very high level. But I think the thing I've always been following the most is, like, that broad topic of the energy transition, and I think the recent changes, or like, kind of the way we talk about it, has become a lot more interesting, because it used to be this kind of fluffy, big kind of vision, and now we're in that phase where it just has to be very practically implemented, and we're trudging along with it, no matter the political climate, etc, there is kind of a move forward. And I actually really liked the way that, I think, when I first started learning about it, or getting interested in it, it was always about renewables, and now it's around just sort of like needing to build a system that is both, like low carbon and climate resilient. And there's something in that, like way we talk about it now that I find really interesting. There's immense amounts of innovation in it. So yeah, I'm just enjoying following what's happening on that and how we are. We're moving that direction, no matter what's happening right now. So that's exciting.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:55
Yeah, okay, when I know my listeners are probably roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but it's a very exciting time to be in this industry, and very exciting to kind of see the evolution of energy and how we're interacting with it, how it's impacting our society. And we really feels like we're at an inflection point. And very great to have you working on one aspect of it that people probably don't think about a lot. So thanks very much for what you're doing.
 
Lynn Petesch  39:19
Yeah, exactly. When you start working for Overstory, the one thing that happens is, wherever you go, you see trees and power lines. And I have very keen eye for, unfortunately, trees that are in poor health right now. So that's one of the professional things I've developed.
 
Trevor Freeman  39:35
Carry like a spool of red ribbon around you can, like, tie on the at risk trees and just so someone could come along. Lynn, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. It's been great chatting with you.
 
Lynn Petesch  39:45
Thank you so much.
 
Trevor Freeman  39:46
Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear. From you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected]..

It's a new year, so we're unpacking what 2026 could bring for Canada's energy sector. Host Trevor looks back at 2025, from shifting federal policy to rapid AI adoption. Then he scans the horizon: faster major project approvals, an east–west grid push, and new hydro and small modular reactor investments in Ontario. He also touches on AI-powered DER programs, battery storage, and wider support for industrial decarbonization. Plus a quick note on the podcast's new pace.
 
Related links
 
●       Independent Electricity Systems Operator (IESO): https://www.ieso.ca/ 
 
●       Save on Energy program: https://www.saveonenergy.ca/
 
●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
 
●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  
 
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 
 
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl 
 
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ 
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Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman  00:00
Welcome to a thinkenergy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back and Happy New Year. Welcome to 2026 this is the first think energy podcast episode of this new year. Happy to be here with you. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. So last year, we started off 2025 with a little bit of a look forward at some of the energy stories we might see throughout the year. And I think this goes without saying, 2025 was a pretty eventful year when it comes to energy and politics and all things associated with that certainly had lots of twists and turns, more than any of us expected. But I kind of think that's just the new normal in all things this during this time of history, but certainly when it comes to energy as well, I think we should just expect every year to be unexpected, lots of twists and turns. So I think the best way to start this one is to look back at some of the things we said we were keeping our eye on at the beginning of last year and see how they turned out, and see whether or not our predictions or guesses were correct and kind of what happened throughout the year. So just for a little bit of context, when we recorded this episode last year, Justin Trudeau, Canada's Prime Minister at the time, had just resigned the leadership of the party and as prime minister. So we knew that a new leader was coming for the Liberal Party, and likely a federal election was on the horizon. And at the time, the Conservative Party in Canada was much more popular with voters according to polls, and it looked very much like there would be a new government, a new federal government, but that is not what happened. And I'm sure Canadians will know that is not what happened. So after Justin Trudeau resigned, the liberals climbed in the polls. They chose Mark Carney to lead them, and not long after they won the election. Now in the episode last year, I had said that should the Liberals stay in power, which seemed like a long shot at the time, but should the Liberals stay in power? We knew what their energy policy was. They would keep the carbon the price on carbon. They would invest, continue to invest, in clean energy infrastructure and continue working towards their net zero goals. They had been working on that that was kind of a main pillar of the liberal party's approach to governing, and that felt like a safe bet. But even that did not come to pass. On his first day in office, Mark Carney canceled the price on carbon, and soon after that, he paused the previous government's EV target, or target to achieve certain sales on electric vehicles, and just recently, he has signed an MOU to work with Alberta on a new bitumen pipeline. So that is a little bit different than what we expected, should a Liberal government continue? So why is all this happening? Well, this, this isn't a politics podcast, so we're not going to get into all the specifics, but plainly stated, the government is saying they want to position Canada as a leader, both in clean energy, but also economically. And there are some economic pressures that the government is under, and this is what they are saying that is the best way to move forward in that so we'll get to some of the outlook on the new government, or not so new anymore government, but the current government shortly. But let's have a look at some of the other things that we said might happen for 2025 last year, we noted that utility companies would likely continue to use AI to streamline their processes and monitor infrastructure and just really take more advantage of AI. Personally, I can say that AI has moved forward in ways that we couldn't even predict last year, at least that, you know I couldn't predict last year. I'm sure there's folks out there who totally saw where this saw where this was going, but AI really is taking off in our personal lives, certainly in the workspace and definitely in the utility space as well. So we saw some of that come true, but we also see that AI is capable of way more than that in the energy sector, like all sectors of the economy and all areas of society are really looking at new ways to use AI and figure out what's the best way to integrate this into our business. How do we take this from pilot projects to, you know, actual core parts of our business? So that's continuing for sure. We also said that electricity companies or utility companies would continue to invest in. Grid modernization, and that certainly is happening. In August of 2025 the federal government announced a plan to spend over $13 million to update Ontario's power grid, with five major projects on the horizon, which is a huge investment, and investment of this size is really intended to make the system more reliable and help manage projected electricity demand. And you know the other thing, and I'm sure I've talked about this before on other episodes, so you'll be aware that hydro Ottawa is still in the in the process of getting approval for our next five-year plan, which has big investment in reliability and modernization and supporting continued electrification. And of course, we talked a little bit about the trade conflicts with the US, and you know how Canada is responding to that. And certainly, that was a major piece of 2025 it really formed a lot of the policy, or influenced a lot of the policy of both our federal government as well as provincial government when it comes to energy projects, it's increasing that look kind of east to west, rather than north to south. So making sure that we have good interprovincial energy cooperation and collaboration. And certainly, we've saw some progress on that throughout 2025 so on the sort of provincial side of politics, again, I'm in Ontario here, so we had suggested that we would likely see a provincial election in 2025 and certainly that's exactly what happened. The Ontario Conservative Party won another mandate, and part of their approach since they've come back into power, or one that new mandate is to look to expand clean energy, look to expand our nuclear fleet in particular. And we'll talk a little bit more about this in a little bit. So that's kind of a summary of the 2025 outlook that we did a year ago. Now let's get into what might we see moving forward in 2026 and again, you know, just the caveat here, this isn't a politics podcast. This is strictly about energy. So going to try not to weigh in on one side or the other of some of these issues, just highlighting what we might see moving forward. So, first off, major projects. So in 2025, this sort of newly elected Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, founded the major projects office. This department looks to streamline the approval process for what they consider nation building projects. You know, trying to help take the approval process for those projects to be like a two-year decision rather than a five year decision under that kind of previous process that it went through. On the website for this the Liberal Party states that they open the major projects office in part to build clean energy infrastructure quickly, and of the 11 nation building projects that they've announced so far, they are categorizing eight of those 11 as clean economy projects. On top of these, Mark Kearney reiterated his commitment to building an East West electricity grid, which would link those our provinces together and help, like I said earlier, help that flow of electricity east to west, you know, between provinces improve, rather than, you know, right now, we have a lot of great north south connections between us and the United States. So the intent is that these projects will really position Canada as a leader in clean energy, help us achieve our own carbon reduction and net zero goals and ensure that we can manage growing demand for electricity. So we're in very early days of those projects yet, and what I'm highlighting here is that we expect to see a lot more information about those projects, about how they're going to proceed, timelines, etc, during the course of this year, and likely even see some new ones get added to that to that current list. So speaking of major projects, our next item that we're keeping an eye on is the Alberta to BC pipeline. This definitely has been a big news item in the latter part of 2025 and as we move into 2026 we expect to see a lot more about it and hear a lot more about it. So near the end of 2025 the federal government smart Carney signed an agreement with Alberta's Premier. Alberta's government, led by Danielle Smith, and this agreement acknowledges the plan to collaborate on and expedite the approval process for a new pipeline, which will transport oil from Alberta to the coast of BC. And the federal government is calling this a nation building project, and it would streamline the review process for this pipeline. So really make it a lot easier to get through the various hurdles in order to actually be built. And sort of initial timelines are saying Construction is expected to start in 2029 So still a few years out. But this pipeline was controversial before the agreement was signed. So this pipe. China has been on the books, or, you know, in the plans for a while, and it was controversial to start with, and this agreement has, you know, only made it more so it was really skyrocketed this project into the public's eye, and there's a lot of controversy around it. Once the announcement went public, Liberal MP, Stephen Gilbeau resigned from the Prime Minister's cabinet citing the government's decision to walk back their climate commitments. So this is definitely controversial, mainly because a new pipeline will increase fossil fuel production by, you know, at least a million barrels per day is sort of the current estimate, which is counter to Canada's stated target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and achieving net zero emissions by 2050. In addition, BC's Premier, David Eby, also opposes the project, arguing that the federal government moved ahead without meaningfully considering BCS concerns British Columbia's concerns, particularly around environmental risk and the spill response on BC's sensitive coastline and on their marine ecosystem, which would be put at risk by adding another pipeline in the area that they're talking about. In addition to that, many indigenous people in BC and elsewhere stand against the pipeline, and the government is still looking for indigenous stakeholders as part of this project. Now, Mark Carney and Danielle Smith both say they want Canada to reach its net zero target by 2050 but even after the deal was signed, Alberta announced some changes to its industrial carbon pricing mechanism that, you know, in a sense, weakened that tool, which a lot of people are kind of pointing at to say, clearly, climate targets are not a key driver in consideration in this. And so this there's a weakening of the climate tools that we do have in place is not a great sign, and we'll leave it at that. So there's a few caveats to this deal. First, the pipeline is only supposed to move forward if there's real progress on carbon capture. In other words, the pipeline and large-scale climate capture are kind of being treated as a package. So in theory, you shouldn't get one without the other. But carbon capture is yet to be implemented at scale. It's not clear that it's actually a viable solution, something that can actually have a meaningful impact at that scale. So it remains to be seen whether or not that that can actually happen second. And this is a big one, the pipeline needs a private sector partner to actually build it, and nobody stepped up for that yet. So it's important to know that this agreement between the federal government and the Provincial Government of Alberta is just to help streamline the process. Should a private sector partner come along to actually build this, the federal government's not saying they're going to fund it and build it, which is sort of contrasts with how the previous Liberal government traded a pipeline many years back. But we won't get into that here. So all that to say, don't expect any actual movement or shovels in the ground on this one anytime soon. And certainly, as this progresses, there will be lots of legal challenges, and sort of you know, there are, there are people on both sides of this, but we will hear a lot more about this in 2026 it's going to be a big news story. Things are going to happen, and we'll hear both from proponents of the pipeline as well as opposition to the pipeline throughout this year, it will definitely be a big energy story here in Canada and even beyond that, Okay, next up investments in Ontario, so let's look a little bit closer to at least home. For me, on a greener note, Ontario will expand its clean energy sector in 2026 the government has announced several new partnerships with indigenous groups, including two large scale hydroelectric dams in northern Ontario. We talked a little bit about that in a previous episode, and they've also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and update existing hydroelectric facilities to make sure that they can continue to provide clean electricity well into the future. So some of these new stations, there's the Nine Mile rapids project and the Grand Rapids project. They are coming online, you know, at a time when we really do need additional capacity on our grid. So ISO, as I've talked about many times, ISO is predicting that by 2050 we'll see a 75% increase overall in the province. But specifically in northern Ontario, demand for electricity will increase by over 80% and to meet that demand, there's, you know, this is an all tools in the toolbox. Kind of approach here, in addition to all the other great things that are happening, distributed energy resources, energy efficiency, etc, we also do need more infrastructure, more generation. The government also wants to expand Ontario's nuclear fleet. This is a government that's very keen on using nuclear. Energy and expansion of our existing nuclear assets as an important tool to provide emissions free electricity. One big step that they've taken towards this goal is investing $3 billion into four small modular reactors, which will produce, you know, 1200 approximately 1200 megawatts of energy, which is a lot that's enough to power over a million homes. Construction on these started in 2025 but the reactors aren't expected to come online until 2030 but the important point is that the government is very keen, as I said, on nuclear energy, looking to expand our emissions free electricity in order to meet our growing electricity demand, but to do so in a way that still tries to approach our climate targets and make sure that we're providing emissions free energy. Okay, next step is AI we talked about this last year, and it's well, it'll be a topic of conversation for many, many years to come. So AI and electrification, lots more in store. This year, it'll be a key investment area for energy companies. Moving forward, for sure, we'll see utilities continue to use it to build smart grids, for example, to analyze the flow of electricity on their grids in real time. And hydro Ottawa is no different. We're a part of that as well. So just in the last few weeks here, at the very end of 2025 in December, the federal government announced a $6 million investment into hydro Ottawa's der accelerator program. And part of that program looks to utilize AI to help us analyze electricity demand manage it. So this program really looks to partner with customers in specific areas, areas of constraint, to leverage their own devices. So customer owned devices like smart thermostats, battery storage systems in order to help us manage electricity demand. And we'll use AI as a function of that, or as a tool to help us do that to really forecast when we need to take action and what action we can take. But AI goes well beyond that. So electrification is going to grow. Overall, electricity demand is going to grow. We're going to see more utilities looking for solutions like large scale battery storage systems in order to tackle that demand. These systems, the storage will help relieve the grid from additional stress and better utilize the infrastructure that we do have in place. So lots more to come on, the sort of next gen of technology when it comes to AI and grid mod and how we're going to use those to help manage this growing electricity demand that we're seeing Next up, and our last kind of main topic is decarbonization. So that's not anything new. Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that we talk about this all the time, and it's one of the main drivers of what's happening in the energy industry right now. But decarbonization continues. It's not a constant flow of progress in the same direction. There's sort of ebbs and flows, if you will. We saw lots of change on the decarbonization front in the last year, but it continues to be something that organizations need to figure out. We know that we need to decarbonize as a society. Our different sectors of the economy all need to figure out how they're going to decarbonize, and the stakeholders of that really need to figure out what their role is. So the ieso, as one of those stakeholders, has also been focusing on their own decarbonization support, but mainly Their support has been focused on transportation and building heating. But we expect there to be, you know, a bit of a broadening of that look from the ISO in 2026 looking at other sectors like mining, paper, steel, you know, cement production, refining, chemicals, etc, the list goes on. So really look to see potentially more support for others, other areas of the economy, and how they will achieve decarbonization with, you know, could be industry specific programs or initiatives. We should probably see more of that in the coming year. But that's not to diminish from the existing programs that are already in place, and we'll see more leverage of, for example, of the ISOs existing save on energy incentive programming which helps existing commercial businesses, industrial businesses, residential customers, really target energy efficiency, energy reduction in the in the decarbonization in their own lives or workplaces. So there will be continued leverage of that. Utilities will continue to promote that. So expect to see that be a big piece of 2026 so that's the areas that we've that we've identified in 2026 it'll be interesting to look back a year from now to see you know what happened? Was it in line with what we said here? What came out of the blue that we totally didn't expect? Or what was a bigger deal than. Maybe we thought it would be but really look forward to this year. We've got lots of great conversations planned with some fantastic guests, and really looking forward to exploring some of these topics. Certainly, looking for you guys to connect with us and interact with us. Send us a note, find us on social media. Think energy at hydro ottawa.com is our email address always looking for guest recommendations, topic recommendations, questions, feedback. I'd certainly love to hear from you. You might know it's a little bit of a change in how we do things in 2026 we're certainly committed to continuing to bring you great content and great guests, but we might be shifting to maybe more of a monthly format, so really focusing on bringing those experts on, giving us the time and the space to plan those episodes, to coordinate with the guests and bring you great content. So we'll be looking at one episode a month moving forward, but always happy to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on that format or again topics, guests certainly reach out. Okay, so that wraps up our first episode of the year. Like I said, really looking forward to getting into all the great content this year with you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Happy New Year, and we'll chat with you again soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. To spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

In Part 2 of the Holiday Rewind, Trevor revisits five standout episodes from thinkenergy in 2025. The conversations focus on renewable energy, from Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) and building decarbonization to energy storage, district energy, and the policy forces shaping it all. This episode reflects on how renewables are becoming personal, scalable, and central to Canada's smart energy future. Listen in for a thoughtful look at the momentum we've built and the progress we made.
 
Related links
 
Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/ 

Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/ 

Episode 152 (Capturing lightning in a bottle with Energy Storage Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/capturing-lightning-in-a-bottle-with-energy-storage-canada/ 

Episode 154 (Reimagining heating and cooling with district energy systems): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/reimagining-heating-and-cooling-with-district-energy-systems/ 

Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  

 
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: 
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
 
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
 
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
 
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Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
 
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
---
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman  00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. Welcome to the second of our special year end holiday rewind episodes that we do here on the think energy podcast, I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, in our last episode, we looked at five conversations or snippets of conversations that we thought, you know, helped shape the way we think about the grid, everything from politics to grid modernization to large scale investments, what Hydro Ottawa in particular is proposing to invest in our grid, but Today is all about the fuel that powers our clean energy future. And I don't mean all the candy and gingerbread and all the sugar that we're going to eat over the next little while, although those help too. I'm talking about renewable energy, solar, District Energy Systems, how we're using distributed technologies to really transform the way we generate and manage and use power here in Canada. Think of this episode as a bit of a, you know, warm fireside reflection on the progress that we've made, the momentum we're carrying into the year ahead. But also keep in mind how far we have to go. We've got more work to do, and 2026 needs to be another year of focusing on that. But today we're going to revisit portions of, you know, five conversations from 2025 that really show how renewable energy isn't just a trend, it's an accelerating shift that's reshaping our homes and our businesses, our communities and even the grid itself. So let's jump right in with our first clip. So today we're going to start with a clip that's close to my heart, because I talk about distributed energy resources all the time, and you guys hear me talk about that all the time with guests and in some of the solo episodes that I do, it's one of the clearest signs that renewable energy is moving from kind of the fringes of the grid, the very large centralized systems to really write on our own rooftops and backyards and on our businesses, DERs represent really that bottom up renewable revolution. So rooftop solar, home batteries, smart EV chargers and more, these are becoming technologies that our friends and neighbors and us, even the listeners of this podcast, have and are using to add real clean energy to the grid and using it in smarter ways. So here's a moment from my distributed energy resources episode that looks at how DERs are becoming those practical tools for resilience, for decarbonization and just for everyday energy use. So let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of time. Of course, if you're using one of those non renewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel. But it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford F150 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid, or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits, and I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. Renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. You know what I love about this is just how simple. Empowering. It truly is. Renewable energy isn't industrial scale anymore. You know, everybody can at least envision themselves playing a part in the renewable transition. There's incentives out there to support putting renewables in the business case. Is starting to make sense for homes, for businesses, it's becoming local. And as these DERs grow, they don't just decarbonize homes, they also strengthen resiliency, and, you know, support the other drivers that people have for their energy, having more control over it, having resiliency and backup during outages, etc. And this theme of people having more agency and control over their energy really ties into the next clip that we're going to show as well. We're revisiting again we played this on the last holiday rewind, but we're revisiting our conversation with the Building Decarb Alliance about buildings. Buildings are one of Canada's largest sources of emissions. They're also one of the biggest opportunities for renewable driven change. So in this conversation with Brian Flanagan, we talk about how renewable energy and electrification, so from heat pumps to solar grid integrated building systems, how these things are reshaping the way we heat and cool and power the places that we live and work. And in this clip, I really think it captures the scale of the challenge and the optimism of the transition. You really can't overstate the importance of buildings in our lives. We eat, sleep, work, learn and socialize in buildings, among many, many other things, a huge percentage of our lives takes place inside buildings. In fact, most of us probably have to make a conscious effort to actually spend time outside of buildings. I know that I try to make a point of spending time outside every day, and I have to be conscious about it, because it might not otherwise happen. And as a result of that, centrality in our lives, buildings are major users of energy. Some estimates say that around 30 to 40% of energy use in Canada is associated with buildings, and they're also a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So around maybe 18% or so in Canada. That means that the buildings themselves and the way we build them, the way we heat them, the way we use them, are an important part of our efforts to decarbonize and to further the ongoing energy transition.
 
Bryan Flannigan  07:24
We tend to focus on kind of four main areas, making sure that there's policy support at various levels of government, and understanding which policies might be effective and which ones might be less so, and trying to advance the ones that are high leverage, looking at the grid impacts of electrifying buildings. Because it's undeniable that if you switch from fossil combustion of fossil fuels to electricity, you require a clean electricity system that has to have the capacity and be robust enough to support that. So we want to be clear about that. We want to really address that in a cogent sort of way, and then really mobilizing and activating the sector to implement these changes and to find the solutions, because many of the solutions are at the intersection of different subsets of the of the sector, whether it's banking and finance, or whether it's development community or the utilities, every market actor has a role to play to find solutions. Is very rarely one sub sector that can really act to, you know, to overcome a barrier. And so we try to work at the intersection of these different groups, and by convening the players, we can roll up our sleeves and kind of get to that. And then, last but not least, you know, this is a very complex sort of question in terms of, how do we get there? What are the pathways? It kind of reminds me of nutrition, medicine, things like that, where, you know, at one instance, it's great to eat eggs, and another instance, terrible to eat eggs, and then it's good to eat eggs again, because the evidence is shifting right, and we have to follow the evidence. We have to understand that the systems are complex and that various investments in the grid will alter the landscape. And so we're working really hard to increase the analytical capacity of the sector, to model and to be able to understand how this will really play out when you have exponential sort of technological advancement coming to play, and you know, different investments and different dynamics that are bearing out as the sector decarbonizes, which is, it's really complex, and so we need better tools to be able to grapple with that. So those are the four sort of main areas, and it's a heavy lift. We arrive on the scene with great humility, recognizing that we stand on the shoulder of many, many other organizations who have come into the space, trying to take a slightly different approach by bringing all the players together and trying to find some common understanding of how we how we get this done. You know, we have to do something different. We've been doing energy efficiency for four decades, give or take with the programming that we've had, and it's been very effective. I don't think there's any more old T 12 light bulbs anywhere that worked. That's great, but we need to do something different now to get fossil fuels out of the buildings for heating purposes, right? That's the goal.
 
Trevor Freeman  09:53
So what resonates most for me about Bryan's message is the idea that buildings aren't obstacles to decarbonization. They're really. The engines for it, as the renewable electricity systems we have our buildings will become smarter, cleaner, more efficient, and as we talk about we spend a lot of our time in buildings. And so when we think about grid interactive homes to solar ready construction and thermal storage, the building sector is really becoming a major driver, or has the potential to become a major driver of renewable transformation. So speaking of storage, this next clip is a revisit of the conversation that I had with Justin Rangooni from Electricity Storage Canada, and we explored one of the biggest enablers of renewable energy growth, which is battery storage, because, you know, let's face it, the sun isn't always shining and the wind isn't always blowing in the right direction. And with batteries, you can really create flexibility and stability for your renewable systems. And ultimately, that comes down to possibility. So my conversation with Justin really walks through how these battery systems both utility scale but also behind the meter, kind of more individual sized unlock far more renewable energy by making it dispatchable, resilient, responsive, et cetera. And I think in this next clip, we really capture that beautifully.
 
Justin Rangooni  11:16
Okay, so the best way to think of it is. There's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at it from a grid management point of view is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid. If it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero, low, low carbon, and we don't have coal, so it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp, or the natural gas units. Now, energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, down to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of, now, we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side of poles and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car, so really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery from my home for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and, you know, using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house. But the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,
 
Trevor Freeman  13:38
Yeah, and I think it's, it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner. There is a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with energy storage. And like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community based energy systems kind of more control at the community level. When it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?
 
Justin Rangooni  14:34
Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car, it seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle. You could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community-based energy. Systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting, that everyone's playing a role. There are different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when it's excess supply, I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community-based energy systems.
 
Trevor Freeman  15:53
Yeah, really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner or the community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So really, every renewable energy expansion story has, you know, a chapter on storage. Batteries are no longer just an add on. They're becoming really an essential part of the conversation and a consideration for all these projects. And like Justin said, you know, a battery is like bacon. It makes everything better. And I couldn't agree more about bacon and batteries, from batteries powering homes and emergencies to grid scale storage, smoothing out renewable intermittency to neighborhood level systems, supporting micro grids, these are all things that we'll hopefully start to see more in our lives and in our communities. Battery storage is really what turns renewable energy into performance, great performance, and we're actually going to see those impacts. It's also tying into our next episode, because if batteries make renewables flexible, then something like a district energy system is how you really take that to scale. So in this episode that we're going to play a clip from, we took a deep dive into a world that often operates behind the scenes. And it was really great to reconnect with kind of an old friend and colleague, Scott Demark, about district energy systems. These systems provide heating and cooling to entire neighborhoods or campuses by using centralized, efficient infrastructure. And you know, you maybe you're asking, why does this tie into renewable energy? And that's because district systems are one of the most effective ways to integrate large scale renewable heat sources, whether that's taking waste heat from existing sources or geo exchange biomass, you know, ultra-efficient thermal storage, and putting that to good use. And so listen to this clip from my conversation with Scott that kind of captures that idea. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?
 
Scott Demark  18:29
I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth and so they don't have the same cost structure. And oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale, that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where you know you might want to go and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it. But if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources doesn't matter. So you may have at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy Systems a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a cogeneration facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system, augment, not fully replace, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.
 
Trevor Freeman  21:24
And because district energy systems make renewable energy more affordable through scalability and shared infrastructure, in some cases, the economic case for entire communities or neighborhoods or even large industrial complexes to adopt them is really becoming something that people are looking at. It's becoming more compelling. It's not going to work in every instance, as we talk about with Scott in the full episode, but it really kind of opens the door to more possibilities. And that brings us to our final episode highlight, which is a big picture look at some of the politics and trends and strategies that helped shape renewable energy in 2025 now we played a clip from this episode in our last rewind episode, but I want to revisit another part of that episode, and this is the beginning of the year when I kind of laid out some of the trends and things that we thought might shape energy politics in the year ahead, in 2025 and we looked at Canada and the US and global markets to really try and get a sense of where renewable energy was heading, just to remind you of where we were back then. We were facing a couple of elections ahead of us and the possibility for new or different federal governments, political government or provincial government. Sorry, looking at affordability conversations worldwide, momentum around clean generation. In this clip that we're going to play, we really talk about how renewable energy doesn't advance in isolation. It moves forward because of political, economic and technological factors that really help shape those conditions and create those conditions for growth, and those are essential if we do want to grow together. So I'm going to play this clip here and have a listen to kind of what we were thinking about at the beginning of 2025 and just a quick teaser, we'll be doing something similar in the early part of 2026 and so that'll give us a chance to maybe pick apart how close we were to reality. So without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025, is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away, as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration, in what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, Energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada. So we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy a little bit closer to home. However, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing, that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So we could be looking at a new government or a new mandate for the existing government. So what might that mean? Well, if the. The liberal party, the current government manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure. They will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve Net Zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely that conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that, the one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon, that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is, so they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in the sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability. So as we've said, renewable energy progress doesn't just depend on the technology itself, it depends on the systems around it. 2025 really turned out to be a pretty pivotal year. And I think we'll probably look at every year in recent history and moving forward as pivotal years, because there was this convergence of political shifts and economic pressures and policy decisions that in some ways created a supportive environment for renewable energy planning and implementation, but not without barriers and not without challenges and so we're probably not where we would have wanted to be at the end of 2025 if we Were being absolutely optimistic. And thinking about a great outcome for the end of the year, but that's not to say progress wasn't made. As we close out part two of our holiday rewind, one thing becomes crystal clear, and something that I want to highlight, renewable energy isn't just a single technology or single story, it's a movement made of many different interconnected pieces, from the specific technologies of DERs that empower our customers to the buildings that are evolving into clean energy assets, to the batteries that are helping unlock flexibility in our renewable energy systems, to systems like district energy that are really transforming communities and campuses, and finally, to the policies and trends and, you know, other forces that are really shaping the pace of all this progress together, they show that there is a future that's cleaner and smarter and more resilient and far more electrified. These things are possible, and we are moving in that direction. The big question is always the pace that we're moving at. Thanks for joining me for our final rewind of the year. In fact, our final episode of the year. On behalf of the entire thinkenergy team, we really are grateful for your time, your curiosity and your commitment to understanding the energy transition, and, quite frankly, to your expertise. I know a lot of folks listening, and everybody that I have on the show really has a lot of great thinking and knowledge on these topics, and I'm really appreciative of getting to talk to those folks and bring some of that insight to the show. We will be back in the new year, absolutely, with more conversations that the goal is to illuminate and challenge and inspire and really continue this conversation with all of you and with our fantastic guests. Until then, stay warm, stay safe and stay energized. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Canada's energy transition isn't coming. It's already here. As 2025 winds down, Trevor shares a holiday rewind featuring five of the most electrifying conversations from the thinkenergy podcast this year. From clean energy trends and Hydro Ottawa's investment plan to grid modernization, the rise of DERs, and decarbonizing buildings. Sit down with something warm and revisit the insights, challenges, and big ideas that defined our fast-moving energy landscape in 2025.
 
Related links
 
Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/

Episode 160 (Digging into Hydro Ottawa's historically large investment plan): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-digging-into-hydro-ottawas-historically-large-investment-plan/ 

Episode 162 (Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/ 

Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/ 

Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/ 

Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/

Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en  

 
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman  00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. This is our special holiday rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast, which has become a bit of a tradition around here. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and as we settle into the final days of the year, it feels like the perfect time to slow down and take a look back at some of the conversations that we feel really shaped 2025 at least, for the podcast and in our own minds. This year, we explored everything from grid modernization to decarbonizing buildings distributed energy resources (DERs) and some of the technologies that are really defining how Canadians live, work and stay connected. Today's episode is the first of a two-part holiday rewind series, each part highlighting five standout episodes that we feel really sparked ideas curiosity and great discussions throughout the year. So pull up a comfortable seat, pour yourself something seasonal and festive, and join me as we revisit some of the insights and innovations that we feel lit up 2025 to start with, we kicked off 2025 with a forward looking conversation on some of the trends that we thought might shape the year, and to be honest that many of them unfolded even more quickly than we expected. In our first episode of 2025 we looked at clean energy trends. We talked through how electrification and AI driven grid intelligence and new customer expectations were really going to change the landscape in real time for us, here's a moment that we captured just how quickly the industry is accelerating and why adaptability is so important to us. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DERs on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives, through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization, but I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize, we cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology. So there is no year anymore. In fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine, and it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December, 2025 that we didn't even know here today in January. So there you have it. That's going back 12 months. And my expectation of what 2025 might have in store in the new year, I'll be doing a similar deep dive on some of the trends that we've been seeing over the course of this year and what we might expect to continue into 2026 but that idea that the pace of change is accelerating certainly became one of the defining themes of the year, and I think is something that we can expect to stick with us for the foreseeable future. And I think you'll hear echoes of that in all the different episodes that we revisit today. Next up, a modern, reliable grid doesn't just happen. It's built through long term planning, thoughtful investments and a deep understanding of how our communities are growing and how their energy needs are changing. In an episode that we. Least back in June, we unpacked hydro Ottawa's 2026 to 2030 investment plan, and what that means for reliability and customer experience and preparing the system for tomorrow. In this next clip, I chat with Hydro Ottawa's Guillaume Paradis to really get into why it's so critical that we get our investment in the next five years, right for our grid, so that that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan we're out there outlining. These are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas, what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like, quality of service, reliability, safety, etc, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.
 
Guillaume Paradis  06:03
Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? What we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 26 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years, what would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers live, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially. From a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, you know, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and. Doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes, like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources, that might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets are inherently more likely to create failure risks and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be an R always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences. And of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.
 
Trevor Freeman  12:29
So that forward focus, that planning for the city that Ottawa is becoming and our energy needs of the future really reflects that shifting mindset that we're seeing across the whole sector. And I think we saw that throughout 2025 and certainly are going to keep seeing that throughout 2026 for our next clip, one of our most popular conversations of the year, not surprisingly, was with Andrea Nuesser from Capgemini, Canada. Andrea and I dug deep into what it means to modernize the grid, how technology, data, cybersecurity and customer expectations are all coming together and pushing utilities into a new era of grid management and grid design. This was a really great, wide-ranging conversation, but there was one moment that really stood out for its clarity and simplicity, and it highlighted this idea that modernizing the grid isn't just about technology alone. It's primarily about people. Yeah, well, let's do that right now. Actually, it's exactly where I wanted to go. Next is you and I have chatted before and talked about how there is this shift in how utilities are seeing customers, and there's a traditional mindset of how utilities looked at their customers, which has been different from you know, take your average retail customer, or retail relationship between an organization and a customer, utilities are shifting more. So let's dive into that. Tell me a little bit more about what that shift is, and how you see utilities moving in terms of how they engage with customers.
 
Andrea Nuesser  14:00
Yeah, so when I started working with utilities, the term rate payer was a very prominent term. So utilities would refer to their customers as rate payers, or in terms of account numbers, really and what mattered was really just how much electricity do these accounts or these rate payers consume, and there was very little other consideration around that. So I think there's a real shift happening right now where utilities are trying to understand who is this, who is this family, who are these individuals behind these account numbers? Because if I understand and if I become interested as a utility in who is actually consuming electricity, I can have a very different relationship with them. I can reach them with the right messaging, because it matters a lot to me. And if somebody talks to me and understands that. Let's say I'm a growing family living in a more urban area versus a retired couple out in the booth somewhere. So I think demonstrating that understanding really opens up opportunities for much deeper relationship and more targeted customer programs and overall, different messaging and communication, and ultimately an opportunity to build trust between customers and utilities, something that in the past, has been a little bit shaky, I would say, but there's huge opportunity to build brand awareness, to build this, this value based relationship and to build trust.
 
Trevor Freeman  15:45
I really liked this conversation, and I liked this particular moment because it really conveys that grid modernization goes beyond just the technological improvements, and it really prioritizes the human relationships and human interaction at the heart of our energy system, ultimately, all of this that we talk about on the show, the technology, the strategies, the policies, it's all about how we as people, as energy consumers, interact with our energy systems and use it to do all the other things in our life that are important doing, you know, heating our spaces and traveling and moving our families from one place to another, and all these things that are actually the important things are tied up in the energy system. And I liked how this conversation really tied those, those two concepts together. Next up this year, we definitely talked about distributed energy resources. It's been a theme of the podcast for a long time now, but we really are seeing lots of movement and progress. And this episode that I'm about to highlight really broke down how rooftop solar, battery storage, EVs, smart devices, they're all creating a more dynamic, flexible and decentralized grid. So it's taking DERs from just kind of standalone devices that do their own thing to really this ecosystem of devices and technologies that interact together. In this clip that you're about to hear, we explore why DERs, they're not just a technical change, but they're really a cultural one as well. One option to set up your der for financial reasons, is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. Here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. And finally, last one for this episode, one of our more thought provoking conversations of the year was with Bryan Flannigan from the Building Decarbonization Alliance. In this conversation, we talked about decarbonizing Canada's buildings. Bryan helped us really unpack why buildings are such a significant part of Canada's emissions profile, and why solutions require systems thinking, collaboration and long-term commitment. This clip really kind of captures the heart of that conversation, balancing practicality with urgency. Yeah, I know on this show, we talk a lot about the different parts of, as you said, all of society that need to be decarbonized. Obviously, buildings kind of comes to the forefront often, and so specifically around buildings talk us through this, maybe kind of a basic question, but, you know, help our listeners understand, why are buildings so important? Why is the decarbonization of our built environments so important when it comes to decarbonizing all of society?
 
Bryan Flannigan  19:17
Yeah, I mean, that's the crux of the question, right? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, if you think about it, the building, this is where we live, right? These are our homes. These are this is where we go to work. This is our place. Is a business from an economic perspective, organizations arrive in jurisdictions for the purposes of meeting their overall objectives. And if you require energy intensive sort of production. Or if you want to have a big workforce, you want to house your workforce in buildings that align with your objectives. And increasingly, those objectives feature a carbon kind of future, right? And so just from that perspective, it's important for us to kind of get aligned with the global trend toward this, to make sure that we have the investments that we need. And that we want to attract, and we want to have places where people can live that are aligned with those kinds of values. But from an emissions perspective, it's hard to kind of overstate how important the sector actually winds up being. The building sector emits about 90 megatons, give or take, of direct scope one emissions. And if you factor in the grid emissions that result from being buildings being connected to the grids across Canada. It's about 120 megatons. There are digits there that we could go into. But to put it into context, that's about the same as all of the vehicles on the road. So when we think about how important it is to electrify the fleet of vehicles that we're all driving, the building sector is the same. It's the same level of importance. And if we think about all of the work that we've done to decarbonize our electricity system over the years, eliminating coal plants, and those kinds of initiatives that we hear are in the news recently, the building sector emits about twice as much as all of that. And so, the context is that buildings are pretty vast in terms of the overall emissions. And when we think about where those emissions come from, ultimately, it's combustion of fossil fuels for heating our buildings. We're in a cold climate in Canada, takes a lot of energy to heat buildings, and because of the abundance of the resource and a bunch of policy decisions that have been made decades ago, you know, we're in a situation where we've got an abundant and relatively inexpensive source of fossil fuel to heat our buildings. It's about 1500 petajoules, I guess, give or take, and ultimately, we need to move to eliminate that over time, or to largely eliminate it. I mean, I think there's always going to be a bit left in the system. There's, you know, it's, it's a very complex and daunting task, because the building sector itself is very diverse. The buildings last a really long time. It's not like, you know, technology change, where you have if you want to change a phone, you can upgrade it from one year to the next. It's small. It fits in your pocket. It's easy to manage. But buildings are constructed to last hundreds, 100 years. 50 years is the typical lifespan. But, you know, we have lots of buildings that are very, very old, and it's a slow kind of system to turn over. It's a slow inventory to turn over. So it's a really big challenge, a lot of a lot of emissions from the sector. And so it rises to the level of really needing close attention and a different approach than what we've been taking in the past.
 
Trevor Freeman  22:15
Bryan's point there about systems level planning really resonates deeply with all the things we've been talking about this year, because none of these challenges exist in isolation. And systems thinking and systems planning is really this important concept or this important ethos, and something I actually want to explore further. And so keep your eyes open for an episode on that sometime in 2026 so as we wrap up this first of two holiday rewind episodes. The few themes keep rising to the surface. There's the accelerating pace of electrification. No question that we're seeing electrification continue to move forward, and to do so at an increasing pace, despite some bumps in the road, and we're going to see that. We're going to see two steps forward and one step back. But I think we're still seeing an increased pace of electrification, we are seeing the importance of modernization, of moving the technologies that we use to monitor and manage the grid forward in terms of, you know, catching up to where we are with modern technology. And we're also seeing the need for long-term thinking as Canada transitions towards a, you know, low or no carbon future towards net zero as we electrify our lives, we need to have that long term vision in mind, whether we're talking about the future of buildings, upgrading the grid, embracing distributed energy resources or navigating some new and emerging technologies. There's one truth that kind of stood out, and it's something I've said before, but I really want to make sure everyone kind of sits with this and appreciates it. Is that the energy transition is not something that is going to happen? It's not something that's in the future. It is something that's happening right now. We are in the midst of the energy transition. It's not going to be over tomorrow. It's not one of these things that happens very quickly, but we are living it right now. We are seeing it all around us, and it's something that I'm really excited about, talking on this podcast about and with our fantastic guests, and I'm glad to have all of you along with us on that journey. So join us in two weeks for the second part of our holiday rewind series. On that one, we're going to turn the spotlight towards renewable energy and revisit some of the conversations that inspired us the most in 2025 until then, from all of us at think energy, warm wishes for the holiday season. I hope you're staying warm and safe and have a great December and thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Waves, river currents, and tidal turbines could help power Canada's clean energy future. Trevor speaks with Elisa Obermann, Executive Director at Marine Renewables Canada, about the promise of marine energy and how countries like Canada are pursuing its potential. They explore how emerging 'blue energy' technologies complement solar and wind, support coastal and Indigenous communities, and move us toward a more sustainable, diverse net-zero grid.
 
Related links 
 
Marine Renewables Canada: https://marinerenewables.ca/



Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy (FORCE): https://fundyforce.ca/



canmetENERGY: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/science-data/science-research/research-centres/canmetenergy



Yuquot Wave Energy Project: https://barkley.ca/project/yuquot-wave-energy-project/



Blind Channel Tidal Energy Demonstration Centre: https://onlineacademiccommunity.uvic.ca/primed/blind-channel/



European Marine Energy Center (EMEC): https://www.emec.org.uk/



Canadian Hydrokinetic Turbine Test Centre: (CHTTC): http://www.chttc.ca/



Elisa Obermann on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisa-obermann-07469245/ 

 
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 

 
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   

 
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman  00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. I have a really great conversation for you today, but before I get to that, I think it's worth a minute or two of time to revisit some first principles people approach the energy conversation from all different backgrounds and angles, and I think it's good to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to some foundational knowledge before we dive into our topic today, the thing that I want to quickly review is electricity generation. Now don't worry, we're not going to get into an advanced physics level of knowledge on this, but I just want to quickly refresh everyone on the basics. And by the same token, to all of you advanced physics folks out there that are listening, please forgive me if I'm slightly off on a detail or two, as long as I don't mess up the core foundational information. So for the most part, the electricity that we use is primarily generated by spinning a coil of wire around a magnet, or inversely, spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire that causes electrons to move, and that flow of electrons is electricity. For the most part, that combination of coiled wire and magnets and a spinning motion is what makes most of our electricity. There is one major exception to this, which is solar power that doesn't involve spinning anything. But other than that, our major electricity sources utilize that spinning motion, and I'm not including hydrogen fuel cells here as a major source of electricity. So let's keep going with this spinning idea. Then the next question is, how do we make things spin? One very common method is heat. Let's say you burn something, coal or natural gas, for example, which creates heat. You then use that heat to boil water, which makes steam, which you can push at high pressure against turbine blades to make them spin. It's as simple as that. The problem is, burning things creates harmful emissions, which are causing climate change. You can also generate heat with non emitting sources, and a major one, especially here in Ontario, is nuclear power, splitting atoms in a controlled environment, a nuclear reaction generates heat and then the process is the same as previously described. So as complex as a nuclear reactor is its main purpose when it comes to electricity generation, is simply making heat so we can boil water and create steam, et cetera, other than heat. The other way to make things spin is to utilize naturally occurring kinetic energy. So that means something that's already happening out there that carries a lot of force that can push a turbine blade. This would include wind energy, so using the force of the wind to turn large wind turbines and hydro electricity, which uses water being pulled downhill by gravity, so a flowing river or a large dam to turn that turbine the same end results that spinning motion, but no need to create heat to get there. We're almost done with the science lesson, so just bear with me for another few seconds as we think about reducing our carbon emissions, finding ways to generate electricity that don't require burning fossil fuels is really important. Solar definitely has a role to play, but we also need more emissions free ways to spin things. I mentioned some of the more traditional ones, like solar and wind energy, but today's conversation is about some lesser known, emerging methods, which are covered by the term marine renewable energy generation. Phew, it was a long walk to get there, but we finally got here. All of that is to tee up my conversation today with Elisa Obermann, the Executive Director of Marine Renewables Canada. Marine Renewables Canada is the National Association for tidal wave and river current energy in addition to offshore wind. But it's those first three generation strategies that I am particularly interested in as non mainstream ways to spin things. These technologies are known as blue energy, but are often overshadowed by the more common renewable energies that we talked about, solar and wind generation. So I'm really excited to chat with Elisa to shed some light on them. Today. Elisa has served as the executive director of marine renewables Canada since 2015 she's a founding member of both the Electricity Alliance Canada and the Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity. She has also worked for several other organizations that focus on clean technology, tidal energy and the broader renewable energy sector, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy. Which you'll hear us talk about today as force and Nova scotia's Department of Energy. Elisa Obermann, welcome to the show.
 
Elisa Obermann  05:07
Hi. Thank you very much for having me.
 
Trevor Freeman  05:09
So, let's start off kind of with the basics. Elisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this pretty unique space in the energy sector that we're going to dive into a little bit more.
 
Elisa Obermann  05:22
Sure. So I decided after doing my undergrad, so I'm going kind of way back here, all the way back. Yeah, exactly. I did a degree, a bachelor's degree in English, but I really wanted to get involved in something that would help me do more for the environment, play a role in the future. So I decided to go back to school to do a public policy degree. And the first internship I had was with Nova Scotia Department of Energy, and it was actually on the oil and gas side of things, but my thinking was, well, this will get me eventually to where I want to go and working more in renewables. And that's essentially exactly what happened. And so I started working more and more there on renewable energy. Then started working on the province's marine renewable energy strategy. So it really kind of got me into this kind of path of, you know, working on climate change and renewable energy. And the other thing I will also say is that I grew up in Maine and really close to the ocean, and so after university, I moved to Toronto for a while, and I thought to myself, like, I really just want to do something that takes me back to the ocean. So this really combines both kind of goals I had for myself, in terms of working to protect and help the environment, and then also staying close to the ocean.
 
Trevor Freeman  06:35
Yeah. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people, obviously, and often the question of career path comes up, and it's funny to see the things that we're passionate about in those early days, no one could guess how that comes to fruition later on in our careers. And you know, I've got some similar stories of wanting to save the world when I was in university and having no idea how the different paths that that would take me on. So great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing that. Tell us now a little bit about your organization, marine renewable Canada, and you know, kind of its vision for how marine renewables will fit into the energy sector.
 
Elisa Obermann  07:10
Yeah. So marine renewables Canada is a National Association. We're headquartered in Halifax, but we do work across the country, and actually, our beginnings were in British Columbia, really starting around like wave energy, small scale projects. One of our founding members at the time was BC Hydro. We now have over 200 members, and that's really grown just in the past couple years, because our focus is on wave, tidal, river current energy, but also offshore wind. And so there's been a lot of excitement, especially on the East Coast, around offshore wind, but today I'll probably focus mostly on kind of those water resources and how we're working to advance those. Our mandate is really to champion the sector, help with advocacy, engagement, education, and also expand market opportunities. So obviously we do a lot of work around enabling policies that help open up that market, both here, but also globally. But ultimately, what we'd like to see is that marine renewables is playing a role in getting Canada to net zero and right now. I mean, it's a more emerging technology, if you look at wave, tidal and river, but there's a lot of potential for it to play a big role.
 
Trevor Freeman  08:20
Yeah, so great. And that's a great segue into kind of the next thing I want to talk about on this show. We often talk about, let's call them the more traditional or conventional or well known energy sources, so our kind of traditional fossil fuel combustion, our other renewable sources, solar and wind, and even offshore wind, I think people have a sense of what that is. I mean, wind energy is the same on land as off land. It's just in a different location. But tell us about the types of marine energy that you're talking about. You just referenced some of them here, you know, take us back to basics. What are we talking about when we talk about marine energy?
 
Elisa Obermann  08:56
 Yeah, absolutely. So I would categorize it as four main kinds, but I also will mention that there are some that our association doesn't cover. And I will touch on those, sure, primarily. So we focus on tidal energy. And when I say tidal I don't mean barrages or dams, which were kind of a more prevalent technology, you know, decades ago. What I'm talking about is what we call tidal stream and so essentially, if you think of, you know, what wind turbines look like, it's essentially a wind turbine, but in the water, so it can be developed or deployed incrementally, which is a lot different than what you think of when you think of a dam that has, you know, very long lasting effects. The idea behind title is that you can install it incrementally if there's concerns and with any kind of impacts to the environment, or concerns with, you know, the technology failing, or anything like that, you are able to remove it, or, you know, have maintenance on it fairly quickly. Wave Energy is another one that we focus on. It's the technology is not as far along as tidal in terms of, you know, getting to a commercial state. And there are many different. Different types of concepts, still for Wave technologies, but essentially, they can be placed near shore or further offshore. One of the things that's been, I think, kind of cool to think about is there's discussions around and some prototype type projects around using wave energy to power, for example, oil and gas platforms and doing that kind of, you know, pairing to help decarbonize that sector's energy use, river current. So I will say a lot of people think marine like that doesn't, you know, make sense rivers, you know, not by the ocean. And the reason we look at it and categorize it as a Marine renewable energy is that the technology is very similar to title, and so it's essentially the same technology that's used, except that it is unidirectional. So when you think of the flow of river, it's going one way, whereas tides, the technology would be used as a bi directional because the tides are going in and out. So but otherwise very, very similar. And then we actually also cover offshore wind, which is, of all of those, you know, a more mature marine renewable technology. And as I said, I think probably today I'll talk mostly about some of the earlier stage technologies. Our association doesn't cover a few others, and I just feel like they're worth mentioning, just because they're kind of cool. Also, floating solar is one that is gaining, you know, I think some more popularity, and also people are looking more what you know, how much of an impact it could have, ocean current technology, which would be kind of further offshore, and ocean thermal. And you can imagine, Ocean Thermal hasn't really been talked about a lot in Canada, because you have colder waters. Like, the technology just isn't right, the right fit.
 
Trevor Freeman  11:35
Got you okay? So I want to, I've got a whole whack of questions I want to understand, make sure I'm understanding the technology correctly. So let's start with Tidal. For Tidal, obviously, just a quick refresher back to, let's say grade 10 science for our listeners. Tides kind of come in and come out. The water moves up and moves down. You're utilizing that flow of water, that movement of water, which happens twice a day. Is that, right? Twice a day, every 12 hours?
 
Elisa Obermann  12:02
Yep,
 
Trevor Freeman  12:02
Good, yeah, just making sure I remember my grades and science most part. And you're using that movement of water to turn turbines that are underwater. Describe those for us. Is that, like you kind of related it to wind energy? Is it like a big wind turbine underwater? Does it look the same? Is it similar to that?
 
Elisa Obermann  12:20
Yeah, I mean, there's still a few different concepts, but essentially, yeah, that's how you could picture in your mind. I will say some are bottom mounted. So as an example, like it might have a gravity base and be anchored to the well, not even anchored. It could just be the weight of it is holding it to the sea floor. Some of the newer tidal technologies are floating. They're kind of like, on a pontoon type device, and they will have kind of the, you know, the turbines connected to that. But essentially, they're, you know, either way, whether it's floating or seabed mounted, it would be capturing the kinetic energy of the tides
 
Trevor Freeman  12:54
Gotcha, okay. And then for the run of river ones, it's, it's kind of the same thing. Water is flowing. Typically, rivers are flowing downhill, so that water is always moving, and you've got a turbine in there taking advantage of the fact that that water is moving in a situation where there isn't a dam that's using sort of gravity flow. It's, but it's the same idea. It's, it's flowing water that's turning a turbine. Yes, exactly. So then the one that I'm, I'm sort of not entirely clear on, is waves, like, what is the mechanism there? Is it just the same thing? You're just putting it in a location where there's prevailing waves generated by wind or current or whatever.
 
Elisa Obermann  13:28
Yeah, that one, I will say, is harder to describe, because I've mentioned there's many different concepts for it, but essentially, if you think of waves like so one concept, maybe this will be easy to visualize, would be more of like a buoy type device, and so it's capturing the height of the wave, like that energy coming through. There's some also called like an oyster. So it opens, like the device opens and closes to capture kinetic energy from waves as well. There's a number of different devices when it comes to to wave energy. And I will also say, depending on where, whether it's closer to shore or further offshore, that the strength of the energy from waves is also can be different too. .
 
Trevor Freeman  14:08
Yeah. So that's actually what, exactly what my next question was is, how far offshore are we placing these things? Are they like, right at the shore's edge? Are they visible? Are they kind of, you know, whatever, 100 metre out? 500 metres out?
 
Elisa Obermann  14:22
Yeah, in terms of for TIDAL, I mean, it would be closer to shore, but not necessary. I mean, still quite far out. It's not like you're looking at it and you're, you know, few 100 feet away, further. As an example, like in Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy has had several tidal deployments, and it depends on where you are. So there was one that was in a area called southwest Nova Scotia, where, if you were in the harbor, there in Briar Island, is where it was. You could see it right there, like it was very, very close, whereas those being deployed further out. So it really just depends on the location, but also potential impacts to other users. You know. Fisheries, all those kinds of things are considered when they're they're just determining location.
 
Trevor Freeman  15:04
Got you. And one last question, I apologize, I'm totally going off script here, but you've got me all excited about this, and lots of questions. How is this connected back to land? So you must be running cables, you're generating electricity, you're bringing that back to land, and there's some sort of transformation or storage. It's connected to the provincial grid. Like, what's the connection back to the grid look like?
 
Elisa Obermann  15:28
Exactly, yeah. So you're exactly right. There will be subsea cables that these devices will be connected to. They'll run to shore. Typically, they'll be connected to a substation, which then would be, you know, transmitting that energy electricity, I should say, to a distribution system or the transmission system. So as an example, force has pretty impressive subsea cables that have already been laid about 64 megawatts capacity with those and they built a substation at that site that then connects to the transmission system.
 
Trevor Freeman  15:59
Cool, very cool, awesome. Thank you for that. Thanks for entertaining my sort of nerdy curiosity there. So tell us about the benefits. Why is this something that the energy sector should be looking at? What are the benefits of this type of generation?
 
Elisa Obermann  16:14
Good question, and we get asked a lot. I will say, you know, why are we looking at Marine Renewables when we have solar and onshore wind and hydro that are proven and come at a lower cost, but we know we're going to need more electricity, and so the way we look at we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. We need energy diversity. But also marine renewables, such as Tidal and waves, they have some attributes that other renewables don't, so they can be very complementary to other renewable energy, and actually help to bring on other sources of renewables because of that, you know the synergies that they have. So as an example, and you mentioned it at the beginning, tidal is predictable, so we know when the tides are going to come in and out. We can schedule that. I mean, for energy system planning, we would know even 100 years from now, when exactly is that tide coming out? When is it going to be at peak? And so that's one that is very helpful in terms of reliability, predictability, all those things with waves also, I will say, I mean, they're very similar in some ways, because they are created by wind. So it's kind of the same concept, if you think of bringing it onto the grid, but there is an ability to forecast them further out. And one of the interesting things with wave energy, British Columbia had done some work, and I will say, I think it was the University of Victoria A while ago, just looking at the timing of them and when they're the most strong and powerful and consistent. And they found that they were strongest during peak times, like when BC would really need more power, so in the winter, during stormier times, that kind of thing. So those resources can be a very good match with other resources that maybe, you know, sometimes they they're not generating as much power at a given time.
 
Trevor Freeman  17:56
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of gets into to where I wanted to go next is, how does this work alongside wind and solar and sort of traditional hydro? You kind of answered that a little bit. We know that we need to grow our greater our energy demand is going to grow. You know, here in Ontario, we're looking at a 75% increase. Across Canada, we're looking at sort of two to three times the growth, and especially clean energy. What sort of percentage or how much of a foothold Do you think marine renewable energy has the capability of meeting of that?
 
Elisa Obermann  18:30
Yeah, that's a great question. So I will tell you now, I don't have the numbers for that, but I will this January, February. We're actually working on a sector vision, looking exactly at that, like the capacity scenarios, what could be feasible, but really trying to take realistic view of you know, this is how much electricity wave, tidal and river and offshore wind could contribute. But what I will say is that when it comes to Tidal, for example, there has been some resource assessments done in the past. Canada has 40,000 megawatts of potential tidal energy, and that's looking at, you know, the best locations. So it's technical potential, but it's, it's also looking at just feasibility in terms of locations, and what might be, you know, close to grids, that kind of thing. Wave energy is between, I think, 10,000 to 16,000 megawatts, looking at both Pacific and Atlantic coasts and with river current still in early phases of doing some of this work. But Natural Resources Canada can met energy, and also the National Research Council did a pretty extensive resource assessment, and it was around 340 gigawatts of river current, I will say, I mean, that's a lot, right? So there's some factors there that are still, you know, they're working on, trying to understand, so ice, for example, because where rivers, you know, some of the strongest river resources are in areas that are in northern Canada, maybe not feasible. So there's still some more work there to determine what's actually feasible for these technologies.
 
Trevor Freeman  19:59
Are there this kind of just jogged a question for me. Are there other parts of the world where this technology is, let's say, more mature and greater use, or is Canada kind of leading the fray here, like, where are we compared to other parts of the world?
 
Elisa Obermann  20:15
So I would say Canada has been pretty well known as a global leader in marine renewable energy, and we started this in kind of the early 2000s starting to look at the resources and the technologies and how we could lead. But this was alongside some other countries that have been also doing that work. So the United Kingdom, Scotland, in particular, France and a number of other European countries. The United States has also put quite a bit of investment in R and D technologies, but the UK probably is the furthest along. And one of the reasons for that, and this is different than what we've done in Canada, is they have targeted funding and programs to really support the sector where I find in Canada, there's been, you know, a lot of great supports by both provincial and federal governments, but most of the time we're competing like, there's not a, you know, a specific program for just marine renewable technology. So I think that's had a bit of an impact even on interacting investment here.
 
Trevor Freeman  21:13
Gotcha, yeah. So you're trying to fit your projects into a bigger project funding envelope that could cover a bunch of different sort of energy related projects, and you're having to say, Yeah, look, ours fits in here too. Is that fair to say?
 
Elisa Obermann  21:24
Yeah, exactly, exactly. .
 
Trevor Freeman  21:27
Cool. Okay, I want to shift a little bit here. We often talk on the show about the sort of relationship between energy and society and communities. So what are some community benefits from marine renewable projects. Is this something that sort of has community ownership over it? Does the community get involved in these projects? Tell us a little bit about how that impacts kind of that local level?
 
Elisa Obermann  21:52
Yeah, I would say, from what we've seen so far, and this is just with, you know, very early demonstration projects, is that the local supply chain has benefited a lot. So there's been some studies showing that for both tidal and wave projects, you would be using probably about 60% local supply chain to build the project. And that's also just because the technology is massive, like you're not going to be shipping this. It's more cost effective to have most of the work done close to the site. And so as an example, again, Bay of Fundy projects that force to date, and the, you know, the research that force has been doing, and some of the R and D, I believe they've, they've used up to 500 local suppliers, or Canadian suppliers, so that's one of the biggest ones. But also just with local communities, there's been a number of things that we've also seen where they've been very engaged in some of these projects. I mean, obviously local businesses have but there are opportunities for local ownership. I think that the challenge right now is that there's still a lot of risk because the technologies aren't as mature as some others, and so some communities are more hesitant to buy into the projects. That said, there is a project in British Columbia, the Yuquot Wave Energy Project, where the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation there is partnering very closely with a wave energy developer to move ahead with a wave technology that can help power their community. So there's all those kinds of things that I think make it attractive to communities, allows them to have some self sufficiency. And in the case of some of these northern, remote and coastal and indigenous communities, there's also that whole, you know, it's potentially displacing diesel in their community. So that's one of the drivers for them, marine renewables. There's been some, you know, studies around this as well showing that it would actually be lower cost than the diesel fuel that they're using in those communities. So there's that benefit as well.
 
Trevor Freeman  23:42
Gotcha. Yeah, actually, I've got a question here that I wanted to ask you, and so I'll skip to that one about the impact on especially remote indigenous communities that are not connected to the grid. I've had, actually, a few conversations on this show about how, how we go about helping remote and indigenous communities decarbonize getting off of local diesel generation. Are there other projects you mentioned one? Are there other examples of collaboration here? Do you see this as being sort of a relevant tool for that challenge?
 
Elisa Obermann  24:12
Yeah. So there's another one that I would also mention that I think is a great example again, University of Victoria in British Columbia had been spearheading what they called, it's the blind channel demonstration center. So Initially it started as working to help a, you know, it was like a remote eco kind of lodge become, you know, fully environmentally friendly, using marine renewables for electricity rather than diesel. But since then, they've actually evolved into more of an initiative to test and demonstrate title technologies there, given that it's a remote location, but working very closely with indigenous partners. And so what I think is cool about that is that it's helping indigenous communities to get involved, but not really requiring them to take on. And know, the risk of financing a project, maintaining a project, but it's giving them the opportunity to get the skills and expertise they would need to eventually, you know, bring Tidal or wave energy into their communities at a, you know, at a later date, when they feel more comfortable with the technology and also learn about how that technology impacts the environment and vice versa. Because I have found with communities like that's one of the things that they're most concerned about, is how, you know, how is this technology going to interact with fish or other marine life or the habitat? And so those kinds of smaller demonstrations really help, especially when they're, you know, hands on, and allow community members to be part of the demonstration.
 
Trevor Freeman  25:40
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're doing my job for me here, Elisa, you're setting up all my questions perfectly. How does it impact, sort of local marine wildlife? What's the what ecological impact of these we're talking about, fairly complex machinery located in a marine environment. Is there an impact? Has that been studied? Is it comparable it's a sort of a traditional hydro electric dam. What is, what is the impact there?
 
Elisa Obermann  26:05
So there's been a lot of work in this area, and depending on the location of the project, and that's kind of the caveat I give with us, it can be easier to understand what the impact is. So as an example, in Scotland, I mentioned there's, they've done a lot of work with marine renewables. There's a test center there called the European Marine Energy Center, EMAC, and they have very high flow tidal sites, similar to what we have in Canada. And they're able to use cameras and other equipment to really see exactly what's happening at the site. And so a number of researchers, you know, over the last couple of decades, have been doing environmental monitoring, collecting data, and what we've seen to date is, for the most part, fish and marine life avoid these devices. There's also been research done on electromagnetic fields sound, but I think the biggest concern that people still have is collision with the devices, and what could happen there. Now, coming to Canada, we're in a bit of a different situation. So at the forest site in the Bay of Fundy, you know, there has been quite a bit of environmental monitoring and research done, but the water is very different than what you'd see in Scotland. At this site EMAC, where in the Bay of Fundy, there's a lot of sediment. It's very it's a higher flow site even. So there's, you know, a lot of turbulence, and the environmental monitoring equipment there that you know that exists, it just can't gather all of that information at the site like you can't use a camera and see exactly where fish may be going. So we can't say 100% no, there has been no, you know, fish collisions. What has been happening is that force and government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think also indigenous partners and some of the local researchers in Nova Scotia. So Acadia University, for example, have been partnering, and just recently announced a project to be able to develop those environmental monitoring systems that can work in the Bay of Fundy. And so those will be something, you know, once that's solved, that knowledge and those systems and that technology can be used anywhere in the world to give us a better idea of exactly what are those environmental interactions. But I will say to date, the body of research does show that there hasn't been any significant interactions at this point, but I'm always hesitant to say there hasn't been any, because we can't say that yet.
 
Trevor Freeman  28:21
Yeah, sure, fair enough. It kind of raises another question in my mind about even just servicing the equipment, or the longevity of the equipment. I mean, in a in a solar field, if you've got a bad panel, you go and you change a panel. A wind turbine, at the very least, is above ground. Not that it's easy to change a blade on a turbine. But what is it like servicing and maintaining the equipment when it's out in a marine environment and underwater? How easy is it? Or is that a challenge?
 
Elisa Obermann  28:51
Yeah, it's a very good point. It's definitely more challenging than onshore technologies, because you also have, you know, weather windows. So with Tidal, for example, even though you know what stage of the tide is in, plays a huge role in when they can go out and maintain or and service the equipment. And so that's one of the reasons these technologies bring in higher cost for the project overall. Obviously. The other thing I would also mention is just that with both tidal and wave like just depending on what if it's a floating technology versus seabed mounted also makes a difference. So what we've seen is some of these technologies are now evolving to be floating, and again, one of the reasons for that is this whole operations and maintenance piece, because it's obviously a lot easier to bring a vessel out there, get onto the pontoon and be able to service it, versus a whole diving operation, or ROV to go underwater to service it.
 
Trevor Freeman  29:48
Gotcha, yeah, tow it back to the dock and work on it at the dock.
 
Elisa Obermann  29:51
Yeah, awesome, exactly.
 
Trevor Freeman  29:52
Okay, let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about the policy, and let's say regulatory. Worry landscape around this. I've got a question here on funding coming up too, but as our listeners will know, and as you certainly know, energy is a very regulated sector, lots of policy around it. What are some of the policy challenges? Or are there policy challenges when it comes to deploying marine renewables?
 
Elisa Obermann  30:20
Yeah, I would say, because they're emerging technology, that's actually been one of the biggest challenges. So when we look at legislation in Canada, I mean, it never a lot of it's very old, right? So it never envisioned that there'd be these clean technologies coming up in the market that would they would need to govern and regulate. We have had a lot of challenges with the Fisheries Act, again, just because of that, it never envisioned that it would be regulating an emerging technology. And so, I mean, luckily with that, we did a lot of work with federal and provincial governments, and we have found a path forward that had been an issue in terms of, like the regulatory barriers being created by the legislation. The other one, I would say, is just these projects are small at the moment, right? So we're talking kilowatts, maybe a couple megawatts. And what we found is the, you know, just the regulatory efficiency is not necessarily there. So applying regulation will look at it just as the same scale as any type of project, you know, could be a very large project. So I think what you know, we would ask is that regulators consider the scale of the project and the regulatory processes and requirements should balance that scale of the project, you know, with what the requirements are.
 
Trevor Freeman  31:34
Yeah. Do you see a world where I'm gonna assume the answer is yes to this, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do you see a world where this is just another option that utilities and energy policy makers have in their toolbox as a way to procure clean energy, that this just becomes one of an item on the menu with solar and wind, et cetera? Are we gonna get to that point? Do you see that happening in the sort of near, medium term future.
 
Elisa Obermann  32:01
I think we can get to that point. But what it's going to require is that there are more deployments, more demonstrations, and regulators will really need to look at those early projects of exactly that demonstrations, and not treat them as commercial projects. And the reason I say this is because to get costs down so that they can be looked at in comparison to onshore and solar, we need to see a lot more deployment like when you think of a cost curve for any technology, you have to get to that scale and volume before the costs start coming down. It's some time before we get to that point, but it's absolutely possible. It just requires the right supports.
 
Trevor Freeman  32:38
Got you. On the funding side. We talked about this a little bit earlier, about how you're kind of using existing funding programs. There aren't necessarily dedicated programs for this kind of technology or these projects. Are there other funding sources, like, are you attracting investors into this? Is there, you know, more public money going into this? What's the funding structure around some of these projects?
 
Elisa Obermann  33:02
Yeah, so,  I think to date, a lot of developers have and when I say developers, I mean the technology and project developers. But with marine renewables, sometimes it ends up being one in the same, because technology developers end up being the ones developing their projects. I think a lot of them are looking for two things at this time, so something to cover capital costs. So grants, whatever it might be, and there has, there have been a number of funding programs that the federal government has applied that have been quite useful for that, and then they usually look for something on the back end of the project once it's built. So what I mean by that is feed in tariff, something to help with their return on investment. And that seems to be kind of the right recipe for investment certainty at the moment, the other thing that I think Canada's recently done that's very helpful for this sector are the investment tax credits. And so our hope is actually that those get extended, because right now, where the sector is, and this also comes into play for offshore wind, is that they end, you know, in that 2033 timeline, 2034 I can't remember, whereas a lot of these projects wouldn't be online at that point. And so we're looking for a bit of a longer runway there. And I think tax credits are a very good tool that can help, you know, with attracting investment for these projects.
 
Trevor Freeman  34:16
So looking ahead, I mean, you've kind of touched on this in a few different spots, but to sum it up, what's next on the horizon for this technology and these projects? Are we expecting kind of innovation on the technological side, or is the focus still on the sort of funding and regulatory side right now? What can we expect for those of us who are going to maybe keep an eye on this moving forward?
 
Elisa Obermann  34:40
Yeah, it's a bit of both, I will say. So I mentioned that the tidal sector was having some challenges with the Fisheries Act a number of years ago, and that really kind of created a lull in development, but also in investment attraction. As a result of that, federal and provincial governments established a Tidal Task Force to. Look at the exact issues around you know, where the barriers are with the Fisheries Act, and then the outcome of that has been a new path under the Fisheries Act to support projects. And so there are developers that will be going through that new or revised, staged approach, is what they've been calling it. Time will tell, obviously, if that process works, but from what we've heard from developers, it does give them more certainty, because it essentially covers the entire project, rather than going through a device by device by device approach. And so that's on the regulatory side. I think if that goes well, it will give a lot of confidence to private sector and developers that this can move ahead, but it will also ensure that regulators know that they have an approach that is working, but still having those safeguards to ensure that you know they're protecting the environment and safety of communities and others on the technology side. So it's kind of like they go together hand in hand. So I mean, once we get through that process, I think there'll be more deployments, and we'll see the ability to test more technologies improve them. But to date, and where we are with especially with tidal energy, think the technologies are in, you know, they're in further generation. So we're not first generation technology anymore, and they've come a long way, and some of that's been through deployments and demonstration in other countries, Scotland, for example. So what I would envision happening is seeing some of those technologies tested in Canada, and then being able to, you know, deploy more than one and then, you know, multi device development.
 
Trevor Freeman  36:31
Great. One fine, maybe final question, although I keep thinking of things as we talk here, but you know, obviously this is very focused on coastal regions. You've mentioned, BC and sort of Nova Scotia where you're based. Do you envision, especially on the river side of things? Do you envision this as a technology that can be deployed kind of even in the interior provinces? Like, are we going to see river marine renewables in Saskatchewan, for example, or Ontario, where I'm based? Like, are you having those conversations? Or are we like, we're not quite ready for that yet, because we're still working on the technology piece.
 
Elisa Obermann  37:03
Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's part I actually have missed in some of this. So there have been river current technologies deployed in Manitoba already. So the University of Manitoba has the Canadian hydro kinetic turbine Test Center. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but they have been working with a number of river current developers. They've had several successful demonstrations. And there are also some companies that are that have been members of ours, that have deployed in other areas of Canada as well. In the past, even in Quebec, there's been some deployments. And so I think when it comes to river, you know, one of the challenges is there's, well, it's not a challenge. There's a huge opportunity there. It's just not very well known. And there are things like the ice, I think people are concerned about it being potentially closer to shore, just like the navigational issues, things like that, fish passage is different than what you'd see in tidal so there hasn't been as much of a focus on that. So it's earlier stage in terms of kind of that some of those environmental and social questions, but the technology is, you know, very close to where you'd see title at this point.
 
Trevor Freeman  38:12
Got you very cool we have so as our listeners know, I work for Hydro Ottawa, and Hydro Ottawa, parent company, owns the run-of-the-river generation dam here, right in the center of Ottawa, Chaudière Falls, and it's really fascinating. Now, it's not the same technology, of course. It's a it's a run of the river gravity fed dam, but the complexity around so the North American eel is an endangered species that's particularly impacted by dams and the technologies that we've had to put in place for that. It's really fascinating. Just kind of, I'm rambling a bit here, but all the different pieces that come together to make what should be a fairly straightforward thing, like use water to spin turbine, it's so much more complex than that. So I can appreciate that as you branch out into new areas, new technologies or new deployments of that, all those new complexities have to be figured out and worked on. But glad to hear that that's in the future, that that's on the horizon, because I think this is great, and it'd be cool to see more of this.
 
Elisa Obermann  39:08
Yeah, agreed. We're hoping we're getting there. It's taken time. I think things haven't gone as quickly as we had hoped. But you know, there's been a lot of learnings, lessons learned that have fed into where we are now, and I think just with what we're seeing, you know, with with government support, but also communities getting more excited about it, we'll see some real progress in the coming years.
 
Trevor Freeman  39:30
Okay, Elisa, we always wrap up our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. Some people love them, some people feel like they're on the hot seat, but I'm going to dive in anyway and fire these at you. So what is a book that you've read recently that you think everyone should read?
 
Elisa Obermann  39:45
Haven't read this one recently, but it kind of changed my thinking on everything. And I loved it, "Sapiens", I thought was great just with kind of the, you know, the history of humankind, and just made me rethink a lot of the things that. In terms of how society is structured and why we do the things that we do. Thought it was great, and if people haven't read it, I would highly recommend,
 
Trevor Freeman  40:06
Yes, very cool. That's a great book, and you're not the first one to mention that on the show. That's awesome. So same question. But for a movie or a show.
 
Elisa Obermann  40:14
There's probably a few that I would recommend, but really, I think the one that struck me the most recently, and I haven't watched a lot of movies recently, so I'll also say that, but just in the past couple years, was "Barbie". I loved it. It actually surprised me that, like, I had this totally different impression of what it was going to be, and just the kind of, you know, the key messages and things that it brought out, I thought were great. Like it was, it was very well done.
 
Trevor Freeman  40:38
Yeah, absolutely. It was one of those kind of cultural things that which seemed like it was going to be just another movie, and then there was some buzz behind it. And it got to the point where we, like, we did a family outing to go and, like, watch that movie with our kids, who were kind of at about the age where they can start thinking about some of these things. So it was pretty fun.
 
Elisa Obermann  40:56
Yeah, we did the same. We all wore pink. We really got on the bandwagon. I but it's great because as adults, you know, there were some really important things in it, but then also kids could relate, like it was a fun movie for them. So, yeah, it was good.
 
Trevor Freeman  41:09
Yeah, absolutely. My kids spent a long time, and still it'll come up singing the I'm Just Ken song that happens around our house often that song comes up, which, you know, wears on you after a while. Okay, so it sounds like you travel a little bit. So if someone offers you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
 
Elisa Obermann  41:28
There's lots of places I would like to go, but I think probably Greece is where I would choose to go. I mean, I've been to Europe quite a bit for work and just also, you know, for fun. But my daughter has been saying for a really long time that she wants to go to Greece. She's only 10, so I've also kind of wondered where she got this idea, but I've also always wanted to go. So I think that would be my, my first choice.
 
Trevor Freeman  41:51
Very cool. I my wife and I honeymooned in Greece. It's a long time ago, but we had had a great time. It's gorgeous.
 
Elisa Obermann  41:56
Oh, amazing.
 
Trevor Freeman  41:58
Who is someone that you admire?
 
Elisa Obermann  41:59
That would probably be one of the tougher ones of these questions. Well, I'll say so generally, when I think about this kind of question, it's like, what are the kind of characteristics or qualities of someone that I would admire? And so I often look at how other women are, you know, conducting themselves, working in business world or in politics or whatnot. And I think what I admire most in some of those women is just the fact that they lift other women up. They're not afraid to be who they are and take a stand on things they really believe in. I think something I also really admire are women that are willing to take risks to build their business, and also in times of you know, where there's challenges or conflicts taking the high road. And so with all that said, you know, when I think about this, and I don't know if this sounds too cliche, but I think Michelle Obama's great, like when she said, 'When they go low, you go high', I just thought that was such an important message. And I actually share that with my daughter all the time when she's having trouble in school. I'm like, think of it this way. So she is a woman that I really admire. I think she's just done some wonderful things for women and just for people in general.
 
Trevor Freeman  43:08
Yeah, absolutely. And again, you're not the first one to mention that on the show, and I don't think that's because it's cliche. I think it's because you're right, absolutely fascinating person and leader, and just the strength of character is very evident, for sure. So, yeah, great answer. So final question, what's something about the energy sector that you're particularly excited about?
 
Elisa Obermann  43:29
Well, I would say, I mean, things are moving quite quickly, but also not never quick enough, yeah, and, but I think we have a lot to be excited about. So when I think about when I started my career in the energy sector, we were literally just starting to talk about renewable energy like it was a new thing, and things have evolved quite a bit since then, obviously, but in Atlantic Canada, where I'm based, so I'm in Nova Scotia, one of the things we've seen just in the past number of years has been An incredible evolution to a lot of projects being indigenous owned, indigenous LED. And I just think that's amazing so, you know, and I think that's going to continue. And it just shows, you know, that these communities are taking a lead. They're interested in ensuring that we're using clean energy, and it's also empowering them to, you know, have that ownership be able to provide investment to these projects, but it's been a big change. And so what I'm looking forward to, I guess, is what I'm saying here is that that continues, and we see more indigenous led projects, more indigenous participation in those projects, whether it be ownership, but also we've been actually working with a lot of indigenous businesses and suppliers that can get involved. And I think that will really change the energy sector. Actually, it's a lot different model from what we thought about, you know, few decades ago.
 
Trevor Freeman  44:49
Yeah, absolutely, I think. And again, it comes up so often on the show, the idea that there's the technological side of energy, but the societal side, and that interaction with the actual. Well stakeholders in local communities and indigenous communities. And you know, the people who are most impacted by this from a usage of energy perspective, but also a production and generation perspective. And of course, the in between, which is the transmission and distribution side of things, that's where the really interesting stories happen, and the opportunities for better collaboration and improving how we do things certainly happen. So I'm totally on the same page as you.
 
Elisa Obermann  45:25
Yeah, I think at the end, I always think of this like everything in the end is about people so and there's that factor that we we sometimes lose in all of this, but in the end, it comes down to the people who are involved or impacted.
 
Trevor Freeman  45:38
Absolutely. Elisa, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to learn more about this sector, which doesn't have enough attention on it. So happy to kind of have you explain to us and talk us through some of the exciting things that are happening. Really appreciate it.
 
Elisa Obermann  45:52
Yeah, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time. And like you said, a lot of people don't know about the sector, so I really appreciate the you know, the time spent with you to chat a little more about it. Thank you
 
Trevor Freeman  46:02
For sure. We'll check back in, maybe in a year or two, and see kind of how, how far things have come.
 
Elisa Obermann  46:07
Yeah, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that.
 
Trevor Freeman  46:09
Awesome. Thanks. Elisa, take care.
 
Elisa Obermann  46:11
Thank you.
 
Trevor Freeman  46:13
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].