The Holly Pivec Podcast

Was Alisa Childers right to warn people about Josh Howerton and Josh McPherson’s teachings on church leadership? By the time you finish listening to this episode, you’ll not only know whether Alisa’s warning was justified, but you’ll also learn 3 specific markers of dangerous, apostle-style church governance—even when pastors don't explicitly use the word "apostle."
📌 Episode OverviewIn this episode, we break down the online debate that erupted after Alisa Childers shared a clip from the Resurge podcast, hosted by Josh Howerton (Lakepointe Church) and Josh McPherson (Grace City Church / Stronger Man Nation).
While defenders accuse Alisa of slander, misrepresentation, and "barking up the wrong tree," a closer look at Howerton and McPherson's statements reveals a deeply concerning shift toward New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)-style top-down governance.
Drawing on over two decades of research into the NAR movement and co-authoring four books on the topic, I walk through the original podcast, address recent rebuttals, analyze Howerton's statements on "convening apostles," and show why Alisa’s warnings are fully warranted.
🔑 Key Takeaways & Discussion PointsThe 3 Markers of NAR Governance in the Church:
The Role of the Senior Pastor: How viewing the lead pastor as the uniquely "anointed" man at the top mirrors NAR apostolic authority.

The Demotion of Elder Boards: Moving away from biblical team oversight and shepherding toward military-style chain-of-command structures ("lieutenants" vs. "privates").

The "Wartime Church" Rationale: Using societal or spiritual culture wars to justify stripping checks and balances and demanding undivided authority.

CEO Model vs. NAR Governance: Why their statements go far beyond a standard corporate structure and tap into dangerous spiritual dynamics.

Evaluating the Rebuttals: Analyzing Howerton’s Instagram statements, his definition of "little-a" / "convening" apostles, and his recent podcasts.

Culture & Response: What the aggressive backlash, shaming, and hand-waving against Alisa Childers reveal about top-down authoritarian church structures.

💬 Join the Conversation
Have you encountered these top-down or "wartime" leadership dynamics in your own church background? Do you think elder boards should retain a shepherding and accountability role?

Can Christians in a spiritually mismatched marriage preserve their union while keeping a clear conscience before God?

In this episode, Holly explores the tension that occurs in marriages when one spouse is part of the New Apostolic Reformation and the other is not.

She unpacks what a "spiritual mismatch" is through 1 Corinthians 7, where Paul instructs believers who are married to an unbeliever, and she shows how his advice can also apply to those believers who are married to someone in NAR. She also examines conscience and authority through Acts 5:29 and the examples of Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and Daniel, concluding that obedience to God comes before human authority, and that marriage vows never require participating in false teaching.

In this episode, you'll learn:

* What a spiritual mismatch is and its implications in a marriage.
* What to do if you are in a mismatched marriage, based on 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 and Acts 5:29.
* How Acts 5:29 warns against joining others in disobedience to God.
* How to handle the tough issues arising from a spiritually mismatched marriage.
* The importance of keeping your conscience clean before God.

Have you or someone you love ever faced a spiritually mismatched marriage? Tell us about it in the comments.

Resources & Links:
Join Holly's Substack Book Club: https://hollypivec.substack.com
Read more about NAR tactics in Holly's co-authored book, Counterfeit Kingdom: https://a.co/d/08kKR5j9

#christianpodcasting #NAR #christianmarriage #falseteachers

Doctrinal soundness, quite simply, is not enough. A church can be biblically sound and still be led by unaccountable, unhealthy leadership.

In this episode, Holly breaks down three fundamental characteristics of healthy leadership, highlighting the importance of accountability, transparency, and character traits drawn from 1 Timothy 3:1–7 and Titus 1:5–9. These passages show us how to discern whether a church's leadership is actually healthy beyond biblical soundness.

In this episode, you'll learn:

- Why "doctrinally sound" doesn't necessarily mean "safe"
- The pervasive reality of "paper elders" who do not hold the senior pastor accountable
- What 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 actually require of elders
- Why governing bylaws are essential (and how they are often neglected)
- The authoritarianism test: Do your leaders truly welcome questions?

Resources & Links:
Join Holly's Substack Book Club: https://hollypivec.substack.com
Read more about NAR tactics in Holly's co-authored book, Counterfeit Kingdom: https://a.co/d/08kKR5j9

Have you ever experienced "paper elder" leadership: strong in theory, but impotent in practice? Tell us in the comments.

#christianpodcasting #NAR #healthytheology #apologetics #falseteachers

How do you know if a church is actually solid? In this episode, Holly breaks down what to look for: biblically sound teaching and healthy leadership, not perfection.

She walks through the warning signs of deviant doctrines like the "prosperity gospel" and NAR teachings, and shares a practical filter for reading a church's statement of faith. Does it show real reverence for Scripture? Are there red flags pointing to NAR influence?

For anyone struggling to find a biblically sound community, Holly offers practical advice. And for those already rooted in a good church, the call is to dig in and serve, not just sit back

In this episode, you’ll learn:

* What Makes a Church Biblically Sound
* A Mature Believer’s Role
* Denominational Flexibility & the Importance of Fellowship
* Why You Should Evaluate Teachings & Statements of Faith

Resources & Links:

Join Holly’s Substack Book Club: hollypivec.substack.com

Read more about NAR tactics in Holly’s book, Counterfeit Kingdom: https://a.co/d/08kKR5j9

#NAR #KathrynKrick #Discernment #FalseTeachers #Apologetics

Kathryn Krick, the 35-year-old lead pastor of 5F Church in Los Angeles, has gone viral for her dramatic deliverance services, theatrical style, and followers laying gifts at her feet. But while critics label her a "cult leader," many are missing a much bigger threat. In this episode, Holly reveals the critical mistake people make when evaluating flashy figures like Krick: assuming the danger is limited to sensational performers. Behind Krick’s viral clips is a core doctrine standard across the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)—the "Fivefold Ministry." Holly breaks down how NAR teachings, apostolic authority, and coded language like "Mama" and "Papa" are being promoted by soft-spoken, seemingly balanced pastors in local churches nationwide.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

* Why Katherine Krick’s viral book-signing and 5F Church reflect standard NAR doctrine.
* What the "Fivefold Ministry" doctrine actually teaches—and how Ephesians 4:11 is taken out of context.
* The hidden meaning behind titles like "Mama," "Papa," and laying gifts at a leader's feet.
* Why "subtle" NAR churches can be even more dangerous than high-profile, theatrical leaders.

Resources & Links:

Join Holly’s Substack Book Club: hollypivec.substack.com

Read more about NAR tactics in Holly’s book, Counterfeit Kingdom: https://a.co/d/08kKR5j9

#NAR #KathrynKrick #Discernment #FalseTeachers #Apologetics