The Human Risk Podcast

When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?

Episode Summary
Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.

When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.

But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.

What you'll learn In this episode
In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:
Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concluded
The shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the Inquiry
Why disasters rarely have a single root cause
The hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"
Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn them
The importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulation
Why complexity requires different kinds of leadership
How AI might help organisations learn lessons in real time
Why hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"
AI-Generated.Timestamp Summary
00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters?
02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower
05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry 
06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings
10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act
12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand
13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives
17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation
20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity
24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons 
27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long?
33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point
37:00 – Communities of grief and change 
39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one
44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking 
50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard
53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems
55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned" 
59:00 – Final reflections

Links
Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer

Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change'

Gill's LinkedIn: 

Her previous show appearancesGill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part One
Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part Two
Topics discussedGrenfell Tower Inquiry – Final Report
The Grenfell Enquirer (articles and resources)
Arup's Building Safety Change Framework
People and ideas mentionedDave Snowden (Cognitive Edge)
Cynefin Framework overview
Background incidents referencedPiper Alpha disaster (Encyclopaedia Britannica)
Lakanal House fire (Wikipedia)
Deepwater Horizon oil spill (Encyclopaedia Britannica)

What does jazz singing have to do with LinkedIn? More than you might think.

This week's guest, Anna Rössler, has built a career helping senior leaders find their voice online while simultaneously developing her own as a singer-songwriter. Rather than separating her professional and creative identities, Anna has found a way to bring them together, and in doing so offers some valuable lessons about authenticity, confidence and human connection. 

We explore why so much online content feels performative, how AI is changing the way we communicate, and why the best personal brands aren't really about branding at all. Along the way we discuss experimentation, creativity, stage fright, networking, and the importance of building a life around the things that genuinely energise you.

Whether you're trying to communicate more effectively at work, build a presence online, or simply find more balance between your career and your passions, there's plenty to take away from this conversation.

Episode Summary
On this episode, we discuss:
Why authenticity is more than simply 'being yourself.'
How personal branding is really about building trust.
Why social media should be treated as a conversation, not a broadcast.
The hidden metrics that matter more than likes and impressions.
How to use AI without losing your own voice.
Why experimentation beats chasing algorithms.
What performing music teaches us about confidence and communication.
How side passions can make us better professionals.
Why designing your environment is often more important than motivation.
The value of creating a life that gives you energy instead of draining it.
Guest Profile
Anna Rössler is a marketing and LinkedIn specialist who helps organisations and senior leaders communicate more effectively through content and personal branding. Alongside her marketing career, she's an accomplished jazz and pop vocalist, songwriter and performer.

Her work sits at the intersection of communication, creativity and authenticity, helping people find a voice that genuinely sounds like them—whether they're posting on LinkedIn or performing on stage.

Follow Anna on LinkedIn and on her personal website.

What happens when two people who spend their careers thinking about human behaviour meet in a London pub and start complaining about conferences? Apparently, they decide to organise one.

Episode Summary
In this episode I'm joined by David Grosse, founder of behavioural risk advisory firm Behavor, to talk about The Unconvention, an event we're creating together that aims to rethink how conversations about risk, culture and human behaviour actually happen. But this isn't just an episode about an event.

David and I explore why organisations continue to treat behavioural risk as a niche topic, despite human decision-making sitting at the heart of almost every organisational failure. We discuss why so many conferences on culture and conduct feel formulaic, why measuring culture through board packs can miss the point entirely, and why stories often reveal far more than statistics ever can.

Along the way we touch on Silicon Valley Bank, Plato's Cave, behavioural science, organisational culture, productive discomfort, and why the best events might leave you with fewer certainties than when you arrived.

If you're curious about The Unconvention, or simply interested in why we think there has to be a better way to have these conversations, I hope you'll enjoy listening.

Links
David on LinkedIn 
David's company Behavor 
The Unconvention Website and ticketing site.
AI-Generated Timestamped summary
00:00 – Christian introduces the episode and explains how a conversation in a London pub led to the creation of The Unconvention.

02:20 – David shares his journey from chartered accountant and banker to behavioural risk specialist, and explains why human behaviour became the focus of his work.

05:30 – Why behavioural risk still isn't taken as seriously as other forms of risk, despite sitting behind so many organisational failures.

11:30 – Christian and David discuss what's wrong with many industry conferences, from scripted panels to sponsor-led agendas, and why they rarely change anyone's thinking.

18:00 – The conversation turns to culture, governance and why dashboards and board packs can never fully capture human behaviour.

24:30 – Stories, rather than statistics alone, often provide the richest insights into how organisations really work.

29:00 – The origins of The Unconvention and the principles behind creating an event that deliberately breaks with conference convention

35:30 – Why attendees are being invited to help shape the event, and how behavioural thinking has influenced everything from the format to the ticketing model.

42:00 – Christian and David discuss what they hope participants will take away: curiosity, productive discomfort and conversations that continue long after the event ends.

48:45 – Final details on The Unconvention, where to find David, and the unexpectedly simple story behind the name "Behavor".

Why is it so hard to stop people playing vides, music or phone calls out loud on public transport — and what does that tell us about changing human behaviour?

Show Summary
This episode of The Human Risk Podcast is a little different. It is a cross-cast from The Freewheeling Podcast, hosted by Thomas Ableman, in which I join Thomas to tackle a problem raised by the show's most important listener: his mum.

The issue? People using phones, videos, music and speaker calls out loud on trains and buses. What begins as a seemingly small transport etiquette problem quickly becomes a much bigger conversation about social norms, antisocial behaviour, customer experience, incentives, enforcement and the limits of signage. In our discussion, we explore why simply telling people to stop may not work, how reactance can make things worse, and why transport operators need to think more creatively about behaviour change.

Along the way, we consider quiet carriages, “electronic entertainment carriages”, cheap headphones, better-targeted messaging, staff intervention, social media campaigns and the wider question of whether public transport operators are responsible for the behaviour of the humans they carry.

The Freewheeling Podcast
The Freewheeling Podcast  is a show for transport change-makers. It explores how we can move forwards faster, bringing listeners fresh voices, new ideas and unconventional thinking.
While it has a strong focus on transport and mobility, the show also ranges into entrepreneurship, politics, public policy, cities and how systems can be designed to work better for the people who use them.

Links
The Freewheeling Podcast - https://www.freewheeling.info/the-freewheeling-podcast
Thomas on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasableman/

What if the best way to improve cybersecurity — or any other form of human risk — wasn't another policy, training course, or piece of technology, but a board game?  That's the kind of question my guest, Jill Wick, loves asking.

Episode Summary 
Jill is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, podcaster, and author. Her work sits at the intersection of psychology, marketing, behavioural science, and cybersecurity, and she is passionate about helping organisations understand that security is fundamentally a human challenge, not simply a technical one. 

Drawing on her experience in fraud prevention and her academic background in business psychology, Jill explains why traditional approaches to awareness often fail, why experimentation matters, and how a simple Snakes and Ladders-inspired game can create meaningful conversations about risk and decision-making.

The discussion ranges far beyond cybersecurity. We explore creativity, curiosity, communication, organisational culture, social media, learning, and the challenge of measuring success when the outcome you're seeking is something that doesn't happen.

Key Topics
In this episode, we discuss:
Why cybersecurity is ultimately a human problem rather than a technology problem
The psychology behind phishing, scams, and social engineering
Why more policies and more training often fail to change behaviour
How unclear policies can create confusion instead of compliance
The role of curiosity, creativity, and experimentation in risk management
How games can create psychologically safe environments for learning
The importance of conversation and peer learning in awareness programmes
What compliance, safety, conduct, and operational risk professionals can learn from cybersecurity awareness
Why awareness professionals should think more like marketers
The value of experimentation, iteration, and A/B testing
How social media can help build communities around important ideas
Why measuring engagement may be just as important as measuring failures
Guest Biography
Jill Wick is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, author, and podcast host who specialises in the human side of cybersecurity. Drawing on a background in fraud prevention and behavioural science, she helps organisations build stronger security cultures through creative, engaging approaches that go beyond traditional training and compliance. Known for her innovative use of games, psychology, and marketing techniques, Jill is a passionate advocate for making cybersecurity awareness more human, effective, and enjoyable

Links
Jill's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-wick/
Jill's website - https://www.jillwick.com/
Cyber & Psych, Jill's podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/5uteiqHvCTGCVtCsKCzGJ6?si=322ef51fd6a3423c&nd=1&dlsi=c6d8309550784df9
Security-Awareness-Tools, Jill's book - https://www.isbn.de/buch/9783658511111/security-awareness-tools

AI-Generated Timestamped Outline
00:00 – Introduction
02:15 – Jill's background: From fraud prevention and business psychology to cybersecurity awareness.
05:30 – Understanding why people fall for scams, phishing attacks, and social engineering.
06:00 – Why cybersecurity is fundamentally a human problem, not just a technical one.
08:00 – The limitations of rules, policies, and traditional awareness training.
12:00 – The origin of Jill's cybersecurity board game and why simplicity matters.
14:00 – How games create psychologically safe conversations and improve learning.
19:30 – The game as a conversation tool: building culture, peer learning, and engagement.
22:00 – Creativity, curiosity, and the courage to experiment with new approaches.
26:00 – What cybersecurity awareness can learn from marketing, advertising, and A/B testing.
35:30 – Why awareness and technology must work together rather than compete.
41:30 – New projects: workshops, events, games, and Jill's forthcoming book Security Awareness Tools.
44:00 – Lessons for compliance and risk professionals: attention is a limited resource.
51:00 – Measuring success: engagement, participation, reporting, and positive signals.