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Carey Nieuwhof Interview - Podcast Notes
Overview
Conversation with Carey Nieuwhof about the shift in modern church worship from entertainment-focused to encounter-focused experiences, live streaming strategy, and church growth in the digital age.
Key Themes
1. The Shift: Entertainment vs. Encounter
The Problem with Modern Church Production
Social media created a "copycat phase" where churches could suddenly see what megachurches were doing
Churches adopted same equipment, same songs, same production values
What was unique became ubiquitous - "we all became copies of each other"
Gen Z is "the most marketed to generation in human history" and numb to production
Quote: "Gen Z is the most marketed to generation in human history. And we're all kind of numb to the production. I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope."
What People Actually Want
Something real and tangible
An experience of God, not just information about God
Presence, not just presentation
Transformation over information
The Internet's Limitation
Really good at delivering information (especially with AI)
Cannot facilitate an encounter
"There's something that happens in the room that doesn't happen online"
2. What "Encounter Over Entertainment" Looks Like
The Tonal Shift
Worship leaders being more sensitive to what's happening in the room, not just rehearsed transitions
Preachers leaving space, not just hitting time marks
Paying attention to what God might be doing (people crying, leaning in, visible reactions)
Creating space to breathe
Silence and Space
"When I started in ministry, my goal was to get rid of as much silence in church as I could"
Now: "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church"
Don't have to fill every moment with words
Can be silent or "noodle" on instruments while creating space
Quote: "People's lives are so noisy and so crowded. I mean, we don't even sleep without white noise machines or anything like that. So where else are you going to get silence?"
Evoke vs. Manipulate
Can't plan a revival - it happens or it doesn't
Job is to "set the table" and make space for the Holy Spirit
Example: Great movies evoke genuine tears by accessing real emotions
Cheap manipulation feels different
Quote: "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke, to say, 'I'm going to set the table. I can't control the Holy Spirit.'"
3. The Liturgy Issue
Modern Church is "Liturgically Malnourished"
Liturgy = order of service (not an outdated term)
Modern church handles joy and praise well
Missing: contemplation, confession, lamentation, reflection
Lost practices: prayers of confession, prayers of the people
Carey's Confession
Presbyterian background included prayers of approach and confession
As church became attractional, prayer became "just an opportunity to clear the set for the sermon"
Regrets thin prayers: "God, it's so good to be here today. We thank you so much. Amen."
Quote: "It's like confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. We don't do that anymore. What if we did that?"
Not Either/Or, But Both/And
Keep good lighting, sound, production, and musicians who can play
Add breathing room, texture, color, tone, mood
Use liturgical calendar and historic practices adapted to modern context
Don't approach Sunday as "slots to fill"
Creative Freedom
52 Sundays = 52 blank canvases
Already do this well at Easter and Christmas
Can be more creative without confusing people
Example: Good Friday Service
Ended in darkness with no announcement
Faded to black and stayed there
People sat in uncomfortable silence, then slowly left
"I wanted them to feel that discomfort... if you can even get a small sampling of that"
Easter Sunday picked up in darkness, then sunrise/resurrection
4. Live Streaming Strategy
Who Should Live Stream?
Not every church needs to live stream everything
Need good musicians to sound great online (around 400-500 attendance to have talent base)
Need separate mix for online vs. in-house
Poor production = "school play" - only interesting to those directly involved
Quote: "A lot of churches, and these are well-meaning, beautiful Christian people. If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play."
Alternatives
Stream just the message
On-demand after, mixed in post-production
Audio only if video isn't good
Consider what strangers stumbling on feed would think
The Discovery Argument
Pre-COVID minority of churches streamed
Now "everybody you want to reach is online"
"All of non-Christian America, all the nuns, all the duns, all the atheists, all the agnostics, they're on the internet"
Can't remember last time truly unchurched person hadn't watched online for weeks/months before visiting
The New Foyer
Online is now the foyer, not the physical lobby
People investigate online before visiting
By the time they show up, they're ready to go "further, faster"
"They've already done their investigating. They've already asked ChatGPT all the questions"
5. Practical Service Design
Handling Growth Pressure
Multiple services create pressure to program everything tightly
Solution: Trim 5 minutes from sermon
Do 60-minute service with breathing room between
Create more lobby/connection space
Leverage outdoor space (if climate allows)
Worship Set Strategy
Don't need extended mix of everything
Maybe two songs and a tag instead of three full songs
"Sit in the tag for a while"
Find the high-impact moments (example: bridge of "How Great Is Our God")
Get to what matters, like talent shows do 90-second versions
Quote: "You don't have to do the extended mix of everything, the seven minute version, do the tag. That would be great. Space is something that you can do in three minutes if you know how to do it well."
Service Flow Examples
Don't make people stand and greet (where else does that happen?)
Have emotionally intelligent people on doors, not just available people
Greet people the way THEY want to be greeted
Consider kids moments, announcements, communion as natural transitions
Call to commitment/involvement comes sooner now than 10 years ago
6. Online Presence Best Practices
Website Design
Design for new people first
Show service times and location prominently (mobile friendly)
Staff page is #3 most viewed - people want to see "are there people like me?"
Use accurate photos (don't show 27-year-olds if congregation is 70+)
Show actual diversity if you have it
Quote (Seth Godin): "Culture is people like us do things like this. So what people are looking for, are there people like us?"
Content Strategy
Lead with best sermons, not just latest
Most popular videos should be easy to find
People don't care if it's from 2 years ago (still watching The Office)
Have robust FAQ section for unchurched questions
Position yourself for lost people, not just members
7. The Current Moment
The Harvest is Ripe
People are seeking more than maybe in past decade or two
Culture is saturated with production - not the competitive edge anymore
Mental health crisis caused by social media
People desperate for something real
What to Do
Pray for it (spiritual activity)
Make newcomer journey easy
Take them somewhere when they show up
Go deeper faster - they're ready
Quote: "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us. They found a really cool song, they found a really great message, but they didn't actually find God in the midst of it."
Give Them Meat
Reference to Tara-Lee Cobble and The Bible Recap
Provide historical context (helps Christians AND non-Christians)
Don't be afraid to go deep on sin, gospel, redemption
Write/speak in accessible "street Greek" like the New Testament
Example Opening: "Hey, we're going back 3000 years. And there was a guy named David who was King of Israel. He was trying to keep the kingdom united because there was a north and a south. You can relate to that. These are divided times..."
Quote (Tim Keller): "It's worse than you can possibly imagine and better than you can possibly dream."
8. Leadership Advice
For Young Church Staff (25-40)
Navigating Frustration with Leadership
Write down actual issues you're facing (budget, staffing, expertise)
Present respectfully, thoughtfully, submissively
Good leaders will either provide resources or adjust priorities
Identifying Toxic Culture
Unrealistic expectations
Unsympathetic to staff needs
Expects 60-hour weeks with no life
Toxic leader will get mad/defensive when approached
Options in Toxic Environment
Respectfully approach and share difficulties
Accept the glass ceiling and stay
Build healthy team within unhealthy body (temporary solution)
Leave - "unhealthy bodies drive out healthy cells"
Interview Questions for New Positions
Ask to talk to current staff (not the pastor)
Ask to talk to FORMER staff
Find out who left and why
Read Google reviews
Have meals/experiences together (reveals character under pressure)
Quote: "Ask around, ask if you have permission. Don't ask the pastor. Don't ask the pastor. Are you healthy? The toxic people, 'I'm so healthy.'"
9. Team Building & Growth
Hiring Philosophy
Only hire A players
C players: you know immediately (late, unmotivated, incomplete work) - should be gone
B players: good but not great - "it's too bad but we'll survive"
A players: if they quit you'd need 3 people to replace them
Quote (Netflix): "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package."
A Player Test If they knocked on the door saying "this is my last day," how do you react?
C player: "Thank goodness, now I don't have to fire them"
B player: "Too bad but we'll survive"
A player: "Grabbing the waste basket and throwing up"
Growth Wisdom
Don't settle on staff because you're panicking
Will eventually become bloated with no profit
Profit = "permission to do this again tomorrow" (Seth Godin)
Most businesses fail not from lack of vision but lack of cash
Use tools like Working Genius to find right fit
Don't just find A players - find A players with gifts your team needs
Cultural Values
Write them down and review regularly
Ritz-Carlton: 26 values, reviewed 2-3 daily in team meetings
Use to evaluate: "Where are we winning/losing with our values?"
Catch team members exemplifying values
Values help instill culture as org chart grows
10. Upcoming Projects
Carey's New Book
Topic: AI and the Future Church
Thesis: "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians"
Church's future direction is human connection
Expected publication: 2026
Latest Book
"At Your Best" - about time, energy, and priorities
Notable Statistics & Data Points
72% of teenagers have tried AI chatbots
31% prefer AI companionship to human companions
Pre-COVID: minority of churches streamed services
Can't recall single unchurched person who didn't watch online for weeks/months before visiting
Around 400-500 attendance: churches start having talent base for good production
80-95% of church growth in America is conversion growth (not transfer)
Top 3 website pages: Homepage, Messages, Staff/About
Production Quality Basics
Good Enough to Stream
Great singing (doesn't need to be phenomenal)
Decent lights
Pretty good mix
Can work with church of 150-200 with good coaching
Everything else can be helped with technology
Bare Minimum
Great guitarist + great vocalist = "off to the races"
Don't feel pressure to have full mediocre band
Add musicians as you find/afford great ones
Practical Takeaways
Create space in services - silence, breathing room, sensitivity to the room
Recover lost liturgical practices - confession, lamentation, contemplation
Go deeper faster - people are ready for meat, not just milk
Design for online discovery - unchurched people are investigating you
Lead with best content - not just latest content
Only hire A players - don't panic hire when growing
Build real human connection - counter to increasingly artificial world
Make newcomer journey easy - they're ready to engage quickly
Be creative with 52 Sundays - not just slots to fill
Focus on encounter over entertainment - production supports experience, doesn't replace it
Questions for Further Reflection
How can we create more space for confession in our services?
What would it look like to "evoke" rather than "manipulate" in worship?
Are we positioning our online presence for unchurched discovery?
Is our production supporting encounter or replacing it?
What emotions are people carrying into our services, and how do we acknowledge that?
Are we moving too fast for the Holy Spirit to work?
Memorable Quotes
"I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope."
"People aren't looking for more information. They're looking for presence, not just presentation."
"The internet is really good at information, especially with AI. You want to know anything, you can find out anything, but the internet can't really facilitate an encounter."
"It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke."
"Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church."
"If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play."
"Everybody you want to reach is online."
"Your foyer has moved online."
"People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us."
"As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians."
"Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package."
"Profit is permission to do this again tomorrow."

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Episode Title
The Surprising Connection Between Online Views and Church Growth
Episode Description
Matt and Jake dive into The Unstuck Group's Q3 2025 report analyzing 252 churches to uncover surprising connections between worship style, online streaming, and church growth. Discover why declining churches juggle multiple worship styles, how online views predict growth, and why the cost barrier for quality streaming has never been lower.
Key Takeaways
76% of surveyed churches now focus on modern/contemporary worship only
Churches with multiple worship styles are more likely to be declining
96% of churches now offer online services (up from ~20% pre-COVID)
Online views are a lead indicator for church growth
40% of online church viewers are first-time visitors
The broadcast section is typically the smallest part of AV budgets
Audio quality matters more than video quality for streaming
Guest/Host Info
Hosts: Jake Gosselin and Matt Woltjer from Churchfront
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction: The Unstuck Group Q3 2025 Report Overview 1:11 76% of Churches Now Offer Only Modern/Contemporary Worship 3:52 Declining Churches Juggle Multiple Worship Styles 6:07 Living in the Tension: Traditional vs. Contemporary 7:42 Excellence in Worship - Both Styles Can Work 10:12 Vision is Essential - Don't Lead What You Don't Believe In 12:02 Your Space Dictates Your Style Limitations 14:09 Contemporary Worship = More Online Engagement 15:51 96% of Churches Now Offer Online Services 17:01 The Cost of Broadcasting Has Decreased Dramatically 19:36 Online Streaming Doesn't Hurt In-Person Attendance 20:47 Online Views as a Lead Indicator for Growth 22:50 40% of Online Viewers are First-Time Visitors 23:07 Audio First - The Key to Quality Streaming
Resources Mentioned
The Unstuck Group Q3 2025 Report
ChurchTechToday
Gitnux
First Baptist Melbourne (traditional excellence example)
Elevation Church (contemporary excellence example)
Rock Harbor Church (historical building renovation example)
Discussion Questions for Church Leaders
Does your church currently offer multiple worship styles? What challenges has that created?
How can your church pursue unity while honoring different generational preferences?
If you're not currently streaming, what barriers are holding you back?
How can you improve your online presence as a "front door" for visitors?
Action Steps
Review your church's online metrics - are views increasing or decreasing?
Assess whether multiple worship styles are helping or hindering unity
Evaluate your streaming setup - is audio quality your top priority?
Consider how your building design supports or limits your worship style goals
Social Media Pull Quotes
"Churches trying to maintain multiple worship styles are much more likely to be declining. It's not about one style being better—it's about strategic leadership." - Jake & Matt
"96% of churches now stream online, and here's the kicker: online views are a lead indicator for growth. If your views are increasing, you're likely a growing church." - Jake & Matt
"People will watch bad video with good audio, but they won't watch bad audio with good video. Audio first, always." - Matt Woltjer
"Your online stream isn't competing with in-person attendance—it's your front door. 40% of online viewers are first-time visitors researching your church." - Jake Gosselin
"The worship wars are over. Now it's time to be one church with one vision, not two churches meeting in the same building." - Jake & Matt
Episode Tags
#ChurchGrowth #WorshipStyle #LiveStreaming #ChurchTechnology #TheUnstuckGroup #ContemporaryWorship #TraditionalWorship #ChurchAV #OnlineChurch #ChurchLeadership
Production Notes
Include link to The Unstuck Group report in description
Add affiliate disclosure if applicable
Consider creating supplementary graphics showing the key statistics
Potential follow-up: Interview with The Unstuck Group team about their methodology

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Apply to Join Churchfront Premium
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Join us at the Churchfront Conference
Follow Churchfront on Instagram or TikTok: @churchfront
Follow on Twitter: @realchurchfront
Gear we use to make videos at Churchfront
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Apply to Join Churchfront Premium
Apply to Join Churchfront Pro
Free Worship and Production Toolkit
Shop Our Online Courses
Join us at the Churchfront Conference
Follow Churchfront on Instagram or TikTok: @churchfront
Follow on Twitter: @realchurchfront
Gear we use to make videos at Churchfront
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