The Child Discipleship Podcast

Summary

In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler discuss the role of fun and entertainment in children’s ministry. They are careful to say that fun is good and necessary. Kids should laugh, enjoy church, and want to come back. But the episode asks whether children’s ministry has sometimes made fun the main measure of success rather than discipleship.

Matt traces part of this tendency to the church growth movement and attractional models of ministry. In that framework, churches often removed barriers so people would come, stay, and return. That influenced children’s ministry, where entertainment became a common way to attract families and keep kids engaged. The concern is not that fun is wrong, but that fun can become overemphasized when the deeper goal should be lasting faith in Jesus.

The episode contrasts entertainment with engagement. Entertainment puts something in front of children. Engagement invites children into discipleship. Mike gives practical examples, such as small group confession, helping kids learn how to talk about sin and forgiveness, and giving children opportunities to serve, greet, pass out supplies, run tech, or help younger kids. These practices move kids from being passive spectators to active participants.

The main takeaway is that children rise to the level of expectation placed before them. If churches expect little more than attendance and enjoyment, kids may learn that church is mainly about having fun. But if churches invite them into meaningful participation, service, confession, Scripture, and gospel-centered community, they begin to see church as a place where they are formed as disciples of Jesus.

Practical Next Steps

Audit your children’s ministry.

Ask how much of the weekly experience is built around entertainment and how much is built around engagement, formation, Scripture, prayer, service, and gospel response.

Change the parent pickup question.

Instead of only asking, “Did you have fun?” encourage parents to ask:

– “What did you learn about Jesus today?”

– “What is one thing you heard?”

– “What is one thing that stood out to you?”

– “How did you see someone serve today?”

Invite kids to serve.

Give children age-appropriate roles such as greeting, helping with supplies, welcoming new kids, reading Scripture, assisting with tech, or helping younger children.

Create space for real spiritual formation.

In small groups, help children learn how to talk about sin, forgiveness, prayer, and following Jesus in everyday life.

Aim for formation, not perfection.

Let kids participate even when it is messy. Jesus formed His disciples by inviting them into the work, not by keeping them on the sidelines.

The post “Are We (Only) Having Fun?” appeared first on Child Discipleship.

In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the difference between teaching children “Bible light” and helping them grow in true biblical literacy. They argue that many churches unintentionally teach Bible stories in ways that are accurate, but incomplete.

When Bible teaching focuses on virtues, morals, and good character without rooting them in the gospel, children can begin to see Christianity as a call to be better rather than a call to trust Jesus. Good character matters, but it is not the goal on its own. It is the fruit of a life transformed by Christ.

Using stories like Nehemiah, David and Goliath, and the feeding of the five thousand, Matt and Mike show how Bible lessons can drift into moralism when Jesus is no longer at the center. The better path is biblical literacy, Bible engagement, and helping children understand the Bible as one unified story.

That is why this episode emphasizes the four-word framework of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. These four words help children see that Scripture is not a collection of disconnected moral stories, but one grand story centered on Jesus.

Matt and Mike also share practical ways to build Bible engagement through Scripture songs, children’s Bibles, reading the Bible aloud, and gospel-rich conversations at home and at church.

This episode is a call to move beyond shallow moral lessons and help children see that every page of Scripture points to Jesus.

Show Notes

Better Gospel-Centered Questions

How does this story reveal our need for Jesus?

How does this story show that Jesus is the true hero?

How does this story fit within creation, fall, redemption, and restoration?

Practical Ways to Build Bible Engagement

Sing Scripture songs with kids

Read the Bible aloud at home and in church

Use children’s Bibles like The Jesus Storybook Bible

Teach from a physical Bible so children can see and value God’s Word

Share personally with children what God is teaching you through Scripture

Resources Mentioned

Forming Faith: Discipling the Next Generation in a Post-Christian Culture

The Story We Tell Our Children: Gospel Formation in a World of Counterfeit Imitation

Streetlights

Seeds Family Worship

Yancy

Doorpost Songs

The Rizers

The Jesus Storybook Bible

The post Moving Beyond “Bible Light” to Biblical Literacy appeared first on Child Discipleship.

In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler tackle a provocative idea: what if the church needs to move from a children’s ministry mindset to a child discipleship mindset? Matt explains that after years of Awana research, one of the clearest insights is that many churches are still building ministry around activities and methods rather than around the deeper objectives that actually form lasting faith. Programs like VBS, Sunday school, small groups, and midweek ministry are not the problem. The real question is what those methods are designed to produce.

Matt argues that “children’s ministry” often becomes shorthand for tactics, programming, and logistics, while “child discipleship” focuses on outcomes, theology, and philosophy. He uses the example of Awana Clubs and VBS to show that the same curriculum or ministry model can produce very different fruit depending on the underlying culture and objectives. In other words, the issue is not merely what a church does, but why and how it does it.

To illustrate this, Matt introduces the metaphor of the old map and the new map. He describes seeing a sixteenth-century map and imagining how grateful we would be for what those mapmakers accomplished with limited tools and knowledge. At the same time, no one would use that map for modern navigation. In the same way, churches should honor the ministries of the past while also asking whether some of the assumptions behind children’s ministry need to be updated in light of new research and clearer biblical-philosophical insight.

That leads to the heart of the episode: Awana’s child discipleship philosophy. Matt summarizes the findings this way: child discipleship is a biblical practice designed to form lasting faith by helping kids belong to God and His kingdom, believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, and become like Him and walk in His ways through the power of the Holy Spirit. These three dimensions, often called the 3Bs—belong, believe, become—are presented as the three primary factors that tend to form lasting faith when they are all present over time in the life of a child.

Mike helps unpack this by comparing the 3Bs to NASA’s moon mission. Just as NASA had to focus on a few critical objectives rather than many scattered priorities, churches also need clear disciple-making objectives. The conversation makes the case that belonging is highly relational, believing is deeply scriptural, and becoming is experiential and life-on-life. The goal is not just a busy children’s ministry, but a ministry that helps children root their identity and faith in Jesus.

The episode closes with a pastoral challenge. Children are always being formed by something—social media, peers, cultural narratives, or other communities—so the church must be equally intentional. Matt and Mike urge parents, pastors, and church leaders not to abandon ministry activities, but to align them around the larger work of disciple-making. Their conclusion is clear: the church should not settle for activity-driven ministry when it can build toward lasting faith through belonging, believing, and becoming.

Show Notes

Main themeMove from an activity-centered view of children’s ministry to an outcome-centered, disciple-making vision of child discipleship.

Key ideas from the episode

Awana’s research raised a crucial question: what if we changed our thinking from children’s ministry to child discipleship?

Programs like VBS, Sunday school, youth group, and volunteer systems are valuable methods, but they are not the end goal.

The same ministry model can produce different results depending on the culture and objectives underneath it.

The “old map/new map” metaphor challenges churches to evaluate whether inherited ministry assumptions are still sufficient.

Awana’s core child discipleship philosophy centers on three objectives: belong, believe, become.

Belonging is relational, believing is scriptural, and becoming is experiential.

Lasting faith is most likely to grow when all three are present over time in a child’s life.

Children are already being formed by culture, so the church must be intentional in its own formative work.

Memorable ideas

Children’s ministry is not wrong, but it can become too method-driven if it loses sight of outcomes.

The goal is not fewer ministry activities, but better ministry alignment.

“Belong, believe, become” gives churches a framework for evaluating every program and practice.

The post It Might Be Time to End Children’s Ministry appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast by Awana, hosts Matt Markins and Mike Handler dig into one of the most important — and often overlooked — realities in children’s ministry: the deadline of worldview formation. Drawing on research from the Barna Group, they unpack the striking finding that a person’s worldview is largely set by age 13, and explore what that means practically for parents, church leaders, and anyone invested in the spiritual formation of children.

Show Notes

Hosts: Matt Markins & Mike Handler — Awana

Topics Covered:

A university president’s candid confession: “By the time kids get to us, it’s too late. Investors need to think age 4, not age 18.”

Defining worldview — the six spheres of formation: nature of reality, knowledge and truth, human nature, ethics/values, meaning and destiny, and methodology/action

The mundane → miraculous → mysterious framework for understanding spiritual formation

Key Barna Group research: What you believe by age 13 is what you will die believing

Why the church tends to operate as if the deadline is age 18 — and why that’s too late

The critical formation window: preschool through age 8–13

Why the church nursery is not childcare — it’s active discipleship

How to cast this vision to a spouse or pastor who hasn’t seen it yet

Resources Mentioned:

The Story We Tell Our Children — Matt Markins & Mike Handler (Awana)

Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions — George Barna

Key Takeaways

The real deadline is 13, not 18. Research shows that by age 13, the vast majority of people have a firmly established worldview. Churches and parents who wait until high school to get serious about formation are working against the clock.

Formation is happening whether you’re intentional or not. The question was never if your child is being formed — it’s what or who is forming them. Culture, media, and peers are always at work.

The early years are the most powerful. The preschool-to-age-8 window is the most open, formative season for spiritual development. These are the years when the foundational “Lego bricks” of worldview are being laid.

Worldview is more caught than taught. Especially in early childhood, children absorb truth through relationships, environment, and repeated experience — not lectures. How you live in front of them matters as much as what you say.

The mundane is the ministry. Diaper changes, car rides, bedtime prayers, and daily routines are not interruptions to discipleship — they are discipleship. The Holy Spirit works through the ordinary.

Your church nursery is a discipleship room. Volunteers who hold, smile at, and whisper God’s love over infants are doing some of the most strategic kingdom work in the building.

Reverse engineer from the vision. Start with the question: Who do we want this child to become? Then work backwards to identify what needs to be happening now — at age 2, 4, 6, 8.

Cast the vision in the right language. When talking to a spouse, find out how they best receive information — story, data, conversation. When talking to a pastor, lead with research. The Barna stats are a powerful door-opener.

Children’s ministry is the most important work on the planet. As Matt and Mike wrote: “When you stoop so low to disciple a child in Jesus’ name, you cannot attain a higher virtue.”

The post The Discipleship Deadline Is Sooner Than We Think appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore what it means to raise children and disciple the next generation in today’s rapidly shifting cultural landscape — a world they liken to raising kids on Mars. Inspired by a lyric from Elton John’s Rocket Man, Matt shares the moment the metaphor crystallized for him: an environment that feels unsustainable, isolating, and disorienting — yet one our kids are breathing as normal air.

The hosts walk through a vocabulary quiz of modern cultural concepts (transhumanism, the metaverse, the splinternet, metamodernity) to illustrate just how foreign today’s world feels to parents and church leaders. They then introduce the Awana leadership framework — define reality, then give hope — as a foundation for responding wisely.

The core of the conversation centers on two responsibilities every parent and church leader carries: protect and prepare. Protection is the baseline, but preparation — rooted in deep relationship — is what equips kids to thrive as they grow in independence. The episode closes by challenging church leaders to resist underestimating the power of a single moment in a child’s life and to hold a long-term vision for every child in their care.

Next Steps

For Parents:

Identify the key spheres of influence shaping your child (friends, school, home, church, media/screens) and evaluate each one honestly.

Have a conversation with your spouse or co-parent about where you are on the protect vs. prepare spectrum — and whether you’re leaning too heavily on one side.

Ask yourself: When my child is 37, what do I most want for them? Let that vision shape decisions you make today.

Evaluate whether your relationship with your child is deepening over time, recognizing that relationship outlasts authority as kids grow older.

For Church & Kids Ministry Leaders:

Resist the temptation to disempower your own impact by over-emphasizing how little time you have with kids. Every moment matters.

Develop a long-term vision for the children in your ministry — not just what you want to teach them this Sunday, but who you want them to be at 17, 37, and 70.

Consider hosting a child discipleship conversation with your team around the “protect and prepare” framework.

Look into Awana’s Child Discipleship Forum — a resource for conversations at the crossroads of culture, church, and children.

Show Notes

Episode Theme

Inspired by the Elton John lyric: “Mars ain’t the kind of place to raise your kids / In fact it’s cold as hell / And there’s no one there to raise them if you did.” — Bernie Taupin, Rocket Man (1972)

Modernity Timeline (Quick Reference)

Modernity — Concerned with defining truth; the age of Enlightenment

Postmodernity — Questioned whether absolute truth exists

Metamodernity — Holds hope for truth and cynicism about it simultaneously; lives in irony

Pop culture analogy used in episode:

Christopher Reeve’s Superman = Modern (clear good vs. evil)

Zack Snyder’s Man of Steel = Postmodern (morally complex, kills the villain)

James Gunn’s Superman = Metamodern (whimsical, virtuous, tongue-in-cheek — saves a squirrel mid-battle)

Key Framework: Protect & Prepare

Protect = Table stakes; necessary but diminishes over time as kids grow

Prepare = Intentional, forward-looking; powered by deepening relationship

Authority decreases as children age; relationship can and should grow richer

Goal: raise kids who want to come back and talk to you — not because they have to, but because the relationship is real

Referenced Resources

The Anxious Generation — book on the influence of screens and social media on youth

The Social Dilemma — Netflix documentary on tech and youth mental health

Awana Child Discipleship Forum — conversations at the crossroads of culture, church, and children

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