Pursuit With Cliff - Cliff Gray

Evan Koster just got back from seven days of public land hunting in New Zealand — no helicopter, no lodge, no estate stags. He hunted tahr in a glacial valley and red stag in the Canterbury High Country with guide Jurgen, carrying everything on his back and doing 5,000 vertical feet of gain literally the day he got off the plane. This conversation is the honest version of New Zealand hunting.

We cover what the terrain actually looks like, why the tussock country and scrub edge are the game zone, how red stag compare to elk (less gregarious, more vocal, harder to call across open country), why Evan passed on stags he could have shot and ended up empty-handed on deer, and what New Zealand's hunting culture looks like when you get off the estate. We also get into the invasive species debate - tahr, red deer, and chamois are valued by hunters and locals but under real threat from eradication programs - and how New Zealand's model of wildlife conservation compares to ours. At the end, Evan and Cliff break down the hosted hunt partnership with Jurgen that LKS Outfitters is building - a public land backpack experience unlike anything being offered commercially right now.

In this episode:
5,000 vertical feet daily — what the terrain actually demands
Tahr country: navigating stream beds, impenetrable bush, and glacial basins
How red stag compare to elk — roar, rut, callability, and body size
Why a 12-point stag on public land is equivalent to a 340-inch bull in the Flat Tops
No seasons, no bag limits — and why hunters self-regulate anyway
The invasive species debate: eradication programs vs. a hunting culture fighting back
What Jurgen's New Zealand public land hunts actually look like
LKS Outfitters hosted hunts with Jurgen — what's coming and how to book

Guest: Evan Koster — Lead guide, LKS Outfitters / Flat Tops Wilderness Guides. Instagram: @lks_outfitters | flatTopswildernessguides.com
Jurgen's hosted hunts: Coming soon via LKS Outfitters website under Hunt categories. Inquire directly through Evan.

00:00 Chapter 1 - Harder Than Colorado?
09:52 Chapter 2 - Why No Helicopter
14:20 Chapter 3 - Hunting Culture & Invasive Species
26:03 Chapter 4 - Game Density Comparison
31:44 Chapter 5 - Red Stag vs. Elk
37:35 Chapter 6 - The Tahr Hunt
44:44 Chapter 7 - The Stag Hunt
01:02:29 Chapter 8 - Jurgen & The Hosted Hunts

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FOLLOW CLIFF
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/CliffGray
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/Cliffgry/
Facebook - https://facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff

Pursuit With Cliff Podcast
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/interviews-and-podcasts/

Cliff's Hunt Planning and Strategy Membership
 https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/

Hunt. Fish. Spear.  (Experiences, Courses and Seminars)
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/Experiences

Merch
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/shop/

SUBSCRIBE TO CLIFF'S NEWSLETTER:
https://PursuitWithCliff.com/#Newsletter

Craig Doria spent 30 years in Africa as a professional hunter in addition to running two anti-poaching operations in Zambia and Tanzania. He's also just written Bateleur, a suspense thriller built on all of it.
 
We cover what poaching actually looks like from the inside: the subsistence guy with a muzzleloader trying to feed his kids, the 150-snare line bisecting the wildebeest migration corridor, the zebra hide operation running skins through a cattle tannery and across borders, and the ivory networks.

From there we get into buffalo hunting (Craig's pick for the best hunting still available — hundreds of hunts, multiple close calls), elephant hunting and the weight it carries, two helicopter crashes during anti-poaching operations, and a closing conversation about what happiness really looks like when you've spent your life tracking wounded buffalo through thick bush — and what you give up to get it.

Craig Doria — Professional hunter (Zambia, Tanzania, Zimbabwe), anti-poaching operator, Author of Bateleur (Whistling Thorn Press).
Available on Amazon (hardcover and Kindle) https://amzn.to/3RMGGcY
Signed copies direct: [email protected] | craigdoriasafaris.com

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FOLLOW CLIFF
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/CliffGray
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/Cliffgry/
Facebook - https://facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff

Pursuit With Cliff Podcast
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/interviews-and-podcasts/

Cliff's Hunt Planning and Strategy Membership
 https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/

Hunt. Fish. Spear.  (Experiences, Courses and Seminars)
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/Experiences

Merch
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/shop/

SUBSCRIBE TO CLIFF'S NEWSLETTER:
https://PursuitWithCliff.com/#Newsletter

Cliff sits down for a live Q&A and answers two hours of questions from the audience and membership group — recoil and cartridge selection for elk, the case for a "two-rifle" system (a low-recoil trainer and a hunting rifle), why most North American hunters under-rate predator hunting, how to scout migration corridors in May and June for fall success, the realities of bow hunting in Africa, moon phase myths, and a long, honest answer on why he hunts at all.

In this episode:
The two-rifle system: when to shoot a 6 Creedmoor and when to shoot a 7 PRC
How to scout fall migration corridors RIGHT NOW (May–June)
First rifle Colorado elk: tarp, rain gear, or both
Bow hunting Africa — what most outfitters won't tell you
Why wolves and non-traditional lion hunts build the best hunters
Bear meat: spring vs. fall, and why bear fat is the real prize
The one question Cliff almost couldn't answer: why do I hunt?
Cliff's membership group - https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/
Cliff's Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff/

#elkhunting #publiclandhunting #huntingpodcast #pursuitwithcliff
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FOLLOW CLIFF
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/CliffGray
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/Cliffgry/
Facebook - https://facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff

Pursuit With Cliff Podcast
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/interviews-and-podcasts/

Cliff's Hunt Planning and Strategy Membership
 https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/

Hunt. Fish. Spear.  (Experiences, Courses and Seminars)
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/Experiences

Merch
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/shop/

SUBSCRIBE TO CLIFF'S NEWSLETTER:
https://PursuitWithCliff.com/#Newsletter

Most hunters think wolves can be managed like any other predator. The data says otherwise. In this episode, I sit down with Justin Webb, founder of the Foundation for Wildlife Management (F4WM), to dig into the unfiltered reality of wolf control in the West... what works, what doesn't, and why the "predator-prey balance" we all learned as kids isn't how this actually plays out on the landscape.

In this episode:
Why hunter success rate on wolves is under 0.25% — and what that means for "managing" them
The story of a pack that dug every trap out of the ground after smelling wax sand on a caught wolf
How F4WM removes wolves at $1,100 vs. $9,000 per wolf for state Wildlife Services
Suitable habitat, livestock depredation, and why Colorado's wolf situation was predicted years ago
How sportsmen can actually plug into wolf management instead of just complaining about it
Mentioned:
F4WM Membership & Banquets — https://f4wm.org
Wolfer Summit (Aug 6–9, Coeur d'Alene, ID) — https://f4wm.org/events/annual-wolfer-summit/
Justin's Wolf Trapping Master Class — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGCLbkDpqis

F4WM Instagram https://www.instagram.com/f4wm_wolf_management/
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FOLLOW CLIFF
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/CliffGray
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/Cliffgry/
Facebook - https://facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff

Pursuit With Cliff Podcast
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/interviews-and-podcasts/

Cliff's Hunt Planning and Strategy Membership
 https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/

Hunt. Fish. Spear.  (Experiences, Courses and Seminars)
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/Experiences

Merch
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/shop/

SUBSCRIBE TO CLIFF'S NEWSLETTER:
https://PursuitWithCliff.com/#Newsletter

In this episode, Jurgen Schwanecke and Cliff break down how hunting in New Zealand actually works, from public land access to species like tahr and chamois, and what makes it so different from hunting in the U.S. We also get into the realities—terrain, weather, physical demands, and why success isn’t guaranteed just because opportunity exists.

Jurgen also talks about culling work and the skills that come from shooting a high volume of animals in real-world conditions.

00:00 — Why New Zealand Might Be the Best Hunting Country
01:24 — How New Zealand Got Its Game Animals (1850s Origins)
11:30 — Jurgen's Background Guiding the Flat Tops in Colorado
13:25 — Conservation Culture Clash: Anti-Hunters in NZ vs. the US
16:37 — How New Zealand's Hunting System Actually Works (Tags, Seasons, Land)
21:05 — Bringing Firearms In: NZ Gun Laws After the 2019 Shooting
23:56 — DIY in NZ vs. Over-the-Counter Elk in Colorado: Which Is Harder?
27:25 — Fitness, Terrain, and Why NZ Rewards Going Deep
30:03 — If You Only Hunt Once: Why Tahr Should Be the Trip
32:35 — Red Stag vs. Elk: Calls, Behavior, and Tactics
34:17 — Bowhunting Culture in New Zealand
36:14 — Using NZ as an Off-Season Practice Ground for American Hunters
39:43 — Bringing Trophies and Meat Home
41:03 — Cultural Norms Americans Should Know Before Hunting NZ
47:25 — Jurgen's Culling Work: Goats, Deer, and Night Shooting
50:29 — Lessons From Killing Thousands: Shooting Positions and Setups
55:25 — The .223 as a Serious Hunting Cartridge
58:26 — Terminal Performance: .223 vs .308 vs .270
1:01:31 — Shoulder vs. Crease: The Big American/Kiwi Shot Placement Debate
1:10:18 — Why Jurgen Hunts With a .270 Winchester
1:12:05 — Gear Differences: What Kiwis Carry vs. What Americans Pack
1:15:44 — Jurgen's Guiding Operation: Public Land Wilderness Hunts
1:18:34 — Planning Your NZ Trip: Trip Length and Helicopter Access
1:22:42 — Where to Find Jurgen Online & Sign-Off

Jurgen Schwanecke’s youtube and instagram
https://www.youtube.com/@strider_media
https://www.instagram.com/strider_media/
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FOLLOW CLIFF
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/CliffGray
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/Cliffgry/
Facebook - https://facebook.com/PursuitWithCliff

Pursuit With Cliff Podcast
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/interviews-and-podcasts/

Cliff's Hunt Planning and Strategy Membership
 https://pursuitwithcliff.com/membership/

Hunt. Fish. Spear.  (Experiences, Courses and Seminars)
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/Experiences

Merch
https://pursuitwithcliff.com/shop/

SUBSCRIBE TO CLIFF'S NEWSLETTER:
https://PursuitWithCliff.com/#Newsletter