Stop the Killing

🎧 UNDERSTANDING DEADLY FORCE — PART TWO

Stop the Killing Podcast | S4E59

If you listened to last week’s bonus episode examining the Minnesota ICE agent shooting — where Katherine Schweit broke down the deadly force standard and whether it was lawful — and found yourself wanting to go deeper into how deadly force policies actually work, this episode is for you.

This is Part Two of our Understanding Deadly Force series, released to add further context and depth to the questions raised by that case — not by revisiting the incident itself, but by examining the policies, training, and human consequences behind deadly force decisions.

Hosts Sarah Ferris and Katherine Schweit are joined again by Jerri Williams, a retired FBI agent with 26 years of service, to explore what happens after a deadly force encounter — and why that aftermath matters just as much as the moment a trigger is pulled.

This episode picks up where Part One left off and focuses on:


Why officers involved in shootings must receive psychological and psychiatric support


How unresolved trauma can endanger officers, partners, and civilians


Why deadly force scenarios are mentally rehearsed — awake and asleep


The reality of firing until a threat is stopped, not “counting shots”


How training protocols evolved after catastrophic shootings


Why civilians are judged differently than law enforcement under deadly force laws


The legal and emotional risks civilians face when carrying and using a firearm


The persistent myth of the “good guy with a gun”

Listeners hear firsthand accounts from FBI agents who survived gunfights and lived with the consequences — not as spectacle, but as institutional knowledge meant to prevent future loss of life.

Public debate around deadly force often focuses on outcomes, not consequences.

This episode asks listeners to consider the weight of responsibility carried by those who use force — and the long shadow those decisions cast over careers, families, and lives.

It is not about defending or condemning any single case.It is about understanding what deadly force truly costs.


Bonus Episode — Minnesota ICE Shooting: Deadly Force Standard Explained


S4E58 — Understanding Deadly Force (Part One)


S4E59 — Understanding Deadly Force (Part Two)



Head to YouTube @SarahFerrisMedia




FBI Retired Case File Review Podcast – hosted by Jerri Williams


Early Access & Bonus Episodes: Apple Podcasts & Patreon


WANT THE VIDEOS? Head to YouTube 👉 @SarahFerrisMedia

Resources & Links:


Support us on Patreon for exclusive content and early access to episodes.


Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts.


More insights from Katherine Schweit: Katherine Schweit.


Stop the Bleed training.


FBI: RUN, HIDE, FIGHT.


CrimeCon UK Tickets — Use DISCOUNT CODE “FERRIS” for a special offer!

Check out more from Sarah Ferris Media:


CONmunity Podcast 


Klooghless: The Long Con


Guilty Greenie


Watching Two Detectives


The Bravery Academy

🧠 What This Episode Explores⚖️ Why This Episode Matters Now🔁 Recommended Listening Order🎥 Want the Videos?🎧 Listen & Watch
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🎧 Recommended Listening: Go Deeper on Deadly Force

If you’ve just listened to our bonus episode —Minnesota ICE Shooting: Former FBI Agent Explains the Deadly Force Standard — Was It Lawful? —and want to dig deeper into how deadly force decisions are actually made, this episode is the perfect companion.

To better understand the legal, psychological, and operational realities behind law enforcement use of deadly force, we recommend revisiting:

With Retired FBI Agent & Host of FBI Retired Case File Review, Jerri WilliamsStop the Killing Podcast | S4E58

In this powerful episode, hosts Sarah Ferris and Katherine Schweit are joined by Jerri Williams, a retired FBI agent with 26 years of service, to unpack what actually goes into a decision to fire a weapon — long before a single shot is ever taken.

While our Minnesota ICE bonus episode focuses on how deadly force is legally evaluated after the fact, this conversation fills in the gaps by explaining:


What officers are trained to consider before force is used


The FBI’s deadly force policy and decision framework


The psychological burden of carrying a gun every day


Why split-second decisions are shaped by training, stress, and threat perception


Key differences between U.S. and UK law enforcement use-of-force standards

Together, these episodes give listeners a fuller picture of how deadly force decisions are made, reviewed, and judged — without political rhetoric or hindsight bias.


[00:00:00] Why deadly force is so widely misunderstood


[00:03:10] The FBI deadly force policy explained


[00:14:00] The psychological weight of carrying a firearm


[00:20:00] Making split-second life-or-death decisions


[00:30:00] Real FBI case experiences involving deadly force


FBI Retired Case File Review Podcast – hosted by Jerri Williams


Early Access & Bonus Episodes: Apple Podcasts & Patreon


WANT THE VIDEOS? Head to YouTube 👉 @SarahFerrisMedia

Resources & Links:


Support us on Patreon for exclusive content and early access to episodes.


Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts.


More insights from Katherine Schweit: Katherine Schweit.


Stop the Bleed training.


FBI: RUN, HIDE, FIGHT.


CrimeCon UK Tickets — Use DISCOUNT CODE “FERRIS” for a special offer!

Check out more from Sarah Ferris Media:


CONmunity Podcast 


Klooghless: The Long Con


Guilty Greenie


Watching Two Detectives


The Bravery Academy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Stop the Killing Podcast, former FBI agent and prosecutor Katherine Schweit breaks down the fatal shooting of Renee Goode, a 37-year-old U.S. citizen, by a federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent in Minneapolis.

Rather than reacting to headlines or social media outrage, this episode focuses on one question only:

Did the officer’s actions meet the legal standard for the use of deadly force?

Drawing on Department of Justice policy, Supreme Court case law, and her own experience investigating officer-involved shootings, Schweit explains:


What “objectively reasonable” force actually means


When officers are legally prohibited from shooting at moving vehicles


Why anger, frustration, or refusal to comply do not justify deadly force


How federal investigations differ when the shooter is a federal agent


What investigators will be required to evaluate — regardless of politics

This episode does not reach a verdict.It explains the rules — so listeners can understand how this case will be judged.


DOJ and DHS deadly force policy


Shooting into a vehicle: what the law allows and forbids


Federal vs state investigations in officer-involved shootings


Why “escape” alone can never justify deadly force


What video evidence can — and cannot — tell us

This case has ignited protests and intense public debate.Understanding the actual legal standard is essential — especially when emotions are high and facts are still emerging.

Relevant Resources and Links:


Learn more about Change the Ref and how you can get involved: changetheref.org


Support the podcast on Patreon or via Apple Subscriptions.


Related podcast episodes:


Watching Two Detectives


CONmunity podcast 


The Bravery Academy


Guilty Greenie

If you found this episode impactful, consider subscribing to the Stop the Killing podcast on Apple Podcasts or supporting us on Patreon to help continue these crucial conversations. Your support allows us to keep producing this independent podcast and contribute to making a real-world difference.

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In this bonus episode of Stop the Killing, Sarah shares why she felt compelled to release this previously recorded Thanksgiving episode today — after waking to the devastating news of the Bondi Beach shooting in Australia.

Early reports indicate two gunmen — a father and son — opened fire on a Jewish Hanukkah celebration. Amid the terror, a civilian, Ahmed Al Ahmed, intervened and wrestled the gun from one of the attackers, an extraordinary act of bravery that undoubtedly saved lives. His courage, and the countless other acts of heroism that day, deserve to be remembered alongside the victims of this horrific event.

Following Sarah’s reflection on Bondi Beach, Katherine Schweit walks listeners through the recent headlines across the United States — a stark reminder of the rise in everyday gun violence: shootings in parking lots, malls, tree-lighting ceremonies, restaurants, and road-rage encounters. These are not the mass-casualty attacks that dominate front-page news, but the far more frequent, unpredictable shootings that end lives and shatter families daily.

Katherine breaks down:


Why “every neighbourhood” is now potentially vulnerable


How small disputes escalate into gunfire


Why situational awareness is essential


The dangers of anger and firearms in the same moment


The toll of stress and the holiday season on suicide by firearm


How we can all be part of the solution this holiday season

This episode is a reminder that civilians can make a difference, heroes walk among us, and awareness — combined with empathy, grace, and responsible gun ownership — can save lives.

To the victims and families affected in Bondi Beach, and to all impacted by gun violence everywhere: our hearts go out to you.

OIN THE CONVERSATION

We invite you to share this episode with friends, family, and educators. Let’s work together to create safer school environments and inspire action within our communities.

Call to Action: If you found this episode impactful, consider subscribing to the Stop the Killing podcast on Apple Podcasts or supporting us on Patreon to help continue these crucial conversations. Your support allows us to keep producing this independent podcast and contribute to making a real-world difference.

Relevant Resources and Links:


More insights from Katherine Schweit: Katherine Schweit.


Website: Sarah Ferris Media


Email: [email protected]

Share: If you found this episode insightful, share it with someone who might benefit from it and join the conversation on social media.

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RESOURCES


Stop the Bleed training


FBI


RUN, HIDE, FIGHT

This is a Sarah Ferris Media production on the Killer Podcasts Network.Check out more Sarah Ferris Media productions:


CONNING THE CON


KLOOGHLESS - THE LONG CON


GUILTY GREENIE


THE BRAVERY ACADEMY

WATCHING TWO DETECTIVES
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🎧 NEW FROM SARAH FERRIS MEDIA

CONmunity Podcast | Season Two: The BADmiral

A $3.75 billion international search-and-rescue organisation. Admirals from around the globe. A mission that promised purpose — and pay.But what happens when the story doesn’t quite add up?

From the creator of Stop the Killing and Klooghless: The Long Con, Sarah Ferris takes listeners on an 18-month global investigation to uncover the truth behind an organisation that may not be all it seems.

🎙️ THE BADmiral is Season Two of CONmunity Podcast — and all episodes are available now.Start with Episodes 1 & 2 wherever you get your podcasts — or binge the entire season ad-free right now on:👉 Apple Podcasts👉 Patreon.com/CONmunity

⚓️ Follow the investigation. Meet the people who believed. And discover why seeing deception while you’re in it can feel like trying to catch smoke in your hands.

Produced by Sarah Ferris Media on the Killer Podcasts Network

Check out more Sarah Ferris Media productions:


Stop the Killing


Klooghless – The Long Con


The Bravery Academy


Guilty Greenie

📧 Contact: [email protected]🌐 Website: Sarah Ferris Media

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