The Apprenticeship Way with Marc Alan Schelske

Episode 062 - The Justice of Jesus (With Joash P. Thomas)

Some Christians think Justice means that the guilty get their due. Other Christians think Justice is when everyone gets what they need. In a world that feels so unjust, why are we so divided on what Justice is? What would it mean for us to do justice Jesus' way?

Show Notes

In this conversation, I get to chat with Joash Thomas about his new book, The Justice of Jesus: Reimagining Your Church’s Life Together To Pursue Liberation and Wholeness. When I saw that title, I knew I had to talk with him. We discuss the multifaceted nature of justice, particularly from the perspective of the Global South. Joash contrasts this with Western interpretations of justice, emphasizing the importance of understanding historical contexts, such as colonization, and the implications of privilege. We talk about the role of the church in advocating for justice, the need for community engagement, and the cost associated with pursuing true justice.

Takeaways

Justice is defined by the good news it brings to the poor.

The Global South offers a different perspective on justice than the West.

Christian justice involves restoration and accountability for all.

Colonization has deeply affected the understanding of justice in the church.

Privilege must be acknowledged in discussions of justice.

The church has a responsibility to engage with marginalized communities.

Justice should not be a cheap pursuit; it requires sacrifice.

The church's budget should reflect a commitment to justice.

We must recognize our interconnectedness in systems of oppression.

The gospel message includes both spiritual and physical liberation.

Recommended Resources

The Justice of Jesus: Reimagining Your Church's Life Together to Pursue Liberation and Wholeness

Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode.

You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube.

More about My Conversation Partner

Fr. Joash P. Thomas

Joash Thomas was born and raised in India and has served as a U.S. political consultant and lobbyist before moving into global human rights advocacy. He holds multiple degrees and serves in local church ministry as an ordained Priest (a new development since the recording of this podcast) in the Diocese of St. Anthony in Toronto, Canada. Drawing from his St. Thomas Christian roots and a decolonized, justice-centered understanding of Scripture, he works to help Christian folks imagine a faith that unites rather than divides— and that stands firmly with neighbors on the margins.

Find Joash Here

Website: https://www.joashpthomas.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joash.thomas

Threads: https://www.threads.com/@joashpthomas

Today's Sponsor

The Apprenticeship Lap Patronship - Support Marc's work! www.MarcOptIn.com

Transcription

Marc Schelske 0:00Hey, friends. I'm Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 62. "The Justice of Jesus."

SPONSOR

Today's podcast is made possible by, well… me and all the work that I do. You might not realize it, but most of the time, the sponsors of this podcast are just other things I make and sell: My writers retreat, my books, all my work to help people have a healthy inner life and spiritual journey following the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. The reason that I list these as sponsors is that the truth is that making a podcast takes time and money, and the reason that I can do it at all is that people like you buy the things that I make.

Now, for many of you, maybe most, the best way to support me in my work is to just buy my books when they come out. Don't worry. The next one, Love's Wide Embrace, is coming out sometime this year, probably before summer. But there is a small group of folks who have asked me about how to directly support my work,

Episode 061 - Six Weeks to Grow? Yes, Please!

Journaling for Spiritual Growth, my book that teaches you a sustainable practice for spiritual and emotional growth, comes out this week. This is the 2nd edition, published with Whitaker House. Let's browse through the book together!

Show Notes

In this episode, Marc discusses his new book, Journaling for Spiritual Growth (2nd ed.), exploring its themes, structure, and the transformative power of journaling. He pages through the book, pointing out key features, so you can sort out if this is the right book for you.

Takeaways

Journaling is a transformative practice that can lead to personal and spiritual growth.

The book is structured into six weeks, each focusing on different aspects of journaling.

Perspective is crucial for a sustainable journaling practice.

Templates can help guide your journaling and make it more effective.

Grace is the only safe environment for spiritual growth.

The appendices provide valuable resources and insights for journaling.

Creating a habit of journaling requires understanding competing habits.

Silence is an essential part of the journaling process.

Inward and Godward reflections are key ingredients for effective journaling.

Faithfulness in journaling means returning to the practice consistently.

Recommended Resources

www.JournalingForSpiritualGrowth.com

Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode.

You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube.

More about My Conversation Partner

It's me. Hi. I'm the problem, it's me.

Marc Alan Schelske is a happily recovering fundamentalist praying for the restoration of all things. He writes and teaches about spiritual maturity, emotional growth, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. His books, including Walking Otherward, Journaling for Spiritual Growth, and The Wisdom of Your Heart, can be found at www.MarcAlanSchelske.com. Marc serves as the teaching elder at Bridge City Community Church in Milwaukie, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, where we work to keep all things, even Christianity, a bit weird.

Find Marc Here

Website: www.MarcAlanSchelske.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarcAlanSchelske

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marcalanscherlske/

Threads: https://www.threads.com/@marcalanschelske

Today's Sponsor

Journaling for Spiritual Growth - Brand new 2nd edition. Available in all the book places.

Transcription

Marc Schelske 0:00Hey, friends. I'm Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth following the way of Jesus. This is episode 61: Six weeks to grow? Yes, please!

SPONSOR

Today's podcast is brought to you by my brand-new hot-off-the-presses book, Journaling for Spiritual Growth. Second Edition. Launch day is always exciting for an author, and this is my sixth launch. I'm starting to feel like I'm actually an author, maybe. The rest of this podcast is going to have to do with this book in some way, what it's about. So that's all I'll say for now.

Marc Schelske 0:32I spent a lot of time in bookstores when I was a kid. It's a special kind of joyful piece to sit on the carpeted floor of a bookstore aisle, slowly browsing through books you might want to read. Most of us buy our books online now, so we don't get to do that much anymore. I thought I would take some time to do that with you today. I recorded this Page Flip video of my new book a week ago, and it's posted on my website, but I wanted to share it here with you, dear podcast listener, for two reasons.

First, because if you follow this podcast, you're interested in the kinds of things I'm up to when it comes to spiritual practice, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. So there's a pretty good chance this book might be up your alley, but unless you know what's in it, how will you know if it's a book for you?

Second,

Episode 060 - Navigating Toward LGBTQ Affirmation (or How I became an Affirming Pastor)

My journey from the Traditionalist view to becoming a fully Affirming pastor, with a perspective on a Gospel path to full Inclusion. This is a recorded version of the same presentation I gave at the Open Table Conference School of Theology in Sunriver in June of 2025.

Show Notes

In this episode, Marc Alan Schelske explores the complex relationship between faith and LGBTQ affirmation. Through personal stories, theological reflection, and the teachings of Jesus, he explains his own journey from the Traditionalist position to a position of full welcome, inclusion, and affirmation.

Takeaways

Marc, like many of us, had never really investigated the claims of the Traditionalist position that justified exclusion.

The resources for in-depth study on this topic, including all the relevant scriptures, are provided in a downloadable resource for free.

The Gospel, which is the narrative of Jesus' life, acts, teaching, death, and resurrection, is meant to show us the true face of the Father so that we can set aside the false images we project onto God.

Jesus' life shows us over and over that God's nature is to include those on the margins, rather than protect hard lines of exclusion.

Recommended Resources

Blog Version of my School of Theology presentation on John 13, The Foot Washing.

Downloadable 11-page PDF Resource: Navigating LGBTQ Inclusion

The Open Table Conference

Information and Registration for Fall Class: A Gospel Path to LGBTQ Affirmation

Email Marc at [email protected] to get on his invite list for the weekly writing sessions at Slow Pour or the twice-monthly virtual co-writing sessions.

Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode.

You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube.

More about My Conversation Partner

It's me. Hi. I'm the problem, it's me.

Marc Alan Schelske is a happily recovering fundamentalist praying for the restoration of all things. He writes and teaches about spiritual maturity, emotional growth, and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. His books, including Walking Otherward, Journaling for Spiritual Growth, and The Wisdom of Your Heart, can be found at www.MarcAlanSchelske.com. Marc serves as the teaching elder at Bridge City Community Church in Milwaukie, Oregon, a suburb of Portland, where we work to keep all things, even Christianity, a bit weird.

Find Marc Here

Website: www.MarcAlanSchelske.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarcAlanSchelske

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marcalanscherlske/

Threads: https://www.threads.com/@marcalanschelske

Today's Sponsor

The Writers Advance - A weekend to help writers write. November 13-16, 2025. For more information, see: www.TheWritersAdvance.com

Transcription

Marc Schelske 0:03Hey, friends. I'm Marc Alan Schelske, and this is The Apprenticeship Way, a podcast about spiritual growth, following the way of Jesus. This is episode 60: Navigating Toward LGBTQ Affirmation (Or How I became an Affirming Pastor.)

SPONSOR

Today's podcast is brought to you by The Writers Advance. I'm a writer (You probably know that) and I'm a big nerd about the writing process. That's probably just a function of me being a big nerd about most everything I'm excited about. Part of that nerdery is that I've read all the best books about writing. I've taken a number of courses, and back in the day, I went to writers' conferences regularly. In that time, I learned something that I'm going to offer you right now for free.

By far the best way to learn to write is just to write. All those great resources don't make writing happen. Reading books about writing isn't writing. Sitting in giant conference centers listening to experts talk about their process isn't writing. The only thing that really moves the needle is writing a lot of words.

Episode 059 - How the Beatitudes Could Save the World and Us. (With Dr. Bradley Jersak)

An offhand comment by Dr. Jersak prompted this conversation. "We’re pushing back against the construction of a Christianity that’s the opposite of the Beatitudes. For those who don’t want to be susceptible to the lure of power-over Christianity, I recommend praying the Beatitudes every day . . . it is a furnace of discernment like none other." Woah...In a world where Christian leaders and many of their followers are increasingly espousing structures of power-over, saying empathy is a sin, and even co-opting the language of "Godly Hate,"1 For instance, "Christians must recover the lost virtue of Hatred. If not, Christianity will survive, but the West will be finished." - Pastor Joel Webbon, Twitter message, May 19, 2025. there is a real urgency to re-center our practice on Jesus' teaching in the Beatitudes.

Show Notes

In this conversation, Dr. Bradley Jersak and I explore the urgent need for Christians to re-center themselves in the Beatitudes as a guide for spiritual growth, ethical living, and community engagement. The need for this has only increased with the rise of Power-over ideologies such as Christian Nationalism, and forms of Christianity that are denying the way of Jesus in their actions.

Takeaways

Praying the Beatitudes can lead to personal transformation.

Kenosis, or self-emptying, is a key aspect of living out the Beatitudes.

Christian nationalism and all forms of power-over ideology contradict the teachings of Jesus, and this can be most clearly seen in the Beatitudes.

The Beatitudes call for a radical rethinking of patriotism and can counteract misguided theology.

A commitment to praying the Beatitudes regularly will serve as a "furnace of discernment" for wise discernment of what is truly "the word of the Lord" in our lives.

Recommended Resources

The Ladder of the Beatitudes, by Jim Forest.

Beatitudes: When Mountain Meets Valley, by Ron Dart.

Are We Done Fighting: Building Understanding in a World of Hate and Division, by Matthew Legge.

Downloadable "Furnace of Discernment" Beatitute Prayer PDF

Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode.

You can also watch and share the video version on YouTube.

More about My Conversation Partner

Dr. Bradley Jersak

Bradley is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC. He currently serves as the Principal of St. Stephen’s University in New Brunswick, where he continues as the Dean and faculty member of SSU’s School of Theology & Culture. He also teaches peace studies courses with the Jim Forrest Institute. Through his books and seminars, Brad shares the good news that God is Love, perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world.

Find Bradley Here

Website: https://bradjersak.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradley.jersak

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradley.jersak/

Threads: https://www.threads.net/@bradley.jersak

Today's Sponsor

YOU! Via your support of My Writing - After being nagged by a number of friends, I've opened a means for you to directly support my writing work. Making this podcast takes time and money, and it’s possible because people like you buy what I create. I've been asked how folks can support my writing when there’s no new book out. So, here it is: I’m opening up patron support. Instead of using Patreon (which takes a cut), I’ve set up a similar subscription system myself. Here are the tiers:

LISTENER TIER (Free):

Get my monthly-ish email newsletter, Apprenticeship Notes, and updates about new releases. Perfect if you want to keep up with my work but can’t commit financially.

READER TIER ($5/month or $50/year):

Includes the newsletter and access to a monthly Spiritual Life Virtual Round Table—about nine times a year. These are private gatherings with presentations and discus...

Episode 058 - Following Jesus in the Face of Political Panic, Christian Supremacy, and Creeping Fascism. (With Susan Carson, Bradley Jersak, and Brian Zahnd.)

We stand in a dire historical moment, and one of the questions that is swirling for many of us is about what it means to be a Christian right now. There are folks wearing the label Christian, many in good faith, who are endorsing things that seem so plainly unlike Christ. The chaos is swirling and it is all coming at us so fast that we are being overwhelmed. Because this is so important, I invited some friends to talk about this crisis, and how Other-centered, Co-suffering love can lead us.

Show Notes

In this conversation, motivated by the launch of my new book, Walking Otherward: Forty Meditations on Following Jesus' Path of Other-centered, Co-suffering Love, Susan Carson, Dr. Bradley Jersak, and Brian Zahnd discuss how this path might help us face the moment.

Takeaways

Fear makes us susceptible to the temptation to use power-over as a way to try to get good things done.

This temptation is the same that Jesus faced in the wilderness, and the church is facing it again today.

Gathering in church communities committed to practicing the other-centered, co-suffering way is essential right now.

Praying the Beatitudes, and becoming intimately familiar with the Sermon on the Mount will guard our hearts.

Stay focused. Be Patience. Engage in one-on-one acts of care, service, and advocacy.

Recommended Resources

Postcards from Babylon: The American Church in Exile, by Brian Zahnd.

When Everything's On Fire: Faith Forged From the Ashes, by Brian Zahnd.

Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News, by Brian Zahnd.

A More Christlike God: A More Beautiful Gospel, by Dr. Bradley Jersak.

A More Christlike Word: Reading Scripture the Emmaus Way, by Dr. Bradley Jersak.

A More Christlike Way: A More Beautiful Faith, by Dr. Bradley Jersak.

Rooted (In): Thriving in Connection with God, Yourself, and Others, by Susan Carson.

The Patient Ferment of the Early Church: The Improbable Rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire, by Alan Kreider.

The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky

"The Grand Inquisitor" Filmed performance on Youtube.

The Ladder of the Beatitudes, by Jim Forest.

Beatitudes: When Mountain Meets Valley, by Ron Dart.

Are We Done Fighting: Building Understanding in a World of Hate and Division, by Matthew Legge.

Direct support for Mercy Aiken, a peacemaker in Palestine.

Scroll down for a full transcript of this episode.

You can also watch and share the video version on Youtube.

More about My Conversation Partners

Susan Carson

Susan is an author, speaker, podcaster, pray-er, and lifelong unlearner. She's the founder and director of Roots&Branches Network, a listening and healing prayer ministry in Cincinnati, Ohio. With her team, she helps people encounter God in ways that transform and restore.

Find Susan Here

Website: https://www.susancarson.net/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/susanfcarson

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susancarsonauthor/

Threads: https://www.threads.net/@susancarsonauthor

Dr. Bradley Jersak

Bradley is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC. He currently serves as the Principal of St. Stephen’s University in New Brunswick, where he continues as the Dean and faculty member of SSU’s School of Theology & Culture. He also teaches peace studies courses with JFI.SSU.ca and is a regular Open Table Conference crew lecturer. Through his books and seminars, Brad shares the good news that God is Love, perfectly revealed in Jesus Christ, and that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers us to heal this broken world.

Find Bradley Here

Website: https://bradjersak.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bradley.jersak

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradley.jersak/