Psychologists Off the Clock

When was the last time you sparked up a conversation with a stranger and surprised yourself with how good it felt?
Behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley, author of A Little More Social, returns to the podcast to discuss with Michael why we systematically underestimate how positively strangers respond, how connection supports happiness, health, and longevity, and the key mechanisms behind our social pessimism (misjudging warmth vs. competence, overlooking reciprocity, and self-fulfilling avoidance).
Nicholas shares research on how quickly people update after a conversation and how fast those gains can fade, plus practical “easy choice” experiments like asking someone to take your photo or simply asking, “Can you tell me your story?”
Plus, in a special post-interview discussion, listener-turned-friend of Michael’s, therapist Dr. Jennifer Kauder, joins Michael to reflect on voice vs. text, comfort-zone challenges, and why real-time connection changes everything.

Listen and Learn:
The surprising benefits of connecting with people you don't know, and why our minds trick us into fearing these interactions that can lengthen and enrich our lives
Psychological traps that make us overly pessimistic about reaching out to others, and why we miss out on deeper, happier connections due to misplaced expectations
Research on why trying to push past social awkwardness just once isn't enough, and why our brains quickly forget positive interactions
Why our confidence drops right before we approach someone new, the psychology behind why starting a conversation is much easier than anticipating it, and how small mindsets can instantly dissolve social anxiety
A simple, foolproof question that skips past awkward small talk, ignites genuine curiosity, and uncovers the fascinating, hidden stories

Resources:
A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593319543
Nicholas’ Website: https://www.nicholasepley.com/
Nicholas Epley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-epley/
Rejection Proof by Jia Jiang: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780804141383

About Nicholas Epley
Nicholas Epley is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research, at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition—how thinking people think about other thinking people—to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and happiness course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life. His research has appeared in more than two dozen empirical journals, been featured by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, CNN, Wired, and National Public Radio, among many others, and has been funded by the National Science Foundation and the Templeton Foundation. He has been awarded the 2008 Theoretical Innovation Award from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the 2011 Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution to Psychology from the American Psychological Association, the 2015 Book Prize for the Promotion of Social and Personality Science, and the 2018 Career Trajectory Award from the Society for Experimental Social Psychology. Epley was named a “professor to watch” by the Financial Times, one of the “World’s Best 40 under 40 Business School Professors” by Poets and Quants, and one of the 100 Most Influential in Business Ethics in 2015 by Ethisphere. He is the author of Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want.
His new book, A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection, was published in May! (Our UK listeners will find the book titled Hello: The Unexpected Power of Choosing To Connect)

Related Episodes
422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold
313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brian Thompson
393. Supercommunicators with Charles Duhigg
360. The Laws of Connection with David Robson

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Parenting often feels like a high-stakes guessing game played in the middle of a meltdown or a deafening teenage silence.
Clinical psychologist and bestselling author Lindsay C. Gibson returns to Psychologist Off the Clock to discuss her new book, "How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child," and the core mindsets that build emotional maturity across development.
You’ll hear how emotionally immature parenting shows up, why self-reflection protects against repeating harmful patterns, how mistakes and repair strengthen trust, and what it looks like to treat kids as fully human with rich inner worlds, even when they don’t say much or you don’t understand them.
Listen for a relational, autonomy-supportive approach that can improve parenting and adult relationships alike.

Listen and Learn:
How the toddler-like self-centeredness of emotionally immature parents forces their adult children to constantly manage everyone else's happiness at the absolute cost of their own identity and peace
Why breaking the cycle of childhood trauma doesn't require being a perfect parent, but rather practicing self-awareness and honoring your child's deeply sensitive
Why parenting is a relational enterprise rather than a production line, where meaningful connection isn't measured by long-winded conversations, but by showing genuine curiosity and active engagement
Shifting from "carpentry-style" parenting that forces a narrow path to "gardening-style" parenting that nourishes the child's true, unique self
Why true parenting connection doesn't require you to perfectly understand your child at all times, but rather to create a safe, curious environment where they feel inherently understandable

Resources:
How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child by Lindsay Gibson https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593735367
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Children by Lindsay Gibson https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781626251700
Lidnsey’s Website: https://www.lindsaycgibson.com/
How to Avoid Estrangement (a Q&A with Lindsay for Yael’s newsletter)
Stories that Connect (about sharing books, Yael’s newsletter post inspired by Lindsay Gibson)
Video from Ed Tronick’s research on the “still face experiment”
Range by David Epstein https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780735214507

About Lindsay Gibson
Lindsay Gibson, PsyD, is a clinical psychologist specializing in emotional maturity and its ripple effects across the lifespan. Her book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents became a #1 bestseller and has helped countless readers make sense of their childhoods — and themselves. Her newest book, How to Raise an Emotionally Mature Child, takes that work upstream, exploring what it actually looks like to raise kids who are emotionally grounded and self-aware. With a background that spans art, literature, and clinical psychology, Lindsay brings a rare combination of intellectual curiosity and practical wisdom to her work. She practices in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and has a habit of mailing Carl Rogers books to people she likes — which is how she became one of Yael's favorite humans.

Related Episodes:
262. Relationships with Emotionally Immature People with lindsay Gibson
303. Both/And Thinking with Marianne Lewis

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Modern life has become a gauntlet of "dangerous weather" that frequently strips away our most basic human needs.
In this episode, Emily speaks with author and strategist Stephanie Malia Kraus about her book, How We Thrive, and the essential practice of "rehumaning."
Stephanie breaks down the four systemic forces, from hustle culture to addictive tech, that undermine our well-being and offers a roadmap for reclaiming play, wonder, and rest.
The discussion bridges the gap between ancient Hawaiian wayfinding and modern neuroscience, highlighting the critical importance of restorative "downstates" and simple regulation tools for navigating an increasingly overstimulated world.

Listen and Learn:
How the Hawaiian tradition of Wayfinding teaches us to navigate a world that has "shifted on its axis" by anchoring into timeless human essentials, and influenced Stephanie's book
Why the friction you feel in parenting isn't a personal failure, but a biological mismatch between our human nature and modern society
Recognizing the four universal forces: Overtapped, Overworked, Overstimulated, and Overwrought, and understanding why feeling depleted isn't a personal failure, but a natural response to the "stormy" conditions of modern living
Why our modern "social jet lag", the mismatch between our hectic schedules and our biological needs, is fueling a youth mental health crisis, and how reclaiming "human essentials" like sleep, play, and internal attunement can act as a biological superpower for both parents and teens
How the practices of celebrating small wins, contributing to others, and nurturing an inborn sense of belief act as biological shields that restore our dignity and spark a protective sense of hope even in the most difficult seasons of life
How "lemon squeezes", a simple technique of tensing and releasing your muscles for 20 seconds, uses the science of progressive muscle relaxation to signal safety to your nervous system and bring your body back into balance in less than a minute

Resources:
How We Thrive: Caring for Kids and Ourselves in a Changing World https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781071957561
https://rehumaningourlives.substack.com/
https://www.rehumaning.com/
Connect with Stephanie on Social Media:
https://www.youtube.com/@StephanieMaliaKrauss
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniemaliakrauss/
https://www.instagram.com/stephaniemaliakrauss/

About Stephanie Malia Krauss
Stephanie Malia Krauss is an author, speaker, and strategist focused on rehumaning childhood and our lives. Her newest book, How We Thrive, explores the urgent need to protect human essentials—like sleep, play, and connection—that modern life diminishes or denies. An educator and social worker who has worked from the classroom to Congress, Stephanie now advises states, districts, and national organizations on holistic approaches to preparing and caring for kids. Stephanie is the bestselling author of Whole Child, Whole Life: 10 Ways to Help Kids Live, Learn, and Thrive and Making It: What Today’s Kids Need for Tomorrow’s World. Her work has been featured by Newsweek, PBS NewsHour, Parents, and more.

Related Episodes:
455. The New Blueprint for Success with Ana Homayoun
444. Mattering with Jennifer Wallace
433. Rethinking Screens and Video Games with Ash Brandin
424. Modern Anxiety with Noelle McWard Aquino
414. The Disengaged Teen with Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop
409. Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times with Melinda Wenner Moyer
324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace

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We’ve been taught that pain always means something is broken, but it’s often just a "stuck" danger signal in the brain.
To show us how to turn that signal off, Jill Stoddard talks with Alan Gordon, the founder of the Pain Psychology Center and author of The Way Out. Drawing on his own recovery from chronic pain, Alan explains how fear and conditioning keep us hurting even after we've healed.
Through fascinating stories like the "construction worker" case and MRI surprise, they dive into the science of neuroplastic pain and the tools you can use to retrain your nervous system, build stress tolerance, and finally feel safe in your own body again.

Listen and Learn:
Alan’s personal frustration with navigating a broken medical system and how that led to the discovery of a groundbreaking mind-body approach that offers lasting relief for chronic pain
How your brain can misinterpret emotional stress or past memories as physical danger to create real, persistent pain even after an injury has fully healed
The specific clues that can reveal whether your chronic physical pain is actually coming from your brain, and how to break the cycle of fear that keeps symptoms alive
The reason why traditional recovery methods can fail when we ignore our internal state, and how "backward engineering" your physical tension can signal to your brain that the danger has passed
Why the clinical evolution of Pain Reprocessing Therapy shifted from exploring unconscious emotions to targeting the brain's internal danger signals, and how modern neuroscience identifies the hidden driver keeping your physical symptoms alive
Why somatic tracking outperforms traditional mindfulness

Resources:
The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593086858
Pain Psychology Center Website: https://painpsychologycenter.com/
Follow the Pain Psychology Center on Social Media:
https://instagram.com/thepainpsychologycenter
https://www.facebook.com/painpsychologycenter
Tell Me About Your Pain - Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tell-me-about-your-pain/id1503847664
The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pain-reprocessing-therapy-podcast/id1785564399
TEDxAdelaide - Lorimer Moseley - Why Things Hurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwd-wLdIHjs

About Alan Gordon
Alan Gordon is the creator of Pain Reprocessing Therapy (PRT) and founder of the Pain Psychology Center. He developed PRT through years of clinical practice and research, and its efficacy has been validated in randomized controlled trials published in JAMA Psychiatry. He is the author of The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain.

Related Episodes:
39. Chronic Pain with Adrianne Sloan
75. Mindful Self-Compassion with Christopher Germer
114. Way of Effortless Mindfulness with Loch Kelly
155. Mindfulness and Recovery with Rebecca Williams
177. Mind-Body Practices for Stress and Overwhelm with Rebekkah LaDyne
201. Fierce Compassion with Kristin Neff
336. Mindfulness and Living Expansively with Sharon Salzberg
364. The Brain-Gut Connection with Megan Riehl

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What if success isn’t about grinding toward big goals but about following curiosity through small, imperfect experiments that lead somewhere better?

On Psychologist Off the Clock, award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur Anne-Laure Le Cunff, founder of Nest Labs and author of Tiny Experiments, shares how a health scare while working at Google helped her shift from rigid, linear goals to an experimental mindset rooted in curiosity.

You’ll hear about common “cognitive scripts” (the sequel, crowd pleaser, and epic scripts), how to design tiny experiments to test beliefs without framing outcomes as failure, and how to reframe success as learning.

The conversation also covers “surface area for luck,” the difference between legacy and generativity, and ends with reflections on goals, values, and meaningful community support.

Listen and Learn:
How Anne-Laure’s career was fueled by imposter syndrome, and led to a life-threatening wake-up call that pushed her to rethink priorities and embrace a more experimental, balanced path
Why rigid, linear goals only work when everything is certain, and why it’s more effective to replace them with curiosity and experimentation
Why many of your goals come from hidden “cognitive scripts,” and by questioning them, you can move from autopilot to intentional choices
Doing “tiny experiments” and observing results without judgment before deciding what to adjust or repeat
Why instead of treating outcomes as success or failure, you should approach situations like small experiments, where everything that happens, especially mistakes, is just useful data for learning and adjusting
The “Surface area for luck” and why the more you try new things, meet people, and put yourself in different situations, the more you increase the chances of unexpected good opportunities happening in your life
Focusing on making a real-time, meaningful impact on people and communities around us through everyday acts of care and mutual support

Resources:
Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593715130
Anne-Laure’s Website: https://anne-laure.net/
Tiny Experiments: https://tinyexperiments.org/
Connect with Anne-Laure on Instagram https://instagram.com/neuranne
Ness Labs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ness_labs/?hl=en
Ness Labs X: https://x.com/ness_labs
Ness Labs Website: https://nesslabs.com/
Michael’s Confidence Course: Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead http://herold.coach/course

About Anne-Laure Le Cunff
Anne-Laure Le Cunff is an award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur. She is the founder of Ness Labs, where her weekly newsletter is read by more than 100,000 curious minds. Her research at King’s College London focuses on the psychology and neuroscience of lifelong learning, curiosity, and adaptability. Her book, Tiny Experiments, is a transformative guide for living a more experimental life, turning uncertainty into curiosity, and carving a path of self-discovery. Previously, she worked at Google as an executive on digital health projects. Her work has been featured in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Financial Times, WIRED, and more.

Related Episodes:
349. The Hunger Habit with Judson Brewer
351. You Only Die Once with Jodi Wellman
454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold

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