The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins is joined by Neal McCluskey to discuss his new book, Fighting for the Freedom to Learn. We move beyond the common narrative that school choice is a modern, free-market invention of the 1950s, instead tracing the historical roots of educational pluralism back to the colonial era.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University 
Key Takeaways:
School Choice Has Deep Roots: The desire for educational pluralism predates 20th-century market-based theories; it is a fundamental human response to the imposition of centralized values that dates back to the colonial period.
The "Common School" Conflict: The centralized, government-controlled education system introduced by reformers like Horace Mann historically marginalized minority and religious groups, leading to immediate pushback that still echoes in today's disputes over curriculum and religious content.
Pluralism as a Solution: Educational choice is not just an economic policy; it is a social one. It allows diverse communities to embrace their own values—whether religious, philosophical, or pedagogical—without needing to impose those values on everyone else.
Accountability vs. Content: A robust pluralistic system can prioritize parental choice while still maintaining accountability, ensuring students learn essential skills (reading, writing, math) without forcing a uniform, state-mandated worldview.
Why Culture Wars Persist: Universal school choice programs are currently expanding across the U.S. not just as a reaction to COVID-19, but as a legislative strategy to resolve long-standing disputes over which values and histories are taught in public classrooms.
Episode Highlights & Timecodes:
[00:08:49] – Intro: Neal McCluskey on Fighting for the Freedom to Learn.
[00:13:20] – Challenging the "1950s" narrative: The true historical roots of school choice.
[00:18:15] – The Horace Mann legacy: How common schooling fueled early cultural conflict.
[00:23:50] – Civil rights and minority perspectives on controlling education.
[00:34:56] – What does a "baseline" education look like? Balancing civic skills with parental rights.
[00:41:35] – Why public schools struggle to teach controversial content (e.g., evolution vs. creationism).
[00:46:11] – Redefining the "Public Good": Is pluralism the ultimate goal of educational policy?
[00:56:02] – The modern surge: Why states are embracing universal school choice today.

In this episode, Drew Perkins is joined by Dr. Nathan Dolenc to unpack his recent critique of the Next Generation Science Standards (NGSS), detailed in his report, Good Intentions, Bad Implementation. While acknowledging the positive intentions behind the standards, Dolenc argues that the current implementation inadvertently prioritizes methods and inquiry over fundamental scientific principles, leading to fragmented curricula and the conflation of engineering with core scientific content. They explore the critical importance of restoring foundational knowledge as the bedrock of science education, discussing why rigorous content mastery must precede complex, phenomenon-based inquiries to prevent cognitive overload and ensure students truly understand the nature of science rather than just "doing" it.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
*intro/outro voice credit: David O'Hara, Professor of Philosophy, Classics & Environmental Studies; Director of Environmental Studies & Sustainability at Augustana University 
Key Takeaways:
The Flaws of NGSS: The Next Generation Science Standards (NGSS) are critiqued for fragmenting the scientific process into an artificial matrix, failing to provide clear foundational definitions, and promoting illogical curriculum sequencing that lacks coherence.
Foundation First (Expertise Reversal Effect): Students should prioritize foundational content mastery before engaging in complex, phenomenon-based inquiries. Starting with integrated or phenomenon-based curricula before establishing a foundation can lead to cognitive overload and hinder deep learning.
Science vs. Engineering: There is a critical need to separate science from engineering. NGSS incorrectly conflates the two; engineering should be treated as an interdisciplinary capstone activity that requires prior scientific content mastery, rather than an introductory method for teaching science.
Rethinking "Inquiry": While natural exploration is appropriate for early childhood education, the humanities-based interpretation of inquiry in current standards often prioritizes "dazzle" and entertainment over rigorous knowledge construction.
Academic Engagement over Entertainment: Educators must prioritize academic and intellectual engagement. Activities that focus on student entertainment or "activist science" often result in an "illusion of learning" where students finish projects without understanding the underlying scientific laws or concepts.
A Proposed Knowledge Model: To improve outcomes, curriculum should follow a three-phase model: Constructing (building foundational knowledge), Reinforcing (practice and application), and Utilizing (complex, real-world engineering or problem-solving).
Episode Highlights & Timecodes:
[00:17:36] Overview of the NGSS Critique: Nathan outlines the core issues with the Next Generation Science Standards, including the omission of guiding principles, the incorrect conflation of science and engineering, and the lack of logical sequencing.
[00:26:29] Defining Science Principles: A discussion on why the "nature of science" principles—such as evidence-based reasoning and objectivity—should be central to science education, rather than relegated to an appendix.
[00:30:57] The Fragmentation of Inquiry: Nathan argues that NGSS breaks the scientific process into an "artificial matrix," failing to teach the true, iterative cycle of questioning, methodology, and data analysis.
[00:39:53] Logical Sequencing of Content: An examination of how flexible standards and poorly designed curricula create gaps in student knowledge by disrupting the logical, sequential flow of disciplines like chemistry and biology.
[00:48:29] Science vs. Engineering: Why the conflation of these two fields in NGSS often leads to "engineering appreciation" projects that create cognitive overload rather than teaching rigorous engineering practices.
[00:58:29] Pedagogical Starting Points: A debate on the "expertise reversal effect"—why starting with integrated, phenomenon-based curricula can make it difficult for students to master foundational content.
[01:34:18] Proposed Scientific Knowledge Model: Nathan introduces his three-phase model for science instruction: Constructing (foundational knowledge), Reinforcing (practice), and Utilizing (complex application).

In this episode, Drew Perkins talks with veteran high school math teacher and author Kristen Smith to discuss her evolution from a more traditional approach to math teaching, in the style of Teach Like a Champion, to one that might best be described as "teacher-led inquiry". We explore her "Inquiry Sandwich" methodology—a balanced pedagogical framework that leverages explicit routines to build fluency while creating space for deep, conceptual exploration.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
Key Takeaways
The "Inquiry Sandwich" Methodology: Learn how to bridge the "math wars" divide by blending explicit instruction with inquiry-based learning. This structure—starting with retrieval practice, moving into conceptual inquiry, and concluding with formal explicit instruction—allows students to build fluency while developing deep mathematical understanding.
Disrupting the "Not a Math Person" Narrative: Math anxiety is often a result of rigid instruction. Discover how to engineer classroom experiences that prioritize consistent student success, clear modeling, and structured problem-solving to help students see themselves as capable mathematicians.
Moving Beyond the "Geometry Sandwich": A critique of traditional fragmented course sequences (Algebra 1 → Geometry → Algebra 2). We explore the benefits of integrated mathematics pathways and the importance of allowing student choice in elective courses like financial math during the 11th and 12th grades.
Bridging the Research-Practice Gap: Why relying on "laboratory" research can hinder classroom reality. We discuss the necessity of pedagogical synthesis—taking the best of structured classroom management and blending it with conceptual inquiry—rather than strictly adhering to one "side" of pedagogical theory.
The Realities of PBL in Mathematics: While Project-Based Learning (PBL) is valuable, the hierarchical nature of math standards makes it difficult to implement in every unit. We discuss strategies for when to use PBL (e.g., specialized financial math courses) versus when to prioritize standards coverage and scaffolding.
Episode Highlights & Timecodes
[00:04:08] Background and Teaching Experience: Kristen shares their journey from finance into education via the Math for America program and their reflections on high-quality teacher preparation.
[00:11:29] Addressing Math Anxiety: Insights from Kristen's book, Cultivating Math Confidence, on disrupting the "not a math person" narrative.
[00:15:56] Math for the Real World: A discussion on why high-level math education is essential for developing transferable problem-solving and modeling skills.
[00:23:06] Rethinking Math Pathways: Why moving away from the traditional "Geometry Sandwich" and toward integrated math pathways supports better student engagement.
[00:29:09] The "Easter Egg" Pedagogical Model: How Kristen blends the structured "I do, we do, you do" explicit instruction model with inquiry-based, conceptual lessons.
[00:32:34] Influence of Illustrative Mathematics: The origin and philosophy of the problem-based curriculum designed to uncover mathematical meaning.
[00:44:04] Inquiry vs. Procedural Fluency: The "both and" approach—why students need conceptual inquiry and fluency in prerequisite procedures to succeed.
[00:51:37] The "Inquiry Sandwich" Methodology: A breakdown of Kristen's lesson structure: warm-up/skill-builder, inquiry experience, and concluding explicit instruction.
[01:01:34] The Challenges of PBL in Math: Why Project-Based Learning can be difficult to implement in math courses due to the hierarchical nature of standards.
[01:07:14] Closing & Resources: Where to find Cultivating Math Confidence and The Confidence Interval newsletter.

Drew Perkins talks with Ron Noble, Chief of Teacher Prep at the National Council on Teacher Quality (NCTQ) to discuss the "Transforming Teacher Prep" initiative. We explore why pre-service training often misses the mark and how prioritizing clinical practice, curriculum literacy, and the science of learning can fix it. Plus, Ron shares how NCTQ's new District Policy Pathfinder is bringing much-needed transparency to school district data.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
nctq.org
Job posting: Transforming Teacher Prep Project Lead
Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
Key Takeaways:
Bridging the Day-One Gap: Many current teacher preparation pathways—especially alternative programs—are too short and lack essential clinical practice, often leaving new teachers unprepared for the realities of managing a classroom.
Shifting to "Curriculum Literacy": Preparation programs should move away from the "build from scratch" ethos. Instead, they should train teachers to use High-Quality Instructional Materials (HQIM) by grounding them in cognitive science principles, such as cognitive load theory, which helps them adapt lessons effectively rather than viewing them as scripted.
The Power of Clinical Practice: Early, hands-on experiences like simulations or tutoring create vital feedback loops. These experiences allow candidates to apply coursework concepts immediately and force programs to adjust their training based on real-world performance.
Redefining Classroom Management: Effective management isn't just about behavioral tricks; it is closely linked to instruction. Poor behavior often stems from students being disengaged by non-challenging tasks, meaning robust, standards-aligned content is a key component of a well-managed classroom.
The Role of State Policy: States must take a more proactive role in reviewing and adjusting teacher preparation policies rather than deferring exclusively to national accreditors. Setting high-quality state content standards is a powerful lever to encourage districts toward better curricula.
Data-Driven Transparency: NCTQ launched the District Policy Pathfinder, a new tool that allows the public to query policy data—including salaries, evaluation procedures, and school day length—across more than 150 school districts, increasing transparency in the field.
Episode Highlights & Timecodes
08:09 – From NYC Teacher to NCTQ: Ron Noble shares their professional journey and how their experience as a middle school math teacher in New York City drives their commitment to improving teacher preparation.
09:55 – The "Too Short" Problem: Why many alternative teaching pathways fall short by lacking necessary clinical practice, leaving new teachers unprepared for the realities of the classroom.
13:52 – Transforming Teacher Prep: An overview of NCTQ's initiative aimed at building coherence between pre-service learning and the expectations of day-one district roles.
20:55 – Redefining Classroom Management: Understanding how behavioral issues are often rooted in disengagement, and why classroom management must be linked to instruction, not just behavior management techniques.
36:29 – Building Curriculum Literacy: Why teacher preparation programs should shift away from a "build-from-scratch" ethos and toward training teachers to adapt High-Quality Instructional Materials (HQIM).
47:52 – State Policy Levers: The role of state education agencies in setting high-quality standards and how state-level review processes can drive improvements in teacher preparation programs.
53:45 – Inquiry-Based Civics: Using the Massachusetts history and social science curriculum as a case study for how high-quality standards can support inquiry-based learning.
56:51 – Introducing the District Policy Pathfinder: A look at NCTQ's new tool that provides public transparency for policy data across more than 150 school districts.

Drew Perkins welcomes math teacher and author Michael Pershan to explore the history of CLT and how he thinks about applying Cognitive Load Theory in his math teaching.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
Key Takeaways:
Cognitive Load Theory as a Flexible Toolkit: Cognitive Load Theory is a context-dependent framework rather than a universal "silver bullet." Effective application requires adapting instruction to student proficiency—specifically accounting for the "Expertise Reversal Effect"—to ensure teaching methods remain calibrated to the learner's current stage.
The Procedural-Conceptual Synthesis: Procedural fluency and conceptual understanding are not competing forces but complementary pillars of learning. Similar to how a baseball player refines their swing through technical coaching, students need both automaticity to handle complex tasks and explicit principles to assign meaning, with these skills developing concurrently.
Prioritizing Classroom Reality over Academic Tribalism: Teachers need a pragmatic toolkit built for the "180-day reality" of the classroom, not just abstract pedagogical debates. Educators should be wary of over-applying narrow, isolated cognitive science findings to complex, holistic subjects and instead focus on whether research adequately maps the "whole territory" of daily instruction.
Moving Beyond False Dichotomies: Debates such as "memory versus thinking" often create unhelpful academic divisions. In practice, these terms describe the same process from different angles; long-term memory is the repository of learning, and active, deep thinking is the necessary vehicle for building it.
Episode Highlights & Timecodes
[00:07:34] Research Controversies: A candid discussion on the "You Cubed" project and the challenges of engaging in nuanced, critical dialogue with figures in the education field.
[00:18:24] The Nature of Theory: Exploring why theories in human-centered sciences are more difficult to define and pin down than those in "hard" sciences.
[00:23:15] From Critic to Proponent: How Michael moved from a skeptical stance on Cognitive Load Theory (CLT) to finding significant practical value in it through independent study and experimentation.
[00:30:58] The Reality of School Culture: Why Michael is skeptical about teacher preparation programs, arguing that school culture often overrides academic training.
[00:38:50] The "Political Coding" of Instruction: Examining why explicit instruction is increasingly viewed as "right-leaning" and why Michael critiques this tribalistic mentality as unhelpful.
[00:43:35] The 180-Day Reality: An argument for a practical "theory of worksheets" that prioritizes daily classroom management over abstract debates.
[00:47:47] The Expertise Reversal Effect: Why teaching methods must adapt to student proficiency, balancing productive struggle with direct instruction.
[01:05:15] Defining Mathematical Maturity: Breaking down the difference between "fast" procedural knowledge (automaticity) and "explicit" linguistic knowledge (principles).
[01:08:51] Procedural & Conceptual Interdependency: Why these shouldn't be taught separately; they act as "bumpers" for each other, similar to how a baseball player uses technical coaching to refine their swing.
[01:12:04] Memory vs. Thinking: Addressing the false dichotomy; why long-term memory is the repository of learning and thinking is the vehicle to build it.
[01:16:45] Over-Generalizing Cognitive Science: A critique of taking isolated findings (like "growth mindset") and over-applying them as universal solutions to complex, holistic subjects.