Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick and Mr. Luke Heintschel, headmaster of Coeur du Christ Academy, discuss the rest of ante-purgatory and then the first terrace--the purging of pride.
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The conversation explores the transition from Ante-Purgatory into the proper mountain of Purgatory and the first terrace dedicated to purging the sin of pride. Garlick describes this section as one of his favorites in the entire Purgatorio, praising Dante’s ability to provide a rich “liturgy” and spiritual library of resources for reshaping the soul into the beautiful image of Christ. The episode emphasizes Purgatorio as a positive map for sanctification and theosis, contrasting sharply with the Inferno’s exposure of sin’s ugliness.Guest Introduction and Classical Education Insights
Luke Heintschel shares his personal journey from evangelization and biblical theology into classical education, explaining how he came to see the liberal arts tradition—long cultivated by the Church—as the most effective means of making Catholicism relevant to contemporary young people. He describes his school’s mission of forming saints, scholars, and servants through the historic Catholic educational model. Deacon and Heintschel discuss the harmony of faith and reason, noting how reading great books alongside Scripture and theology reveals that the God who grants intellect is the same God who died on the cross. They highlight the value of using Dante’s Purgatorio in moral theology classes, where it serves not as a list of rules but as a vivid portrayal of transforming the heart’s disordered loves toward their divine end.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
09:02 Understanding Purgatorio: A Map for Spiritual Growth
15:17 Dante's Intercessory Prayer and Its Significance
24:13 The Role of Beatrice and the Nature of Beauty
34:53 Dante's Political Critique and the State of Italy
43:05 The Call to Higher Patriotism
53:44 Understanding Virtue: Natural vs. Theological
59:35 The Valley of the Kings: Political Failures and Redemption
01:15:02 Dante's Heroism and Divine Grace
01:19:41 The Three Steps to Purification
01:28:10 The Role of Humility in Purgatory
01:51:27 The Purpose of Purification
01:59:24 Contrappasso: The Nature of Punishment in Purgatory
02:04:44 Examples of Pride: Lessons from the Past
02:16:26 The Beatitudes and the Path to Humility
02:23:47 Eagerness to Ascend: The Transformation of the Soul
Moral Theology and the Purpose of Purgatorio
The hosts stress that moral theology is not merely about avoiding sin but about becoming beautiful like Christ through active configuration to His image. Purgatorio offers a lifelong guide for this ascent, presenting prayers, hymns, scriptural examples, and artistic visions tailored to remedy each vice. They critique modern reductions of ethics to a “negative list” of prohibitions, arguing that Dante invites readers to pursue positive virtue and interior change.
In Canto 6, the souls in Ante-Purgatory eagerly seek Dante’s prayers, illustrating the Catholic doctrine of intercession for the dead as a participation in Christ’s merits. Virgil explains that purgation is possible through the resurrection, and the episode includes a brief catechesis on the communion of saints across the Church Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant. Beatrice is presented as an icon of divine beauty and grace, with the...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo, the Warren Chair of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, discuss the Ante-Purgatory, the foot of Mount Purgatory (Cantos 1-5).
Check out our guide on Dante's Purgatorio (out soon!)
Visit Dr. Jason Baxter's website and use "Ascend" in the promo code for 20% off his Purgatorio audiobook.
Thanks for the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for their support!
The conversation with Dr. Prudlo and Deacon Garlick on Cantos 1–5 of Purgatorio opens with the dramatic shift from the despair of Inferno to the hope and refreshment of Purgatory.
In Canto 1, Dante and Virgil emerge from Hell onto the shores of Mount Purgatory at Easter dawn, where Dante humbly invokes Calliope, the Muse of epic poetry, signaling his project as “the Christian epic” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). They meet Cato the Younger, a pagan suicide saved by special grace, who embodies the four cardinal virtues and serves as Purgatory’s guardian. Prudlo emphasizes the shock: “Cato the pagan, the suicide is going to heaven. And we have got to confront that or we're going to miss so much of what Dante has to tell us here” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The ritual of washing with dew and girding with the humble reed contrasts the broken plants of the suicides in Hell and symbolizes the beginning of true humility and ascent.
Cantos 2–5 introduce the late-repentant souls and the mountain’s structure. In Canto 2, an angelic boat ferries souls singing “In exitu Israel de Aegypto,” a psalm of liberation that Prudlo calls “a multifaceted song” evoking Exodus, baptism, and community (Dr. Donald Prudlo). Casella’s song of Dante’s own poetry enchants the group until Cato rebukes their idleness.
Cantos 3–5 explore excommunicated sinners like Manfred (“even under a curse like mine, no one's ever so lost that eternal love cannot come back, as long as hope has any sprouts of green” – Manfred via transcript) and the slothful Belacqua, who banters with Dante like old friends. Prudlo highlights the power of last-minute mercy and intercession: “Mary is the last refuge of sinners” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The cantos teach that Purgatory is a place of communal hope, where grace reaches even the unlikely, and purification begins with humility, prayer, and rightly ordered love—setting the stage for the active ascent through the terraces.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dante's Purgatorio
04:42 The Importance of Reading Purgatorio
08:02 Themes of Emancipation and Freedom
10:57 The Role of Cato in Purgatorio
13:49 Cato's Significance and Political Implications
17:00 Cato as a Precursor to Christ
19:51 Dante's Literary Techniques and Inspirations
22:56 Contrasting Ulysses and Dante
25:36 Cato's Death and Its Symbolism
28:52 The Nature of Purgatory and Salvation
31:51 Cato's Virtues and Their Relevance
34:49 The Relationship Between Cato and Christ
37:48 Conclusion and Reflections on Purgatorio
50:03 Understanding Cato's Role in Purgatorio
52:43 The Heartbreaking Choice of Cato
54:39 Rituals and Purification in Purgatory
01:00:18 The Arrival at Purgatory
01:06:34 The Significance of Water in Salvation
01:12:09 Virgil's Role and the Nature of Guidance
01:24:57 Manfred: A Case of Late Repentance
01:29:38 The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Purgatory
01:34:00 Understanding Mount Purgatory and Its Significance
01:40:15 The Character of Belacqua and Themes...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dr. Jason Baxter and Dcn. Harrison Garlick come together to introduce Dante's Purgatorio and Dr. Baxter's new translation!
We are reading Dante's Purgatorio for Lent. Join us!
Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!
Check out our LIBRARY of written guides to the great books!
DISCOUNT: Check out Dr. Jason Baxter's website and enter "Ascend" to receive **20%** off the Purgatorio audiobook read by Dr. Baxter!
Check out Dr. Baxter's Substack article on his new translation.
And thank you to the Center of Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for promoting this reading of the Purgatorio!
Dr. Baxter first describes the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College as a fellowship program (Angelico Fellows) that immerses students in beauty across the arts, music, literature, and theology—through concerts, museums, and pilgrimages—to foster interiority and the conviction that “beauty can save the world.”
The conversation then contrasts Purgatorio with the Inferno: while the latter is dark, lurid, and focused on judgment, Purgatorio is a place of hope, mercy, transformation, and “eternal New Year’s resolutions,” where repentant souls engage in spiritual exercises to purify their tarnished mirrors, learn authentic love and prayer, and prepare for Paradise. Baxter likens the shift to moving from heavy metal to Schubert, emphasizing greenness, brightness, and unexpected mercy.
Baxter explains that his translation began as a personal quest for mastery—going word-by-word to internalize Dante like memorizing a piano piece—but evolved into a philosophy capturing Dante’s “fugue” of style: ascending, prolix syntax with lofty classical allusions layered over humble, earthy words that reflect Franciscan humility and incarnational Christian poetics. Examples include goats ruminating on the “foco d’amore” (fire of love) amid elevated star imagery, or Statius calling Virgil’s Aeneid “una mamma” (translated “mommy”).
He describes Purgatorio as spiritual surgery—painfully removing the soul’s “carcinogenic” elements through grace-filled cooperation—and a map for configuring to Christ beyond mere sin avoidance. Baxter advises first-time readers to pause at puzzling images or word choices, ask “why would Dante do that here?,” trust their instincts, and consider his audiobook for the text’s soundscape, while Deacon Garlick stresses the canticle’s role as a spiritual guide that mirrors one’s own maturation toward God.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
03:43 The Center for Beauty and Culture
05:40 Understanding Dante's Purgatorio
07:54 The Nature of Purgatorio
14:54 Dante the Pilgrim vs. Dante the Poet
19:32 The Spirituality of Translation
20:14 The Philosophy of Translation
30:02 Dante's Christian Poetics
34:22 Exploring Dante's Poetic Style
36:51 Juxtaposition in Dante's Imagery
41:42 The Concept of Spiritual Surgery
44:49 The Journey of Holiness
48:13 The Role of...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Justin Jackson host a Q&A on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. They explore major themes such as the role of femininity, the moral dilemmas faced by Gawain, and the significance of the girdle.
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Check out our episodes on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and our study guide!
Visit Professor Jackson's awesome SUBSTACK.
The conversation highlights Gawain's character development, the tension between chivalric ideals and Christian morality, and the Green Knight's role as a tempter. Through a detailed analysis, they uncover the layers of meaning within the poem, emphasizing the intentional tension crafted by the poet.
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guests
03:13 Teaching 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight'
06:34 The Role of Women in the Poem
12:27 The Tension Between Pagan and Christian Elements
21:57 Gawain's Moral Dilemmas and Compartmentalization
28:05 The Confession Scene and Its Implications
37:02 Confession and Contrition
40:56 The Green Knight's Dual Role
51:58 Chivalry, Cowardice, and the Girdle
01:02:50 Symbolism of Colors in Gawain
01:07:31 The Intensity of the Green Knight
01:08:36 Gawain's Confrontation and Internal Conflict
01:11:29 The Symbolism of the Green Girdle
01:17:24 The Ending: Bliss and Blunder
01:26:19 Final Thoughts on Gawain's Journey
Keywords
Sir Gawain, Green Knight, themes, femininity, chivalry, morality, confession, literature, medieval, analysis, Sir Gawain, Green Knight, chivalry, medieval literature, symbolism, courtly love, Morgan Le Fay, color symbolism, moral lessons, literary analysis, great books, philosophy, Catholic, Catholicism
Takeaways
The tension in the poem is intentional and significant.
Gawain's character is complex, showcasing both strengths and weaknesses.
The role of femininity is prominent and influential in the narrative.
The girdle symbolizes Gawain's internal conflict and moral struggles.
Gawain's confession scene raises important questions about sincerity and contrition.
The Green Knight serves as a tempter, challenging Gawain's virtues.
The poem explores the interplay between pagan and Christian ideals.
Gawain's journey reflects a maturation of character and understanding.
The hunting scenes parallel Gawain's temptations and moral choices.
The...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo explore the intricate relationship between Plato and St. Thomas Aquinas, examining how Aquinas's thought is influenced by Platonic philosophy while also being rooted in Aristotle.
We are reading the PURGATORIO for Lent!
Check out our LIBRARY OF GUIDES TO THE GREAT BOOKS.
See Dr. Prudlo's books on St. Thomas, administration, and more!
They discuss the nuances of Aquinas' understanding of universals, the nature of evil, and the significance of the body in Christian anthropology, highlighting the complexities of Aquinas's intellectual context and the historical development of these philosophical ideas.
They discuss how Aquinas synthesized various philosophical traditions, particularly in his understanding of existence and essence, the role of beauty, and the moral implications of his metaphysics. The dialogue also touches on the early church's reception (or rejection) of Aristotle, the influence of Islamic philosophy, and the evolution of Aquinas' thought throughout his life.
Ultimately, the conversation highlights the richness of Aquinas' philosophy and its relevance to contemporary discussions on faith and reason.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast
03:11 Experiencing the Papal Conclave
06:34 Plato and Aquinas: A Complex Relationship
12:43 Aquinas' Intellectual Evolution
17:02 The Importance of Reading the Great Books
24:25 Platonic Thought in Aquinas' Philosophy
34:48 The Quest for Certitude in Philosophy
37:20 Realism and the Nature of Universals
40:56 Mind-Body Dualism and the Significance of the Body
47:36 The Reception of Aristotle in Early Christianity
54:09 The Distinction Between Essence and Existence
01:04:53 The Role of Beauty in Aquinas' Philosophy
01:06:38 Exploring Beauty in Philosophy
01:11:23 The Role of Beauty in St. Thomas Aquinas
01:13:44 The Ladder of Love and Its Implications
01:19:18 Essence and Existence in Thomistic Thought
01:21:41 The Hierarchy of Being and Divine Wisdom
01:25:22 The Evolution of Aquinas' Thought
01:27:35 Understanding Aquinas Through His Influences
01:30:17 Final Thoughts on Faith and Reason
Takeaways
Aquinas is often mischaracterized as purely Aristotelian.
The relationship between Plato and Aristotle is more complex (and harmonious) than often portrayed.
Aquinas' thought is enriched by both Platonic and Aristotelian influences.
Evil is understood as a privation of the good in Aquinas's philosophy.
Aquinas' understanding of universals differs from both Plato and Aristotle.
The concept of exitus and reditus is a key Neoplatonic idea in Aquinas.
The mind-body dualism presents challenges for Christian thought.
Aquinas retained Platonic emphasis on the...