Homebrewed Christianity

What happens when the person preaching on Sunday morning believes something completely different than the folks sitting in the pews? Well friends, that's exactly what we're digging into today. My buddy Ryan Burge brought the graphs—including some brand new data that hasn't even dropped on his Substack yet—and let me tell you, it's a real deal predicament for Mainline Protestantism. Turns out about 60-70% of mainline clergy identify as liberal, but only about 25% of the people in the pews do. That's not a gap, that's a canyon. We're talking ELCA, UCC, PCUSA, Episcopalians—the whole crew. And look, Ryan and I are both mainline folks, so we're not throwing rocks across the river here. We're throwing rocks at our own faces. We get into why this disconnect exists, what the "silver tsunami" of aging Boomers means for these congregations, and why young progressive folks aren't joining our churches even though we thought we built them a home. It's honest, it's a little uncomfortable, and yeah, we also talk about Zion Williamson and Christmas movies because that's just how we roll. If you want to go deeper on where American religion is headed, join me and Ryan along with Tony Jones for our upcoming class The Rise of the Nones this January at www.AmericanNones.com. Come on. You can WATCH the conversation and see the graphs on YouTube Dr. Ryan Burge is a professor of practice at the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University in St. Louis. He is the author or co-author of four books including The Nones, The American Religious Landscape, and The Great Dechurching. He has written for the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and POLITICO. He has also appeared on 60 Minutes, where Anderson Cooper called him, “one of the leading data analysts of religion and politics in the United States.” Previous Visits from Ryan Burge ⁠Gen Z Revival?: The Next Chapter in American Religious Life⁠ The 2024 Election & Religion Post-Mortem Distrust & Denominations Trust, Religion, & a Functioning Democracy What it’s like to close a church The Future of Christian Education & Ministry in Charts The Sky is Falling & the Charts are Popping! Graphs about Religion & Politics w/ Spicy Banter a Year in Religion (in Graphs) Evangelical Jews, Educated Church-Goers, & other bits of dizzying data 5 Religion Graphs w/ a side of Hot Takes Myths about Religion & Politics Join us at Theology Beer Camp, October 8-10, in Kansas City!⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠UPCOMING ONLINE CLASS: The Rise of the Nones⁠⁠ One-third of Americans now claim no religious affiliation. That's 100 million people.  But here's what most church leaders get wrong: they're not all the same. Some still believe in God. Some are actively searching. Some are quietly indifferent. Some think religion is harmful.  Ryan Burge & Tony Jones have conducted the first large-scale survey of American "Nones", which reveals 4 distinct categories—each requiring a different approach. Understanding the difference could transform everything from your ministry to your own spiritual quest. ⁠⁠Get info & join the donation-based class (including 0) here.⁠⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 50 classes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am SO excited about this episode. I got to sit down with Rian Johnson to talk about Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery, and honestly? This might be my favorite conversation I’ve had all year. Not just because it’s a blast of a film (which it absolutely is), but because Rian brought so much theological depth and personal wrestling to this project. I’m always looking for that sweet spot where great storytelling meets profound questions about faith, power, community, and what it means to be human. This film? It’s the jackpot. I literally told Rian I now have an excuse to show a movie I genuinely enjoy in class and call it “movie day.” You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube The Film: Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery is now streaming on Netflix. Watch it. It’s spectacular. Rian Johnson is an acclaimed writer-director best known for creating the Knives Out mystery franchise, including Knives Out (2019), Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery (2022), and Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery (2025). His work is characterized by genre-bending storytelling that weaves together intricate plots with deep thematic exploration. Johnson’s other notable films include Brick (2005), a neo-noir set in a high school; Looper (2012), a science fiction thriller; and Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017). He also directed several critically acclaimed episodes of Breaking Bad, including the Emmy-winning “Ozymandias.” Raised in the evangelical church, Johnson draws on his formative religious experiences to explore themes of grace, moral complexity, and the tension between reason and faith in his work. He cites influences ranging from G.K. Chesterton’s Father Brown mysteries to Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell’s work on storytelling and myth. Known for his meticulous approach to storytelling—he still writes his screenplays longhand in notebooks—Johnson creates films that function as both wildly entertaining genre exercises and thoughtful examinations of contemporary moral and social questions. ⁠Join us at Theology Beer Camp, October 8-10, in Kansas City!⁠⁠ ⁠UPCOMING ONLINE CLASS: The Rise of the Nones⁠ One-third of Americans now claim no religious affiliation. That's 100 million people.  But here's what most church leaders get wrong: they're not all the same. Some still believe in God. Some are actively searching. Some are quietly indifferent. Some think religion is harmful.  Ryan Burge & Tony Jones have conducted the first large-scale survey of American "Nones", which reveals 4 distinct categories—each requiring a different approach. Understanding the difference could transform everything from your ministry to your own spiritual quest. ⁠Get info & join the donation-based class (including 0) here.⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 50 classes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Look, we all have that person in our life who won’t stop talking about Motlmann or keeps “accidentally” bringing up liberation theology at Thanksgiving. Maybe that person is you. No judgment. I’m right there with you. That’s why I brought in my friend Rev. Dr. Thomas Hermans-Webster, acquisitions editor at Orbis Books, to help us figure out what books belong under the tree this year. We each picked 10 books that will make your theology nerd feel seen, challenged, and deeply grateful you know them so well. HERE’S THE GOOD NEWS: Orbis put the whole collection on sale. Use code ZESTY at checkout and get 30% off. The code is good through the 12 days of Christmas and all the way to Mardi Gras—we’re being liturgical about this. 🎁 Shop the full collection here You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube ⁠Join us at Theology Beer Camp, October 8-10, in Kansas City!⁠ UPCOMING ONLINE CLASS: The Rise of the Nones One-third of Americans now claim no religious affiliation. That's 100 million people.  But here's what most church leaders get wrong: they're not all the same. Some still believe in God. Some are actively searching. Some are quietly indifferent. Some think religion is harmful.  Ryan Burge & Tony Jones have conducted the first large-scale survey of American "Nones", which reveals 4 distinct categories—each requiring a different approach. Understanding the difference could transform everything from your ministry to your own spiritual quest. Get info & join the donation-based class (including 0) here. ⁠ ONLINE ADVENT CLASS w/ Diana Butler Bass⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join us for a transformative four-week Advent journey exploring how the four gospels speak their own revolutionary word against empire—both in their ancient context under Roman occupation and for our contemporary world shaped by capitalism, militarism, and nationalism.  This course invites you into an alternative calendar and rhythm. We'll discover how these ancient texts of resistance offer wisdom for our own moment of political turmoil, economic inequality, and ecological crisis. This class is donation-based, including 0. You can sign-up at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.HomebrewedClasses.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 50 classes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So here's what we're wrestling with in this episode: What if economics isn't just a topic theology comments on, but actually the bigger framework that shapes what's theologically possible? That's the question that sent Brian McLaren searching, and it's what led him—and us—to the Japanese philosopher Kojin Karatani and his game-changing framework about modes of exchange laid out in his book, The Structure of World History We're talking about how nation, state, and capital work together as these integrated energies, and how if you try to critique just one without seeing the others, you end up reproducing the very thing you're trying to escape. The biblical narrative becomes this fascinating case study—starting with naked hunter-gatherers in a garden with no religion, state, or market, and ending with the New Jerusalem coming down with no need for a temple. And maybe, just maybe, understanding these modes of exchange—the symbolic, the coercive, the economic—helps us see what kind of future we're actually moving toward. It's the kind of conversation that makes you realize the church's learned ignorance about economics might be the source of its greatest spiritual crisis, and you know what? That's worth paying attention to. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube You can find the YouTube playlist of videos outlining Karatani’s work here. Joining me for this conversation is... Guillermo Bervejillo is an economic geographer and community organizer who bridges critical theory and social movement practice. If you missed our previous conversation, where we introduced Karatani’s work check it out - Kojin Karatani’s The Structure of World History. Brian D. McLaren is an author, speaker, activist, and public theologian. Don’t miss his AMAZING new book, The Last Voyage.  Dawson Allen is the movement manager at the Center for Action & Contemplation.  Join us at Theology Beer Camp, October 8-10, in Kansas City! ONLINE ADVENT CLASS w/ Diana Butler Bass⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join us for a transformative four-week Advent journey exploring how the four gospels speak their own revolutionary word against empire—both in their ancient context under Roman occupation and for our contemporary world shaped by capitalism, militarism, and nationalism.  This course invites you into an alternative calendar and rhythm. We'll discover how these ancient texts of resistance offer wisdom for our own moment of political turmoil, economic inequality, and ecological crisis. This class is donation-based, including 0. You can sign-up at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.HomebrewedClasses.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 50 classes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What is up, Theology Nerds! This one's a banger. At Theology Beer Camp 2025, I got to sit down with an EPIC braintrust of Bonhoeffer scholars—Jeff Pugh, Lori Brandt Hale, Reggie Williams, and Andy Root—for a panel that went deep into Dietrich's life, his communities, and why his witness matters more now than ever. We wrestled with how Bonhoeffer's critique of stupidity as a sociological force, his understanding of Christ as the center that opens us to the other, and his call to prayer and righteous action speak directly into our current moment of rising nationalism and the masquerade of evil. These scholars didn't flinch from the hard questions: What do we do when the church has failed? How do we resist without contempt? And what does a faithful community look like when you might be hiding people in your house? If this conversation lights a fire in your theological belly, then you need to be with us at Theology Beer Camp 2026—October 8-10th in Kansas City. Head over here and grab those pre-sale tickets. This is what we do: beer, community, and theology that matters. Come join us. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube ONLINE ADVENT CLASS w/ Diana Butler Bass⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join us for a transformative four-week Advent journey exploring how the four gospels speak their own revolutionary word against empire—both in their ancient context under Roman occupation and for our contemporary world shaped by capitalism, militarism, and nationalism.  This course invites you into an alternative calendar and rhythm. We'll discover how these ancient texts of resistance offer wisdom for our own moment of political turmoil, economic inequality, and ecological crisis. This class is donation-based, including 0. You can sign-up at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.HomebrewedClasses.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ This podcast is a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠production. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Theology Nerd Throwdown⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack - Process This!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get instant access to over 50 classes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.TheologyClass.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow the podcast, drop a review⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, send ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠feedback/questions⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or become a ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠member of the HBC Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices