The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast

This conversation features Rob Thain Smith — author of Four and Twenty Blackbirds: The Trial of Paul Petrie, the Beginning of the End of Mars Hill Church. We discuss the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, led by controversial pastor Mark Driscoll. Rob shares his first-hand experience as a long-time member who was in the process of becoming an elder when the church's governance crisis began.
The central conflict we explore is the 2007 bylaw changes at Mars Hill that consolidated power away from a plurality of 24 elders and into Driscoll's hands. Rob recounts the controversial trial of elder Paul Petrie, who was fired and put through a deeply flawed, unjust internal process for minor infractions — largely because he posed a threat to Driscoll's growing authority.
Rob argues that the real failure of Mars Hill was not Driscoll alone, but the 24 elders who, despite knowing the trial was wrong, unanimously voted against Petrie out of fear and self-interest. The conversation also covers the church's culture of shunning, Driscoll's continued platform at his Arizona church Trinity, and Rob's motivation for writing the book — to offer a more nuanced, leadership-focused account than the widely listened-to Christianity Today podcast series about Mars Hill.
Follow this link for more information about Four and Twenty Blackbirds!
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This week's episode features a conversation with Paule Patterson — a former pastor turned Christian mystic and recovering alcoholic — to trace the arc of his remarkable personal journey. 
Paule shares how his struggles with addiction, the collapse of his ministry in Missoula, Montana, and how multiple stints in rehab ultimately forced him to confront the deeper fractures in his faith, his identity, and his sense of self.
Rather than walking away from spirituality entirely, Paule found that sobriety, AA, psychology, and a voracious study of both scripture and philosophy led him toward a richer, more honest relationship with the divine. 

In the second half, our conversation broadens out into a wide-ranging discussion about the Western church's tendency to institutionalize and rigidify belief — from the Reformation to the present-day Christian nationalist movement in America. 
We draw on such diverse elements as church history, René Girard's mimetic theory, Taoism, Buddhist mindfulness, and the work of Richard Rohr to argue that Christianity was always meant to be a living, transformative path rather than a doctrinal checklist.  

Paule describes himself today as a Christian mystic, running a small business while quietly pursuing his passion project of helping others navigate deconstruction with intellectual honesty and spiritual openness. 
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In this episode, I speak with Beth Granger, author of Born and Razed: Surviving the Cult Was Only Half the Battle. Beth shares her extraordinary story of growing up as a staff kid inside Grenville Christian College in Brockville, Ontario — a boarding school secretly operating as a cult under the influence of the Community of Jesus, a commune based in Cape Cod.
She describes the psychological control, public shaming sessions, draconian discipline, and spy networks that defined life inside the institution, drawing striking parallels between cult tactics and the dynamics of modern political movements.
Our conversation also covers Beth's long journey toward healing after leaving at age 31, including her involvement in a landmark lawsuit that became the first historical abuse case to win at trial in Canada. She reflects on the layers of recovery that followed: therapy, writing her memoir, and the validating experience of having her story taken seriously in a court of law.
The episode closes with a discussion of how the Community of Jesus continues to operate today--now aligned with Christian nationalist ideology--and why Beth wrote her book: to sound the alarm about the lasting, sometimes irreparable damage that weaponized, high-control religion can inflict.
For more information on the book, check out Beth's site.
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Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com

In this week's episode, I chat with Morgan Piercy, a Licensed Professional Counselor based in Kansas. She specializes in helping adults deconstruct from evangelicalism and Christian nationalism through a neurodiversity-affirming lens.
Together we explore the clinical reality of Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) — why it goes far deeper than the commonly used term "church hurt" — and how patriarchal church structures, purity culture, and high-control theology can create lasting psychological harm.
We also draw on our personal experiences with religious deconstruction, sharing candid reflections on growing up in fundamentalist and charismatic traditions, the fear-based theology of hell and the rapture, and the complex journey toward reclaiming identity outside the church.
Morgan also discusses the therapeutic tools she uses with clients, including Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), to help people reconnect with their authentic values after leaving high-control religious environments.
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In this week's episode, I finally had the chance to interview investigative journalist Gareth Gore about his book Opus: The Cult of Dark Money, Human Trafficking, and Right-Wing Conspiracy Within the Catholic Church. Gore explains how he stumbled onto the story while investigating the 2017 collapse of Spain's Banco Popular, only to discover the bank had been covertly controlled by Opus Dei for decades — serving as its primary financial engine and funneling hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of dollars into the organization worldwide.
Our conversation traces Opus Dei's origins in 1920s Spain under founder Josemaría Escrivá, its symbiotic relationship with the Franco regime, and its evolution into a secretive, elitist global network operating in 70 countries. Gore details how the organization targets society's elite — law students, politicians, judges — to advance a conservative Catholic agenda, including its deep ties to figures like Bill Barr, Leonard Leo, and the conservative takeover of the U.S. Supreme Court.
We also expose the darker side of Opus Dei: cult-like control over members, psychological abuse, and criminal charges filed in Argentina for the enslavement and human trafficking of women recruited as "assistant numeraries" to serve in Opus Dei centers around the world.
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Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com