The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast

Author Meg Calvin joins me on the podcast to share her journey from preaching at age 13 in the Methodist church to leaving full-time ministry in 2018. She reflects on how people-pleasing and unhealed childhood wounds drove her pastoral work, and we commiserate about the dysfunctional dynamics of church leadership—pedestals, underpayment, and unqualified boards blocking vision.
After leaving ministry, Meg spent eight years exploring mysticism and intuitive development, which culminated in a profound encounter with Jesus that led her back to church—this time integrating her mystical gifts alongside her faith. She now coaches spiritual leaders in writing their books and has just released her debut novel entitled There, He Holds Her.
Find a copy of Meg's book here on Amazon!
Become a part of The Dismantling Doctrine Patreon Community
Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com

In this week's episode, I welcome back a returning guest and good friend, Canadian author and former fundamentalist Christian, Janice Selbie. We discuss her upcoming book, The Guru Gene: From Blind Faith to Clear Thinking in an Age of Influence, dropping at the end of August.  
We explore why intelligent, educated people are just as susceptible to cults, cons, and high-control groups as anyone else. To explain this, we touch on cognitive biases like pareidolia and apophenia, the role of certainty over accuracy, echo chambers, and cult dynamics evident in religion, politics (including MAGA and Trump-worship), and beyond.  
Drawing on our personal deconversion experiences, we also discuss the destabilizing nature of deconstruction, the importance of community both within and after leaving high-demand groups, and practical tools—like Socratic questioning, intellectual humility, and tolerating uncertainty—for resisting manipulation and helping others find their way out. For those who have left a cult or high-control religious group, this conversation will empower you both to discover and rebuild your authentic self. 
Religious Trauma Syndrome Coaching, Workshop & Support Group | Divorcing Religion 
Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community at this link!
Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com

This week's conversation features an interview with Josh Foster, a former missionary kid turned licensed therapist who specializes in helping people recover from religious trauma. Josh recounts how his life changed dramatically at age five when his parents converted to conservative evangelicalism, leading the family to give away all their possessions and spend nearly five years living on Operation Mobilization's missionary ships sailing through Europe and Scandinavia.  
Growing up among missionaries, handing out gospel tracts on the streets of New York and London, and being educated through field trips to historical sites gave Josh a uniquely global perspective — one that would later make it impossible for him to fit comfortably into American evangelical culture when the family returned to the States. 
The conversation then shifts to Josh's long and painful journey out of the faith, a process that took over two decades despite his growing disillusionment. After spending 23 years in ministry — including a lengthy stint with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship staffing college campuses — Josh began asking "what if" questions after encountering colleagues who were devout Christians yet voted Democrat, and after leading students through rigorous inductive Bible study that he couldn't reconcile with what he heard in American churches.  
He eventually left ministry, retrained as a therapist at age 41, and now uses narrative therapy to help others who have exited religious systems — guiding them to reframe their life stories, externalize their problems, and build new tools for living outside the guardrails of the belief systems that shaped them.
Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community!
Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com

This conversation features Rob Thain Smith — author of Four and Twenty Blackbirds: The Trial of Paul Petry, the Beginning of the End of Mars Hill Church. We discuss the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, led by controversial pastor Mark Driscoll. Rob shares his first-hand experience as a long-time member who was in the process of becoming an elder when the church's governance crisis began.
The central conflict we explore is the 2007 bylaw changes at Mars Hill that consolidated power away from a plurality of 24 elders and into Driscoll's hands. Rob recounts the controversial trial of elder Paul Petry, who was fired and put through a deeply flawed, unjust internal process for minor infractions — largely because he posed a threat to Driscoll's growing authority.
Rob argues that the real failure of Mars Hill was not Driscoll alone, but the 24 elders who, despite knowing the trial was wrong, unanimously voted against Petry out of fear and self-interest. The conversation also covers the church's culture of shunning, Driscoll's continued platform at his Arizona church Trinity, and Rob's motivation for writing the book — to offer a more nuanced, leadership-focused account than the widely listened-to Christianity Today podcast series about Mars Hill.
Follow this link for more information about Four and Twenty Blackbirds!
Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community!
Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com

This week's episode features a conversation with Paule Patterson — a former pastor turned Christian mystic and recovering alcoholic — to trace the arc of his remarkable personal journey. 
Paule shares how his struggles with addiction, the collapse of his ministry in Missoula, Montana, and how multiple stints in rehab ultimately forced him to confront the deeper fractures in his faith, his identity, and his sense of self.
Rather than walking away from spirituality entirely, Paule found that sobriety, AA, psychology, and a voracious study of both scripture and philosophy led him toward a richer, more honest relationship with the divine. 

In the second half, our conversation broadens out into a wide-ranging discussion about the Western church's tendency to institutionalize and rigidify belief — from the Reformation to the present-day Christian nationalist movement in America. 
We draw on such diverse elements as church history, René Girard's mimetic theory, Taoism, Buddhist mindfulness, and the work of Richard Rohr to argue that Christianity was always meant to be a living, transformative path rather than a doctrinal checklist.  

Paule describes himself today as a Christian mystic, running a small business while quietly pursuing his passion project of helping others navigate deconstruction with intellectual honesty and spiritual openness. 
Join The Dismantling Doctrine Podcast Patreon Community and help support the show!
Email: dismantlingdoctrine@gmail.com