More Good Drinks - Industry Podcast

Is this just a marketing gimmick? Absolutely not. When two Americans wandered into the Pōkeno distillery on their way back from Hobbiton and asked whether Matt Johns wanted to bottle a whisky in Middle-earth, he assumed they weren’t serious. But they absolutely were: a US creative agency holding the world’s only spirits licence for the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films — a licence so tightly held that even Hobbiton can’t sell you a bottle of spirits.
Eighteen months later, Ringbearer is the official Lord of the Rings 25th Anniversary Edition, and this episode is the story of how it came together and what you’ll taste if you purchase a bottle. Matt walks through the means test he ran the deal through (”we’re not a marketing company”), why Pōkeno insisted on controlling commercialisation, route to market and price, and how the whisky itself carries Middle-earth: mānuka honey casks (barrels lent to a local honey company for barrel-aged mānuka honey, and casks seasoned in-house with honey and new-make spirit) alongside full-maturation muscat, virgin oak and first-fill bourbon. Fifty blending attempts over six days.
Tash opens the first pour on camera — no preview — and finds a chewy, textural whisky that extends from Pōkeno’s fruit-forward house style, finishing like a hot toddy. Plus: elevenses at the distillery, and a tease about mānuka-smoked malt that suggests this is only the beginning.
Ringbearer launched today at $229 — priced to be opened, not just collected.
Topic breakdown
* 00:01 — Introduction: the 25th anniversary Lord of the Rings edition, Ringbearer
* 00:34 — How it started: a distillery visit on the way back from Hobbiton
* 01:53 — “We’re not a marketing company”: the resistance, and the hobbit costume he won’t wear
* 02:30 — The licence nobody else has: Warner Brothers, a Swedish rights holder, and why Hobbiton can’t sell spirits
* 03:21 — The means test: creative, innovative, true to culture and climate — and no $800 collector’s bottle
* 04:19 — Keeping control: commercialisation, route to market and pricing stay in-house
* 04:47 — Discovering the fandom: Gandalf’s pipe, Sting, and 650,000 Hobbiton visitors a year
* 05:45 — Designing the whisky: strength of the Fellowship, virgin oak, nine personalities
* 07:02 — The mānuka honey idea: New Zealand’s most famous ingredient, and why you can’t just flavour whisky
* 07:37 — Building the casks: barrel-aged honey with a local honey company, heating barrels to drain them, seasoning casks in-house
* 08:31 — Small percentage, big impact: why more than 5–6% honey cask overwhelms the blend
* 08:54 — Unboxing: the leather-textured box and the map of Middle-earth
* 09:59 — The cask bill: mānuka honey, full-maturation muscat, first-fill bourbon — and why mānuka honey isn’t actually sweet
* 10:58 — Six days, fifty blending attempts
* 11:16 — Tasting: citrus and tropical fruit, herbal honey notes, robust virgin oak mid-palate, hot toddy finish
* 12:19 — The texture mystery: chewy and viscous despite standard filtration
* 13:34 — The Liquorland test: 16 of 20 pre-orders from people who couldn’t care less about Lord of the Rings
* 14:21 — Mānuka maturing as an ingredient: the next step on from a mead cask
* 15:06 — Watch this space: mānuka honey casks meet mānuka-smoked malt
* 16:37 — What didn’t work: fifteen cask types on the bench and the amontillado that failed
* 17:25 — Where to find it: NZ online and selected Liquorlands from 7 August, Australia via The Whisky Club, US to follow, Auckland Airport duty free
* 18:11 — Elevenses at the distillery, 8 August — Matt’s been reading the books
Episode details
* Guest: Matt Johns, Pōkeno Whisky Co
* Release: Ringbearer, Lord of the Rings 25th Anniversary Edition — $229,
* Availability: Pōkeno Whisky online, selected Liquorlands, Auckland Airport duty free; Australia via The Whisky Club (ballot);


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It's been over thirty years since Bill Lark talked Canberra into overturning a distilling ban that had stood since the 1830s, and in that time Tasmanian whisky has gone from legal curiosity to the closest thing Australasia has to a regional appellation. And there's a tight knit community of distillers who have built a whisky destination and profile to envy.
Robbie Gilligan of Derwent Distillery joins me to talk about how that valley shapes what ends up in the glass — rainwater in the production line, recycled packaging out the door, and the harder question underneath it all: how a category this young convinces the world it deserves to stand on its own, rather than as a footnote to Scotland. We also get into what Australian and New Zealand whisky owe each other as they each make that case.


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The thing about Robbie Gilligan, is that it’s never just a quick chat. So over a dram of his outstanding Botrytis Cask, we unpack his proper origin story: a chance meeting on the Gold Coast, a Burns Night haggis in Hobart, and a walk-up introduction to Bill Lark that ended with a job offer.
From there, the conversation moves through Robbie’s apprenticeship at Lark, the grain-to-glass years at Redlands (later Old Kempton), and the batch of botrytis casks nobody else wanted that became his signature release — the one Tash brought home from her last Tasmania trip and now uses as her benchmark for the style. They get properly into the science of it too: why a wine barrel behaves nothing like a spirit barrel, what “the Jerry” (the fog rolling off the mountain behind Derwent’s bond store) is actually doing to alcohol content day to day, and why Robbie thinks the 80/20 barrel-versus-spirit flavour argument has always been the wrong argument.
There’s a proper detour into the history most drinkers don’t know: Tasmania and the mainland states issued the first commercial distilling licences in the English-speaking world under the 1823 Excise Act — years ahead of most of what’s now considered “heritage” Scotch — before Westminster shut the whole industry down in 1838 to protect export sales back home. Robbie picks up that thread as a founding-brand story for Derwent Distillery, named for the second licence ever granted in Tasmania.
Robbie is one of the third-wave of Tasmanian whiskymakers now. Someone who apprenticed and has worked in some of Tassie’s most well regarded brands and is now elevating the category, building on top of everything he’s learned along the way. Robbie’s take on second and third-fill barrels, sustainability certification, and why he thinks Australia and New Zealand deserve their own category on the world stage rounds it out.
Be sure to come back for Pt.2, as we go further into an industry that’s finding it’s legs and building on history.
In this episode:
* How a Burns Night haggis and a walk-up meeting with Bill Lark changed the course of Robbie’s life
* Grain-to-glass distilling at Redlands/Old Kempton, and what “Team Red” learned the hard way
* The Botrytis Cask release: why nobody was using botrytis barrels for whisky, and what nearly went wrong
* Texture and mouthfeel as the real signature of a spirit, not tasting-note flavour lists
* “The Jerry”: how daily fog cycles at Derwent’s site are doing the maturation work usually credited to “terroir”
* Tasmania’s forgotten first: the 1823 Excise Act, the world’s earliest commercial distilling licences, and the 1838 shutdown
* Robbie’s case for Australia and New Zealand as their own recognised whisky region
* 100% recycled glass, rainwater, solar power, and winning Australia’s Clean Conscience sustainability award two years running


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You need to know that in a time of calamitous headlines, it’s important to celebrate the milestones. And Hawthorn Lounge is just that. Originally meant to be a slow-burner of a pop-up (let’s build it for a few years, sell it and buy a house) it’s a Wellington institution that defies the rules of evolution by remaining exactly the same but always relevant. This month celebrates 20 years since Hawthorn Lounge opened with a backbar stock from the 2 of the McKenzie brothers’ home bars (yes, those McKenzie brothers). Not only is Justin still running Hawthorn all these years later, but he’s also pragmatic and political when it comes to what it takes (and takes) to run a small bar in Wellington, New Zealand these days. Don’t misunderstand me. He’s one of the most proactive bar owners in the city and there’s plenty to unpack. Join us as Justin McKenzie from Hawthorn Lounge shares the story of 20 years of building a legendary Wellington bar. Discover his philosophies on hospitality, staff culture, pricing strategies, and the importance of maintaining tradition amidst industry changes.
Main Topics:
* The journey of Hawthorn Lounge from inception to 20-year milestone
* The art of creating a consistent customer experience and staff culture
* Challenges of pricing, licensing, and industry economics over two decades
* The significance of authenticity, storytelling, and community in hospitality
* Adapting to industry shifts and maintaining longevity in a competitive market
In this episode:
* Justin recounts how the bar was originally intended as a two-year project, which turned into a 20-year journey
* The influence of family, nostalgia, and storytelling on Hawthorn’s unique brand
* How Hawthorn maintains its essence through staff engagement and careful control
* The impact of industry trends, licensing laws, and economic pressures
* Practical advice for small operators on long-term sustainability
* Justin’s reflections on the importance of responsible service, pricing models, and community engagement
Timestamps:00:00 - Celebrating Hawthorn’s 20-year journey02:13 - The original concept and early ambitions04:07 - The importance of atmosphere and storytelling05:47 - Consistency in design and staff approach07:28 - How staff are selected and cultivated09:25 - Responsible service measures and customer care11:00 - The qualities of successful Hawthorn staff15:01 - Industry challenges over recent decades16:10 - Adjusting to economic shifts and costs20:24 - Industry history: Wellington’s iconic venues23:10 - Industry regulation and licensing issues26:49 - Costs, waste culture, and sustainability30:57 - Menu innovation, iconic drinks, and cocktail evolution37:13 - Pricing strategies and economic sustainability44:13 - Industry trends, gentrification, and community role50:55 - The future of hospitality and staying authentic55:14 - Origins of signature spirits and collaborations58:48 - Nostalgia, storytelling, and creating memorable environments66:39 - The importance of authenticity in customer experience70:32 - Community involvement and industry advocacy74:16 - The essence of Hawthorn’s culture and tradition77:48 - The joy of crafting perfect drinks and staff enthusiasm78:07 - Closing thoughts and toast to continued success


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The Great New Zealand Toastie Takeover is back for its ninth year, and from 24 June until 5 August, 200-odd venues from Paihia to Dunedin will be arguing their case for the country’s best toasted sandwich. There’s whitebait in there this year. Veal. Prawns. Raclette. Somebody has gone paneer. It is, as always, an exercise in seeing how far a grilled cheese can be pushed before it stops being a grilled cheese.
But if you actually want to understand what makes a Toastie Takeover entry work, don’t start with the sandwich. Start with the drinks match - exactly what will balance all that cheese and acidity?
Shining Peak Brewing usually enters the competition always as a brewery first: toastie on one side of the pairing, beer suggestion on the other. This year they’ve gone one further, building a full drink to match rather than just a suggestion, and the drink might be the more interesting creation of the two.
A brewery that thinks in matches, not menus
Shining Peak’s whole operation celebrates pairing. Every beer comes with a suggested food match as standard, which head brewer and co-founder Jesse Sigurdsson says has been core to the place since it opened. It’s partly practical — a genuinely enormous range of beer styles and flavours gives you far more to play with than the traditional wine list — and partly a deliberate play for people who wouldn’t otherwise order a beer. “It’s trying to capture people from all walks of life,” Sigurdsson told me on More Good Drinks this week, not just the beer-drinking crowd that would find the brewery anyway.
The toastie itself leans hard into that pairing instinct rather than sitting on the sidelines of it. It’s built on pickle-studded bread, layered with smoked beef and smoked cheddar, caramelised sweet onion and pickle relish, finished with pickle aioli and served alongside a beef consommé for dipping — a nod to the traditional beef dip. Sigurdsson tried for the first time in Vancouver last year and has become a fan of the richness and depth of flavour it delivers.
Why there’s a margarita involved at all
The brief to the bar team was simple: everyone online is mixing pickle juice into Coke and Pepsi, there’s clearly an appetite for pickle-forward drinking right now, so what happens if we take that seriously? Restaurant and bar manager Luke landed on a margarita almost immediately (sorry cola & pickle, this is not your time to shine) — tequila, triple sec, lemon juice, McClure’s sweet and spicy pickle juice, rimmed with pickle and chilli salt — reasoning that a margarita’s citrus-forward brightness was already halfway to pickle territory.
It’s a good instinct. Pickle brine and a well-made margarita are chasing the same thing: a clean, high-acid hit that resets your palate rather than filling it up. Put it next to a toastie that’s rich with smoked beef, caramelised onion and a consommé dip, and the drink is playing a key role in delicious balance and leaving you begging for more, instead of bloated and full.
Sigurdsson’s own explanation of what makes a beer work with food doubles as a pretty precise account of why this pairing succeeds: it comes down to balance, and to matching texture as much as flavour. A rich, fatty dish wants something with genuine acid cut, he says, in the same way a bitter IPA can work brilliantly against pork belly. The margarita’s job here isn’t to complement the toastie quietly. It’s to argue with it a little, in exactly the way a good pairing should.
There’s experience and passion behind the philosophy and execution. Sigurdsson has been brewing for close on fifteen years, starting out scrubbing floors and cleaning kegs at Whitecliffs Brewery north of New Plymouth in exchange for the chance to learn. Fifteen years later, his conversation keeps coming back to drinkability and inviting people into a great beer experience the same way chefs develop tasting menus. It also fits a brewery that’s built its identity on very local, very specific storytelling — beers named for Taranaki eccentrics like the Citroën-obsessed Mad Max, another local hero now celebrated.
How to get amongst it
Toastie Takeover runs 24 June to 5 August, with finalists announced on 5 August and the Supreme Winner revealed on 20 August. Every entry has to sit between two slices of bread, include cheese (or a vegan alternative), be eatable by hand, and feature McClure’s Pickles — the Detroit-founded, now globally stocked pickle brand behind the whole competition, distributed here by Cook & Nelson. Judging runs on presentation, preparation, eatability, taste, provenance and innovation, with a People’s Choice vote running alongside the judges’ picks, so turning up and ordering the thing genuinely counts for something.
If you’re anywhere near New Plymouth — or Christchurch, once Shining Peak’s new site is open — this is the entry worth ordering as a pair rather than picking apart. Get the toastie. Get the margarita next to it. Notice how much work the drink is quietly doing. Then go find the venue near you doing the same thing badly, so you know the difference when you taste it.
Full entrant list and voting at toastietakeover.com.


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