For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

We were supposed to talk about Deacon King Kong. We did not. 

 

When Jen sat down with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist James McBride to discuss the Jen Hatmaker Book Club's May selection, the conversation took a hard left turn into something far richer — a wide-ranging tour through one of the most remarkable lives in American letters. 

 

James opens up about a scrappy and troubled adolescence in Brooklyn, getting straightened out in the heat of the Louisville, Kentucky summers, and the music that quite literally saved him. He reminisces about touring Europe as a young musician and playing saxophone alongside Stevie Ray Vaughan at Antone's in Austin, traveling with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour as a young journalist, surviving the Boston Globe's newsroom in the 1980s, writing songs for Anita Baker and Grover Washington, working with Quincy Jones, and getting dressed down by Harry Belafonte in a writers' room. Along the way, he reflects on race, art, faith, forgiveness, music, storytelling, old cars, and why the best writers are simply the people paying closest attention. He also shares what gives him hope about America right now — and it might surprise you.

 

Of course, we touch on Deacon King Kong—its unforgettable characters, humor, and heart—but this conversation became something even bigger: a portrait of the life experiences that shaped the storyteller behind the book.

 

Come for the book club discussion. Stay for one of the most fascinating conversations Jen has had in a long time.

 

Oh, and Deacon King Kong is a masterpiece. You should absolutely read it. 

 

Thought-provoking Quotes:

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmcbrideauthor/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JamesMcBrideAuthor/

 

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

 

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “I didn’t grow up wanting to be a writer. We were just concerned about eating.” – James McBride★ “Years and years of playing $50, $75, $100 gigs prepares you for a life of good struggle.” – James McBride★ “People are trying to do their best. Just because you don’t agree with them, it doesn’t mean they’re not trying to do their best.” – James McBride★ “We have work to do and I'm proud of those of us who are doing it. And for those of us who are not, maybe their children will come to it or maybe they won't. The struggle is a beautiful thing.” – James McBride➢ Miracle at St. Anna (Spike Lee movie) - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/miracle-at-st-anna/➢ The Good Lord Bird: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4eJBPDc➢ The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4d74l0a➢ Deacon King Kong: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4uLm4QP➢ The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4tv1nYc ➢ Parting the Waters: America in the King Years 1954-63 by Taylor Branch - https://amzn.to/49Nt3Av➢ Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOopIz2aHN5knpp-Y-iOHWJBAWnpj_HQTJ-kU2uedz33q6e3xyjrb

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Description:He's back — and this time he brought a memoir. Comedian Kevin James Thornton returns to For the Love, and if you thought you knew Kevin from his hilarious auto-tuned TikToks and wired-headphone microphone bits, this conversation will lovingly surprise you.

Kevin's debut memoir, Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat, traces his journey from performing as a literal sin clown on a youth group mission trip in 1990s New York City, to grinding it out on the stand-up circuit in LA, to touring one-man shows across the US, Canada, and eventually the world — Helsinki, Stockholm, Paris — all the way to present-day Cincinnati, where he's navigating a major life upheaval with nothing but his 13-pound black cat Comet and an extraordinary amount of hard-won self-awareness.

In this conversation, Kevin opens up about what it actually took to write a book — including the two-week-long Airbnb retreat where he mostly just slept and watched TV because his attention span had been completely obliterated — and what surprised him most about recording the audiobook (hint: he cried, more than once, and they left it in). He talks about the strange, freeing moment he realized he no longer needed to prove himself to anyone, and how that shift was the very thing that made his work finally land. And he reflects on the beautiful, sometimes maddening truth that life doesn't end so much as it just keeps beginning again.

Thought-provoking Quotes:


"Even when I was living in my car, I was still dreaming about the next creative project...I was like that when I was 20. And I'm like that today." – Kevin James Thornton


"I didn't realize that I went out into the world constantly trying to prove myself, that I was someone without Jesus. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I can see it so clearly looking backward now." – Kevin James Thornton


"We sort of hand over this personal power to other people. It takes a long time to recognize and unlearn that." – Kevin James Thornton

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:


Brick - https://getbrick.com


Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/


Sarah Bessey’s Substack - https://sarahbessey.substack.com/


Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat by Kevin James Thornton - https://amzn.to/4mVYPAJ


Laughing Toward The Light: Comedian James Thornton Finds Himself at 50 - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-55/laughing-toward-the-light-comedian-james-thornton-finds-himself-at-50/


Create with Kevin (watercolor videos) - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX-UksfK1pG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==


Enneagram assessment - https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/


The Comedy Store - https://thecomedystore.com/


Big Baby audiobook - https://amzn.to/4eClfVL

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.kevinjamesthornton.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kevinjamesthornton

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kevinjamesthornton1

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNQbKNgL8bcuH8z4pzh9flw

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kevinjamesthornton

Substack - https://kevinjamesthornton.substack.com/

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. 


To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty.

In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they’ll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it’s awkward) can be both healing and hilarious.

Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives.


Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he’s ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride


He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they’ve ever had to tell themselves


And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage

Thought-provoking Quotes:


“The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt


“One of the hardest things that I had to deal with telling myself is that it's okay to forgive yourself and to move forward. You deserve things in life, although maybe you haven't been the best person at times.”– Tyler Merritt


“I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt


“I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:


Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/


Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs


Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6


This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj


Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/


Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo


I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf


Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/


Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL


A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd


A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/

Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.


To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every family has its legends, the stories told and retold until they become gospel. Family Lore is a new weekly podcast that revisits those tales with curiosity, digging into the history behind each one to uncover what's true, what's myth, and what it all means. Enjoy this preview, then catch full episodes wherever you listen: https://link.pscrb.fm/f0281/FLFD

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:There are some books you read with your whole body. Strangers by Belle Burden is one of those books.

Belle was married for twenty-one years. Three kids. A life that, from the outside, looked like everything you're supposed to want. Then on the seventh day of the pandemic lockdown, a stranger left her a voicemail — and by the next morning, the man she thought she knew was gone.

Belle is a former Davis Polk attorney, a descendant of John Jay, and the granddaughter of legendary socialite Babe Paley. She was raised in a world where women simply did not speak publicly about their husbands' transgressions. So she broke the chain — first in a viral New York Times Modern Love essay, then in her New York Times bestselling memoir. And now she's here with Jen.

This conversation is everything. The night it all fell apart — the dinner, the mopped floor, the voicemail, the packed bag by morning. The myths we hand women about divorce and who gets to carry the shame. The money piece that nobody wants to talk about but everybody needs to hear. And the strange, hard-won truth that the most devastating thing that ever happened to you might also be the thing that finally gives you back to yourself.

Jen and Belle are in an accidental sisterhood — two women who wrote the book about the thing that broke them, because it turns out a million other women are walking around carrying the same broken thing in silence. This one is for every woman who has ever stood in a kitchen in her pajama pants and felt the floor shift beneath her feet.

If you can't yet imagine what's waiting for you on the other side of the hardest thing, let Belle and Jen show you.

Thought-provoking Quotes:

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

Guest’s Links:

Website - https://www.belleburden.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/belleburden/

 

Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/

Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/

Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker

 

The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.

★ “It's really connected me to humanity to hear people's very private stories, their very private feelings, and that they feel safe sharing them with me because I think I was so raw and open and honest about my own.”-- Belle Burden★ “Writing about pain is really something that we really don’t see enough of.” -- Belle Burden★ “It took me years to let go of the matronly woman in the pajama pants who he wasn’t attracted to anymore and to replace her image in my mind with something else.” -- Belle Burden★ “People really want to find the red flags because they want to know that this ending was predictable. I think that makes people feel safer because this is a scary story. It feels totally impossible and then also very possible. I think people really want those red flags.” -- Belle Burden★ “I never could have thought that that horrible thing could happen to me and I could end up in a place where I'm happier, where my life is more interesting, that I feel so much more myself and it's very hard to envision that when you're in it.”-- Belle Burden★ “I think when things kind of fall apart, you just are forced to become more relaxed because nothing is going as you intended it to go.” -- Belle Burden➢ Strangers: A Memoir of Marriage by Belle Burden - https://amzn.to/42M5rbQ➢ New York Times piece | Was I Married to a Stranger? - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/30/style/modern-love-married-to-a-stranger.html➢ TIME | The Danger of Surrendering Your Financial Independence in a Relationship - https://time.com/article/2026/04/17/the-danger-of-surrendering-your-financial-independence-in-a-relationship/➢ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4wC9N2Z➢ Buy Strangers from your local bookstore or McNally Jackson bookstore - https://mcnallyjackson.com/book/9780593733318

To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy

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