A Crisis of Imagination: Dr Mike Joy on Rethinking Water, Growth, and What Matters
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Mike Joy, one of New Zealand’s most respected and outspoken freshwater ecologists. A former dairy farm worker turned academic, Mike’s journey into environmental science was driven by what he witnessed firsthand—degrading waterways and the ecological cost of intensive agriculture. He went on to earn a PhD in ecology and freshwater biology and has since become a leading voice on the health of our rivers and lakes.
I speak with Mike about the state of Aotearoa’s freshwater systems and what they reveal about the way we live. We discuss the urgent need to change how we manage land, water, and resources in the face of climate disruption—and how systemic, rather than superficial, change is our best path forward. It’s a conversation about truth, courage, and hope for our environmental future.
Summary
Mike painted a sobering picture of the state of freshwater in Aotearoa—where three-quarters of our native freshwater fish are now threatened or at risk, and even our drinking water poses a risk to human health. The root causes are clear: the relentless intensification of dairy farming and an economic model that rewards pollution while ignoring the true costs of environmental harm.
Mike challenges us to flip the script—asking not how we can afford to change, but how we can afford not to. Prevention is not only better than cure—it’s far cheaper. His message is grounded in both science and common sense: reduce intensity, reduce harm.
More broadly, Mike questions our obsession with perpetual economic growth, reminding us that Gross Domestic Product is one of the most reliable indicators of environmental degradation. At the heart of it, this is a crisis of sustainability—but also a crisis of imagination.
A simpler life, lived within the limits of our energy and resources, can be richer, healthier, and more fulfilling. If we’re brave enough to let go of excess, we might just discover a better way forward.
About the podcast:
Hi! I’m Dr Adam Forbes. I am an Ecologist who specialises in the restoration of forest ecosystems. The Nature Conversations Podcast isn’t about me, however, the purpose of the podcast is to capture knowledge and insights from remarkable people and profile important issues for ecology and nature conversation.
Supporting the podcast and connecting with me:
If you like the content of the podcast, you can support its creation in the following ways:
1 – following, liking, rating and sharing the podcast or episodes with others,
2 – via my Patreon account (you can even support for free) https://patreon.com/DrAdamForbes
If you’d like to contact me, you can do so via email:
[email protected] or via my website https://www.forbesecology.co.nz
You can also find me on socials:
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/dradamforbes
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/adamforbesnz
LinkedIn - http://linkedin.com/in/dr-adam-forbes-58873a55
Youtube - https://youtube.com/@dradamforbes?si=FzxXRUqdPd9zxPlE
Keywords
Dr Mike Joy, New Zealand freshwater crisis, Aotearoa rivers and lakes, intensive dairy farming impact, freshwater ecology New Zealand, climate disruption and water, environmental sustainability podcast, ecological collapse warning, systemic change vs superficial change, pollution and economic growth, GDP and environmental harm, sustainable land and water use, crisis of imagination, rethinking economic growth, climate change and agriculture, natural resource limits, drinking water safety NZ, regenerative environmental thinking, preventing environmental damage, truth about New Zealand’s waterways
New Zealand