The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna walk into the heart of Stage 2 EFT and ask a hard question: How do you get the most out of YOU when every path forward involves pain?

Drawing on stories from haunted houses, combat medicine, and oncology surgery, they unpack what it means to be the stronger, wiser other—not as a top-down expert, but as a steady, emotionally present guide when clients’ eyes are begging, “Please don’t make me go there.”

You’ll hear how to:

Stay confident and regulated in deep Stage 2 work

Use your own limbic system, intensity, and presence in service of healing

Avoid “over-validating” clients out of depth

Become relentless but attuned when working with shame, trauma, and withdrawer re-engagement

Here are the top 10 points from the episode in bullet format, tailored for therapists:

Therapist consistency is heroic work

Therapists, like elite athletes or Navy SEALs, show up and train relentlessly—session after session—often without recognition, but this consistency is what makes deep Stage 2 work possible.

You are the “stronger, wiser other” in Stage 2

Borrowing from Bowlby, the therapist’s role is to be a grounded, slightly leading presence—not hierarchical, but a steady guide who believes in the clients’ capacity to go deeper.

Clients need your confidence more than your explanations

In Stage 2, detailed EFT mapping is less helpful than a calm, “I know where we’re going; we can do this together” energy.

Tone matters: gentle, invitational, and regulated—not pushy or detached.

Every real option involves pain—but not the same kind of pain

If you back away when clients say “don’t make me do this,” you protect them now but leave unregulated pain to hurt them later.

If you stay with them in the fear and shame, you create constructive, healing pain that opens the door to new patterns.

Self-coaching: what do YOU need to hear in the chair?

Therapists need internal scripts/mantras (e.g., “No one gets left behind on the battlefield”).

Drawing on mentors, attachment figures, faith, or personal values can help you stay present when you want to retreat.

Use your own limbic system—and the partner’s—to share the load

Strategic use of “we” (“We’ll go there together,” “We can face this”) helps clients feel they’re not alone.

The therapist can consciously bring their own emotional presence and the partner’s caregiving energy to bear on the hardest moments.

Relentless, attuned fighting for the client

Ryan names his intensity and even competitiveness as assets: he refuses to let the cycle “win.”

Clients often experience this as, “You fought for us more than we fought for ourselves,” which becomes contagious and regulating—as long as it stays tethered to alliance and repair.

Validation and celebration must be timed and dosed well

Over-validating or celebrating too soon can pull clients out of depth, like doing a cold plunge right after a hard muscle-building workout.

Validation should support staying with the core emotion, not remove the heat from the room prematurely.

Withdrawer re-engagement is “drip by drip” work

Ryan uses the oncologic surgery metaphor: you don’t want to close up while leaving “half the tumor” (unworked shame, trauma, negative self-views) inside.

Stage 2 requires repetition and reps—going back into the “torture chamber” scenes multiple times so the body learns, “I don’t have to do this alone anymore.”

Homework: study your A-game and your use of self

Notice what you do when you’re at your best: your presence, nonverbals, timing, intensity, or way of breathing/pausing.

Ask: How am I regulating me? How am I using me as the tool?

Then intentionally amplify those strengths and clarify what needs adjustment (e.g., less rescuing, more tolerating pain, smarter use of validation).

We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.

 

 Stay connected with us:

Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge

Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website

James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com

George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com

If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).

Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

In this episode of The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, James and Ryan explore the “sequela” — the long-term fallout — of the burnout pursuer and how that shows up in both Stage 1 and Stage 2 EFT. They unpack what it means to truly witness a burned-out pursuer’s journey instead of trying to “get them to move,” why holdouts are such a powerful (and costly) survival strategy, and how to work with the unique shame of someone who feels, “I hate myself for still loving you.”

You’ll hear practical ways to:

Stay grounded with a pursuer who’s done protesting and now just shows up with crossed arms

Do the kind of historical witnessing that feels more like a series of emotional “massages” than a quick intervention

Use hope scenes and the “big three” moments of failed hope in Stage 2 to create deep limbic revision

Support re-engagement without accidentally reenacting the very patterns that burned them out in the first place

Top 10 Points from the Episode

“Sequela” as a frame:
Ryan uses “sequela” (the long-term consequences) to describe what we’re really dealing with in a burnout pursuer—not just current behavior, but the accumulated fallout of thousands of drops, failed bids, and unresolved pain.

Burnout pursuer = mixed signals + survival strategy:
Burnout pursuers send mixed messages to their partner, the therapist, and themselves. What looks like manipulation or a “power move” is actually an adaptive survival strategy to cope with feeling helpless and repeatedly dropped.

Historical witnessing is non‑negotiable:
Stage 1 work with burnout pursuers requires slow, repeated, historical witnessing—not “forget the past, let’s start over.” The therapist invites them to tell the journey of how they got this burned out, and stays with the horror and grief of it instead of talking them out of it.

The “holdout” dynamic:
A burnout pursuer may show up in therapy with arms crossed, essentially saying, “I’m here, but I’m not moving until my partner proves it.” That holdout protects them, but also rigidly locks the cycle in place, sometimes even raising the bar as the withdrawer improves.

Therapist stance: release the need to make them move:
James names a crucial shift: the therapist must let go of the internal pressure to get the pursuer to move. The more the therapist pushes, the more the pursuer’s nervous system feels pressured and unsafe. The work becomes: “James, just be with what is. Give witness to their journey.”

Stage 1 as repeated “emotional massage”:
Ryan likens the work to a series of massages—one session won’t undo years of knots. The therapist returns multiple times to witnessing, validating, and grieving with the pursuer, even as this can be very hard on the withdrawer who’s just starting to “get it.”

Unique shame of the burnout pursuer:
There’s a specific shame: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me thousands of times… shame on me.” Many burnout pursuers feel, “I love you, and I hate myself for the fact that I love you.” Without naming and working this shame, they can’t risk hope again.

Stage 2: asking them to care‑give again is huge:
When the couple “dumps over” into Stage 2, the burnout pursuer is often asked to sit with and respond to their partner’s vulnerability first. This can re-evoke the old experience: “Once again, it’s not about me.” Naming how much is being asked of them is essential.

The “big three” hope scenes as core Stage 2 work:
Effective Stage 2 softening with burnout pursuers often requires revisiting 2–3 symbolic “big hope” moments (e.g., an elaborate romantic trip) where they risked, hoped, and were dropped. These hope scenes become key sites for deep grief, attachment injury work, and limbic revision—otherwise, it’s like leaving a tumor behind and relapse risk stays high.

From vision → witness → visual redemption (the “eye” theme):
Pursuers are visionaries—they can see how good the relationship could be, but that visionary energy often works against them. They need:

Witness in Stage 1 & early Stage 2: someone who really sees the journey of their drops and failed hopes.

Visual redemption in late Stage 2: in Step 7, the re-engaged withdrawer looks at them and clearly names, how I see you—lovable, worth fighting for, beautiful, someone I want to be with. That attuned “I see you” becomes a redemptive corrective to years of being unseen and dropped.

We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.

 

 Stay connected with us:

Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge

Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website

James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com

George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com

If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).

Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

What happens in the deepest moments of Stage 2 EFT work?
In this special roundtable episode of The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosts Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana sit down with three pioneers in EFT process research and training: Dr. Jim Furrow, Dr. Kathryn Rheem, and Dr. Marlene Best.

Together, they unpack the heart of Stage 2 change events in EFT: withdrawer re-engagement, pursuer softening, therapeutic presence, fear, longing, attachment risk, and the healing power of vulnerable reach-and-response moments.

This conversation is more than theory. It is a masterclass in how therapists help clients move from talking about emotion to speaking from emotion. The group explores how fear and longing work together, why vulnerability requires both courage and safety, and how the therapist’s emotional presence becomes the bridge that helps clients risk connection.

You’ll hear powerful reflections on:

Why fear must become experiential in Stage 2

The difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 emotional work

How longing creates movement through fear

Why enactments are essential for deep limbic revision

The therapist’s role in co-regulating attachment risk

How healing becomes more powerful than hurt in secure connection

This episode is rich with clinical wisdom, emotional depth, and heartfelt reflections from some of the leading voices who helped shape modern EFT.

If you’re an EFT therapist wanting to deepen your Stage 2 work—or simply someone passionate about emotional connection and healing relationships—this is an episode you will want to revisit again and again.

In This Episode
The Origins of Stage 2 EFT Research
The guests reflect on the early development of EFT process research and how their studies on pursuer softening and withdrawer re-engagement helped therapists better understand the moment-to-moment dynamics of attachment transformation.

Fear vs. Speaking From Fear
The conversation explores the difference between naming fear cognitively versus helping clients experientially contact fear in the present moment.

Longing and Fear Work Together
Dr. Marlene Best shares her now-famous insight that longing must move through fear for attachment change to occur. The group discusses how longing creates movement and momentum toward vulnerable reach.

Therapeutic Presence as Co-Regulation
Dr. Jim Furrow highlights that clients cannot stay emotionally present to fear unless therapists bring their own grounded emotional presence into the room.

Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 Emotional Work
The panel clarifies the crucial difference between:

accessing primary emotion in Stage 1

restructuring attachment through view of self/view of other in Stage 2.

Healing Is More Powerful Than Hurt
Dr. Kathryn Rheem closes with a moving reflection on how humans are wired both to hurt and to heal—and how vulnerable connection transforms emotional suffering into secure attachment.

Key Clinical Takeaways

Fear is not the enemy in Stage 2—it is the doorway.

Longing creates movement through attachment fear.

Therapists must bring their presence before asking clients to bring theirs.

Enactments help clients move from insight into embodied relational experience.

Stage 2 is about restructuring view of self and view of other.

Healing occurs when fear is shared relationally.

Withdrawers often access sadness and loss before fear.

Pursuer softening requires risk, surrender, and emotional reach.

Emotional safety grows through repeated vulnerable experiences.

Deep limbic revision requires deep experiential contact.

Best Quotes from the Episode

“We don’t just talk about fear in Stage 2—we speak from fear.”

“If you want someone to be present to their fear, you need to bring your presence.”

“Longing has to move through the fear.”

“The therapist’s regulation becomes the emotional scaffolding for the couple.”

“Stage 2 is not just emotional access—it’s restructuring attachment.”

“Fear reshapes our priorities and tells us not to reach when we most need connection.”

“The healing becomes more powerful than the hurt.”

“The goal isn’t to eliminate fear. The goal is to reach while fear is still present.”

“Therapists often drive past view of self and view of other instead of slowing down and exploring them.”

“We heal when vulnerable experience becomes relationally shared.”

“The deeper the longing, the deeper the fear.”

“People pull away from love when they’re terrified of losing it.”

“Healing happens when someone risks reaching and another person responds.”

“Fear says ‘don’t reach.’ Love says ‘try anyway.’”

“We all want someone who can help us carry what feels too heavy alone.”

“The strongest relationships aren’t fear-free—they’re responsive in the presence of fear.”

“Behind anger and distance is often grief, fear, and longing.”

“Secure connection grows when people can finally share what they were afraid to reveal.”

“You don’t heal by never hurting again. You heal by no longer hurting alone.”

“The courage to be emotionally honest changes relationships.”

EFT World Summit 2027

We wanted to let you know that the EFT World Summit 2027 is coming to Vancouver — May 9 to 11, 2027 — and we would love to see you there.

The Summit is the flagship gathering of the global EFT community — the moment when practitioners from over 40 countries come together in one place. You'll be in the room with the researchers and clinicians that have shaped your practice, and you'll participate in conversations that are writing the next chapter of this work. The line up of plenary speakers includes Gail Palmer, Leanne Campbell, Jim Coan, Mark Solms, and Gordon Neufeld — alongside your 4 choices of 12 hands-on workshops across all three modalities, hosted by leaders in the EFT community. All sessions are eligible for CE credits, so you can fulfill your continuing education requirements while connecting with practitioners who speak your clinical language.

Click the text below to link to the registration website. 

Come join us in Vancouver! Visit eftsummit2027.com to register today, and take your place in the gathering this community has been waiting for.

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

Welcome back to The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy. In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana discuss the concept of “Stage 2 Rehab” — the process of helping couples recover when deep emotional work becomes blocked, disorganized, or overwhelming.

Rather than seeing difficult sessions as failures, James and Ryan explore how moments of fear, confusion, and protective relapse often become opportunities for deeper attachment repair when therapists know how to slow down, reorganize the process, and help clients regain safety.

Why Stage 2 Work Can Collapse

Clients may not yet feel safe enough for depth

Fear often interrupts vulnerability

The caregiving system can become disoriented or blocked

Therapists sometimes move too fast for the nervous system

Stage 2 Rehab Strategies

Return to the last successful emotional step

Normalize fear and hesitation

Slow the process down

Regulate therapist energy and pacing

Help clients climb “back up the ladder.”

Reorganize emotional safety before pushing for more vulnerability

Highlighting Longing Beneath Pain
Drawing from Gail Palmer’s work, James and Ryan discuss how helping clients contact longing—not just pain—can soften blocks and reopen emotional engagement.

Resetting the Caregiving System
The hosts explore how caregivers can become overwhelmed, defensive, solution-focused, or emotionally disorganized during deep moments — and how therapists can help restore accessibility and responsiveness.

Therapist Takeaways

Don’t panic when the process breaks down

Fear is often the doorway, not the obstacle

Stay exploratory rather than perfectionistic

Repairing the process is often the work itself

We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.

 

 Stay connected with us:

Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge

Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website

James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com

George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com

If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).

Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.

🔥 The “Crazy Eights” (Two Lists of 8)
1. 8 Stage 2 Targets (Where to Go)
These are the deepest places where transformation happens:

Individual trauma (moments of being overwhelmed without escape)

Disowned parts of self (rejected to survive connection)

Attachment injuries (relational “never again” moments)

Significant loss (grief that reshapes attachment)

Family-of-origin wounds (roles, neglect, triangulation)

Early/formative relational experiences (first heartbreaks, betrayals)

Negative working model of self (“I am not enough”)

Fear of reaching + deepest attachment longings

2. 8 Scene Evocation Cues (How to Get There)
Used to unlock deep emotional processing:

What do you see?

What are the colors/details in the room?

What is the temperature?

What are you sitting on?

What is touching your body (clothes, textures)?

What do you hear?

What is happening in others’ eyes/faces?

What do you notice in your body right now?

💡 Top 10 Nuggets from the Show

Stage 2 is about building co-regulation bridges, not just insight.

You cannot revise what has never been fully experienced.

Therapists must go toward pain, not around it.

Safety is not the same as comfort.

If you avoid shame, you will also avoid transformation.

Emotion must be somatically alive to create lasting change.

“Fear” is not enough—you must access the meaning beneath the fear.

Deep work lowers relapse because the body learns a new path.

Clients don’t need to be taught—they need to experience something new.

Therapy is most powerful when we help clients say the unsayable.

We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.

 Stay connected with us:

Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge

Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website

James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com

George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com

If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).

Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!