Jennifer Garvey Berger’s three key insights: connectivity matters more than individual talent in complex systems; small experiments beat both over-planning and paralysis; and stories are legitimate measures of change before numbers shift.
If you've ever had a change plan that hasn't quite gone according to plan (and honestly, who hasn't?), this conversation with Jennifer Garvey Berger will shift how you think about leading transformation. She's spent three decades figuring out what actually works when everything feels unpredictable and out of control.
Jennifer challenges the "all-star team" approach most of us default to. Instead, she argues for building networks of diverse perspectives because you can't predict whose viewpoint will matter most until after the fact.
She also makes the case for experiments so small they feel almost trivial – like fancy lunches that generated $10 million in revenue. The key is making them smaller than you think, more fun than traditional initiatives, and designed specifically for learning rather than guaranteed success.
And here's something that might surprise you: Jennifer suggests that rumors and stories are often the first real indicators of change, long before your metrics show anything. In human systems, shifting narratives actually is real change.
This isn't about lighting incense and appreciating each other's light within. It's practical wisdom for navigating complexity without losing your mind.
Change Signal. Where ambitious leaders find modern change mastery. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works.
***
WHEN YOU’RE READY
🎧 A new episode every week (and sometimes two!)
The Change Signal newsletter. Short, practical, weekly
***
CONNECT
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SAY THANKS
💜Leave a review on Apple Podcasts
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29:56
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29:56
Should You Lie About Change? Michael Bungay Stanier solo episode
The three key insights from this episode: change is orienteering through unknown territory, not following a GPS route; organizations are addicted to efficiency when they desperately need experimentation; and the best experiments are designed to fail safely, not succeed predictably.
I'm diving solo into why small experiments might be the only sane approach to change in these chaotic times. After 30 years in this game, I've learned that "change management" is mostly a delusion — you can't manage your way through the unknown.
Most organizations want Google Maps for transformation, but what we're actually facing is orienteering through a misty valley with no clear path. Your company is probably designed to exploit what it knows, not explore what it doesn't, which creates a fundamental tension for anyone trying to lead change.
I'll walk you through what makes a good experiment, share some strategies for convincing skeptical stakeholders, and explain why you might need to run "two books" — one official, one real. Plus, why kindergarteners consistently outperform MBA students at innovation challenges.
If you're tired of change plans that feel more like wishful thinking than actual strategy, this episode offers a different way forward.
Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.
***
WHEN YOU’RE READY
🎧 A new episode every week (and sometimes two!)
The Change Signal newsletter. Short, practical, weekly
***
CONNECT
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***
SAY THANKS
💜Leave a review on Apple Podcasts
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23:18
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23:18
Can You Change Yesterday's People? Mark Surman, Mozilla
Mark Surman’s three key insights: spending years wrestling with whether your foundational values still make sense; accepting that legacy teams can't build the future, so you need separate structures; and mastering the ability to think across different timescales simultaneously.
Mark Surman, Mozilla's president, shares the messy reality of transforming a 25-year-old organization for the AI era. He's replaced 60% of staff, created entirely separate companies, and spent five years questioning whether Mozilla's core values around privacy and open source even work anymore.
This isn't your typical change management playbook. Mark talks about the "righteousness stick" that nonprofit employees wield to resist transformation, why he set up independent entities to avoid the innovator's dilemma, and his ongoing struggle to help people let go of the past without losing what made them special.
You'll hear practical advice about validating that your communication actually landed, the temperament required to shift between strategic and tactical thinking, and why change leaders need to resist the temptation to force transformation down people's throats. Mark's honest about what's working, what isn't, and whether this whole thing might end up being a "flaming dumpster fire of disaster."
If you're wrestling with organizational transformation, this conversation offers both wisdom and warnings from someone deep in the trenches.
Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.
***
WHEN YOU’RE READY
🎧 A new episode every week (and sometimes two!)
The Change Signal newsletter. Short, practical, weekly
***
CONNECT
💼Connect on LinkedIn
***
SAY THANKS
💜Leave a review on Apple Podcasts
💚Leave a review on Spotify
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29:56
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29:56
Is Your Organization Change Allergic? Anne Gotte
Three key insights from Anne Gotte: change management is as outdated as "personnel" organizations must diagnose their change allergies before attempting transformation; and leaders need to embrace clumsy imperfection while providing clear direction.
Anne Gotte is SVP Global Talent & Organization Effectiveness at Mondelēz and she brings refreshing honesty to the messy reality of organizational transformation. She's worked at Bumble, Ecolab, and General Mills, collecting scars and wisdom along the way.
This conversation challenges the traditional playbook. Anne argues that "decree change" — where executives design solutions in isolation, announce them broadly, then expect magic — as well and truly reached its expiration date.
Instead, she advocates for building ongoing change capacity rather than managing episodic projects. Her approach starts with uncomfortable questions: Who are we today? What makes any change difficult for us? How do our systems contradict our change story?
The discussion explores why change feels clumsy (spoiler: it's supposed to), how to honour uncertainty while providing clarity, and why slow can actually be fast. Anne's insights about getting comfortable being uncomfortable offer a different path forward for change leaders tired of pretending transformation should feel orderly and predictable.
This is change leadership for grown-ups who've learned that the mess is actually the work.
Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.
***
WHEN YOU’RE READY
🎧 A new episode every week (and sometimes two!)
The Change Signal newsletter. Short, practical, weekly
***
CONNECT
💼Connect on LinkedIn
***
SAY THANKS
💜Leave a review on Apple Podcasts
💚Leave a review on Spotify
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26:22
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26:22
Start with the Gnarliest Problem: Rodney Evans
Three key insights: Change work isn't transformative anymore—it's operational; your organization does everything the same dysfunctional way; and everyone secretly benefits from broken patterns.
My guest, Rodney Evans from TheReady, has abandoned talking about "adaptability" because people's eyes glaze over. Instead, she starts every conversation with leaders by asking about their gnarliest cross-functional problem that can't be solved.
Why does this work? Because everyone has experienced that moment where important work gets "chopped up, parceled out across the org chart where it goes to die."
Rodney introduces her depth-finding model — four organizational zones from sky to midnight that reveal how change actually happens. The insight that stopped me cold: how your organization does hiring is how it rewards, makes strategy, and handles everything else.
A particularly uncomfortable truth? Broken organizational patterns persist because everybody gets something out of them, even while complaining. The solution involves naming the pattern and stepping outside it through small interventions in how work actually gets done.
This conversation will shift how you see organizational change from discrete projects to continuous evolution. If you're tired of the same problems recurring, Rodney Evans offers a different way forward.
Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.
***
WHEN YOU’RE READY
🎧 A new episode every week (and sometimes two!)
The Change Signal newsletter. Short, practical, weekly
***
CONNECT
💼Connect on LinkedIn
***
SAY THANKS
💜Leave a review on Apple Podcasts
💚Leave a review on Spotify
If you’re leading change in organizations, this will be your favourite podcast.
Change is harder than ever. Transformation is more complex, unpredictable and overwhelming than it’s ever been. Change Signal cuts through the noise to find the good stuff that works.
Michael Bungay Stanier, author of The Coaching Habit and organizational transformation student for thirty years, talks to the best thinkers, senior leaders, and experienced practitioners in the world of change, to find what works, what doesn’t, and what to try instead. With Change Signal as your guide, you’ll be more efficient and less overwhelmed, and your change projects will more likely succeed.
Change Signal: Where we cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works.
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