How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty

I'm joined this week by a repeat offender, Tāmati Rimene-Sproat, TV presenter and host of Counting the Beat, who's now 18 months into fatherhood. We first met when Tāmati interviewed me for the show before he'd even had his son, so I wanted him back to talk about what those 18 months have actually been like on the other side.
Tāmati is refreshingly honest about the highs and lows: the sleep deprivation, the "no one tells you how hard this actually is" reality, and how quickly it all flies by. We talk about how he and his wife have navigated juggling two careers with unpredictable schedules, why they're determined to build an equal household rather than default into traditional roles, and how a genuinely flexible, empathetic production team gave him the space to be a hands-on dad from day one. Tāmati also shares a beautiful te ao Māori lens on what it means to put people, not productivity, at the centre of how we work, and why that shift would change everything for parents and kids alike.
This is a warm, honest, big-hearted conversation about fatherhood, flexibility and what "good" can actually look like when employers lead with empathy.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
What surprised Tāmati most about becoming a dad, and why the biggest shock was how fast it all goes
How he and his wife are navigating two unpredictable careers and building an equal household
What it looked like when his production company said "don't even ask" to three months at home
Why Tāmati believes his experience isn't yet the norm, especially for dads asking for flexibility
The te ao Māori concept of putting people at the centre, and what that could mean for how we all work
Why empathy from employers doesn't just help families, it builds loyalty and lifts productivity
Tāmati’s magic wand: a system that lets every parent experience what he has, so the motherhood penalty stops falling on mothers alone

Resources:
Te Whare Tapa Whā is a holistic Māori health model developed by Sir Mason Durie in 1984 that compares wellbeing to a four-walled meeting house.
The whakataukī that Tāmati referred to is
"Ko te piko o te māhuri, tērā te tupu o te rākau"
The way the young sapling is shaped (or bent) determines how the tree will grow
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping.
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

I'm joined this week by Davinnia Tan, an employment relations leader who has served as a member of the Employment Relations Authority, an independent reviewer of ACC decisions, and a peer reviewer for workplace investigations. While serving as a member, Davinnia became only the second person in the ERA's 25-year history to have a baby, and what followed was a front-row education in just how far Aotearoa's institutions still have to go when it comes to caregiving. Outside her day-to-day work, she writes Ngākau Reworked, exploring the motherhood penalty and matrescence through a tikanga-informed lens.
Davinnia shares the confronting reality of being declined a four-day week with no reasons given, having to choose between full-time daycare or leaving her statutory role, and being told to pump breast milk in a CCTV hearing room with the screens covered. We talk about the stark contrast between her experience and her husband's, whose employer became part of their village, and what that taught her about the power of paid partner's leave.
We also get into why New Zealand hasn't measured the motherhood penalty since 2018, has never measured the working dad experience at all, and what Sweden's 50 years of parental leave reform can actually teach us about what works. This is a conversation about systems, statistics and the deeply personal cost of a country that still treats caregiving as a "nice to have."
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
What happened when Davinnia was declined a four-day week with no reasons given, and the impossible choice it created
Why being a statutory officer meant she had no rights under the Parental Leave and Employment Act
How her husband's supportive employer became "the village" that held their family together
Why New Zealand hasn't measured the motherhood penalty since 2018, and has never measured the working dad experience
What Sweden's "use it or lose it" parental leave reforms reveal about what actually shifts father engagement
Why flexible working needs consistency, not just policy, to stop pushing mothers out of the workforce
How outcomes-based, output-focused job design could ease pressure on managers without more red tape
Davinnia's case for parental support to be recognised internationally as a human right
Her message to any dad on the fence about taking parental leave

Resources discussed:
https://substack.com/@ngkaureworked
https://www.instagram.com/ngakau.reworked/
ShortChanged - The Pay Equity Podcast Investigation

Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping.
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

I'm joined this week by Jayne Chater, executive coach, leadership development specialist, and author of A Slight Detour: A Guide to Navigating Family and Career. Jayne has spent decades helping women accelerate their careers at every stage of life, and she brings both professional expertise and lived experience to this conversation as a mum of three navigating a blended whānau of nine.
We get honest about what the motherhood penalty actually feels like from the inside: the guilt of going back to work early, the guilt of staying home, and the quiet resentment that builds when caregiving roles are simply assumed rather than discussed.
Jayne shares her own story of being thrown into senior leadership in her mid-20s, navigating pregnancy with no paid parental leave as a self-employed woman, and the moment she realised the expectations at home had never actually been talked about, just inherited.
We dig into what employers can do differently (starting with checking assumptions, not policies), what mothers can control when everything feels like it's on fire, and why learning to say "full stop, silence" instead of over-explaining might be one of the most powerful career tools going. We close with three magic wand wishes that get right to the heart of a system that still doesn't value caregiving.
This is a warm, funny, deeply honest conversation for anyone juggling career and caregiving and wondering if anyone else feels this exhausted too.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
Why the motherhood penalty shows up on both sides, guilt at work and guilt at home
What happens when caregiving roles are assumed rather than discussed with a partner
Why "checking your assumptions" matters more than any parental leave policy
How to stop apologising and over-explaining, and why "full stop, silence" changes everything
Why sickness in the family should be spoken about as a household issue, not a personal failing
The difference between coming back "down" after a career break versus coming back "on"
Why knowing your yes and your no (and sticking to it) protects your time and energy
Jayne's three magic wand wishes: unlimited household support, work valued on impact not hours, and six months' fully paid leave for both parents

Book: A Slight Detour: A Guide to Navigating Family and Career - https://jaynechater.com/book
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping.
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

I'm delighted to welcome two next-level guests to the podcast: Dr. W. Brad Johnson and Dr. David G. Smith, authors of Fair Share: How Men and Women Can Create a More Equitable Workplace Together. Between them, Brad and David have spent decades researching mentoring, sponsorship and male allyship, and this conversation is a masterclass in why "today's workplace is broken" and what it will actually take to fix it.
We dig into the archaic 20th-century workplace built for men with a stay-at-home partner, why senior leaders often can't imagine anything different, and the granite wall dads hit the moment they ask for the same flexibility mums are expected to need. Brad and David unpack the real meaning behind their book's title, fair share for women at work, fair share for men at home, and why degendering caregiving policy might be the single biggest lever we have. We also get into how to call out workplace "sludge" without putting people on the defensive, why personal connection changes minds faster than any business case, and what each of them would do with a magic wand to smash the motherhood penalty for good.
This is a rich, generous conversation for anyone who wants practical tools, not just more research, on building genuine workplace equity.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
Why Brad and David call today's workplace "the 20th century workplace," and why it hasn't caught up with modern families
The implicit bias behind why "caregiver" almost always conjures the image of a mother
Why senior male role models taking their full parental leave matters more than any policy on paper
What "fair share" really means: fair share of pay and opportunity for women, fair share of caregiving for men
How to engage men in gender equity work without making it feel like a compliance exercise
The power of personal connection in shifting a senior leader's perspective, and the story that changed one CEO's whole approach to caregiving
Two simple strategies for calling out workplace "sludge" without making anyone feel targeted
Why mandatory, degendered parental leave could be one of the fastest ways to close the motherhood penalty
Brad and David's magic wand answers: universal childcare and fully degendered caregiving leave

Check out https://www.workplaceallies.com/ to find out more about Brad and David's work
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping.
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

I'm back with the marvellous Stephanie Pow, founder of Crayon and a repeat offender on this podcast. We recorded this the same morning we'd both been doing media commentary on the National Party's newly announced parental leave policy, so this episode is a bit of a riff session: two working parent advocates unpacking what the policy actually says, what it misses, and what we'd both want to see instead.
Steph walks me through the detail of the proposed staggered increase from 26 to 30 weeks of paid parental leave and the option to share it between partners, and we dig into why "shareable" leave so often just means "unused" leave when the numbers don't stack up.
We talk dedicated paid partner's leave, why New Zealand remains one of just three developed countries without it, and the research linking it to everything from father and mother mental health to relationship stability and even mothers' long-term earnings. We also get into unpaid caregiving, individual versus joint taxation, the true cost of school holidays, and why I think it's time for a Minister for Working Parents.
This is an election year conversation for anyone who wants to walk into a town hall meeting armed with the right questions.
In This Episode, You'll Learn:
What's actually in National's new parental leave policy, and where it falls short
Why "shareable" parental leave doesn't work if the numbers don't work for families
The research on paid partner's leave: mental health, relationship stability and mothers' earnings
Why NZ, the US and Israel are the only developed countries with no paid partner's leave
What the You Choose survey found Kiwi women actually want from caregiving policy
Why unpaid caregiving needs to be valued and supported, not just paid leave
How individual tax filing in NZ compares to countries that support single-income or part-time families
Why the "first thousand days" research should change how we think about parental leave as infrastructure
My case for a Minister for Working Parents, and why nobody is joining the dots

Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded and created by Emma Mclean, the founder of Works for Everyone. Emma Mclean is a mum of three and founder of Works for Everyone, a professional development business that partners with NZ's leading corporates to help them retain and grow their working parent talent. She does this through innovative leadership programmes, executive coaching and keynote speaking. She founded her business in 2019 following a 20-year career in corporate strategy where she experienced first-hand how hard it was to have a career and a family. As an impatient optimist when it comes to system change, she launched her successful podcast "How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty" in 2023 where she talks to humans who are actively working to change the system that creates financial penalties that only mothers pay. And in 2024 she launched the first NZ Part Time Power List, to shine a light on those senior roles in NZ that are career building, not side stepping.
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking: emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/