We’re nearly six months into Donald Trump’s second term as president, and a lot of us are still trying to figure out what that actually means. Not just politically. But culturally. What kind of country are we living in? And what kind of future are we heading toward?
In today’s episode, Sean and Vox senior correspondent Zack Beauchamp try to answer these difficult questions. They discuss Trump’s successes and failures, how he appeals to his supporters, and how the left can respond to the Trump administration.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and the author of the On the Right newsletter. Sign up for the newsletter here.
Listen to Sean’s previous interview with Zack about the state of right-wing politics here.
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52:31
A right-wing economist makes his case
For decades, the American right has stayed on brand: the economy. Low taxes. Free markets. Deregulation. Those have been the buzzwords for more than half a century. But that doctrine is now being challenged by other conservatives who envision a future in which America’s trade deficit is lower, manufacturing returns to the US, and Americans buy more American-made products. Is this future even possible?
Economist Oren Cass thinks it is.
In today’s episode, the founder of the think tank America Compass speaks to Sean about right-wing economic populism. The two discuss a conservative, pro-worker approach to economic policy, Cass’s plan to bring manufacturing back to the US, and what types of behavior economic policy should incentivize.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Oren Cass, chief economist and founder of American Compass. Editor of The New Conservatives: Restoring America's Commitment to Family, Community, and Industry.
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1:08:14
What "near death" feels like
Sebastian Junger came as close as you possibly can to dying. While his doctors struggled to revive him, the veteran reporter and avowed rationalist experienced things that shocked and shook him, leaving him with profound questions and unexpected revelations. In his book, In My Time of Dying, he explores the mysteries and commonalities of people’s near-death experiences.
In this episode, which originally aired in May 2024, he joins Sean to talk about what it’s like to almost die and what quantum physics can tell us about the afterlife.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Sebastian Junger, journalist and author of In My Time of Dying: How I Came Face to Face With the Idea of an Afterlife
Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members
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56:26
Machiavelli on how democracies die
Almost nothing stands the test of time. Machiavelli's writings are a rare exception.
Why are we still talking about Machiavelli, nearly 500 years after his death? What is it about his political philosophy that feels so important, prescient, or maybe chilling today?
In this episode, Sean speaks with political philosopher and writer Erica Benner about Niccolo Machiavelli’s legacy. The two discuss The Prince, Machiavelli’s views on democracy, and what he might say about the Trump administration were he alive today.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Erica Benner, political philosopher, historian, and author of Be Like the Fox
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51:30
Do you have moral ambition?
We’re told from a young age to achieve. Get good grades. Get into a good school. Get a good job. Be ambitious about earning a high salary or a high-status position.
Some of us love this endless climb. But lots of us, at least once in our lives, find ourselves asking, "What’s the point of all this ambition?"Historian and author Rutger Bregman doesn’t think there is a point to that kind of ambition. Instead, he wants us to be morally ambitious, to measure the value of our achievements based on how much good we do, by how much we improve the world.
In this episode, Bregman speaks with guest host Sigal Samuel about how to know if you’re morally ambitious, the value of surrounding yourself with like-minded people, and how to make moral ambition fashionable.
Host: Sigal Samuel, Vox senior reporter
Guest: Rutger Bregman, historian, author of Moral Ambition, and co-founder of The School for Moral Ambition
Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members
Show Notes
Vox’s Good Robot series can be found here:
Episode 1
Episode 2
Episode 3 (discusses the "drowning child thought experiment" and effective altruism)
Episode 4
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The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday.
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