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Part 2: The Unwritten Order of Things—A Reading
Kurt Francom reads this Brigham Young University devotional given by Elder Boyd K. Packer in 1996. Listen to the podcast episode about this devotional and its influence on leadership culture in the Church. Links Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Read the transcript of this podcast Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights 00:02:00 - The Importance of Teaching Basics 00:03:30 - The Foundation of Knowledge and Testimony 00:05:00 - Understanding the Unwritten Order of Things 00:06:30 - The Role of the Presiding Officer in Meetings 00:08:00 - Accepting Calls and Releases in the Church 00:09:30 - Learning from Experienced Leaders 00:11:00 - Seeking Counsel and Blessings 00:12:30 - The Vertical Nature of Revelation 00:14:00 - The Importance of Being a Good Follower 00:15:30 - Proper Order in Callings and Assignments 00:17:00 - Maintaining Dignity in Meetings 00:18:30 - The Role of the Bishop in Meetings 00:20:00 - Learning Through Observation and Experience 00:21:30 - The Power of the Ordinary Saints The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.
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Part 1: The Unwritten Order of Things—A Review
Kurt Francom, Executive Director of Leading Saints, shares his thoughts on the unwritten order of things—a term popularized by Elder Boyd K. Packer in a BYU devotional in October 1996. This phrase has influenced leadership culture in the Church, often being used as a trump card to justify certain practices or norms that are not explicitly documented in church handbooks. Listen to a reading of the original devotional. Links Is Aspiring Wrong? Church Doctrine, Policy, & Leadership | An Interview with Anthony Sweat Y Religion: Defining Church Doctrine, with Michael Goodman The Role of Doubt and Faith | An Interview With Prof. Michael Goodman Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Read the transcript of this podcast Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights Kurt explores the context of Elder Packer's talk, highlighting the challenges of leadership in the 1990s when handbooks were not publicly accessible. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the principles behind leadership practices rather than blindly adhering to unwritten rules that may not serve the best interests of the community. He outlines the ten unwritten orders of things mentioned by Elder Packer, assessing whether each principle is supported by the church handbook. While some of these principles align with current guidelines, others are not formally recognized, raising questions about their validity and application in modern leadership. Kurt encourages listeners to consider the implications of using the unwritten order of things as a means of manipulation or control, and advocates for a more open dialogue about leadership best practices, urging leaders to communicate their expectations clearly rather than relying on vague traditions. He invites listeners to engage in this conversation, share their experiences, and contribute to a culture of effective leadership where the church can more-effectively draw people to Christ. 00:02:47 - Context of Elder Packer's Talk 00:04:11 - The Unwritten Order of Things Explained 00:05:24 - Weaponization of the Unwritten Order 00:06:05 - Importance of Context in Leadership 00:07:51 - Changes in Handbook Accessibility 00:09:05 - Elder Packer's Teaching Style 00:10:08 - Challenges in Communicating Leadership Guidelines 00:11:22 - The Role of General Authorities in Leadership 00:12:03 - Misinterpretation of the Unwritten Order 00:13:40 - Elder Packer's Ten Unwritten Orders 00:14:01 - Analysis of Each Unwritten Order 00:19:05 - The Role of Personal Counsel in Leadership 00:20:30 - Observing Church Customs and Traditions 00:21:23 - Setting a Tone of Dignity in Meetings 00:22:06 - The Balance of Leadership and Followership 00:23:20 - Binding Nature of the Unwritten Order 00:24:03 - Current Unwritten Orders in Leadership 00:25:07 - The Tyranny of General Authority 00:26:20 - The Importance of Local Leadership Autonomy 00:27:34 - Principles vs. Prescriptions in Leadership 00:29:41 - Establishing Best Practices in Leadership 00:30:57 - Conclusion: Moving Beyond the Unwritten Order The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler,
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The Doctrine Related to Being Single or Married | An Interview with Michael Goodman
This is a rebroadcast. The episode originally ran in September 2021. Michael A. Goodman has worked for the Church Educational System since 1989 and was the manager of CES College Curriculum before joining the Brigham Young University Church History and Doctrine department in 2007. He is a professor of Religious Education and serves as the RSC’s Associate Publications Director and the Editor of the Religious Educator journal. Michael holds a bachelor’s degree in Journalism with Public Relations, a master’s degree in Information Technology, and a PhD in Marriage, Family, and Human Development. He is a co-investigator on the Family Foundations of Youth Development longitudinal research project, focused on adolescent and family faith development and mental health outcomes with a special emphasis on suicidality. Michael is married to Tiina Anita Goodman. Links Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Read the transcript of this podcast Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library, including the Single Saints Virtual Conference Highlights 1:55 BYU Eternal Families course chair and online curriculum author 4:10 How does BYU teach the doctrine of Eternal Families? Courses based on doctrine with some social science mixed in Eternal principles and daily principles taught (money, sexuality etc) 5:50 We don’t have to convince BYU students that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints values families, but they don’t often know why. 8:30 D&C 131 and 132: The Degrees of Glory and importance of eternal families 10:40 The Family: A Proclamation to the World. Quotes document. 11:40 President Oaks Quote: “Our theology begins with Heavenly Parents. Our greatest aspiration is to be like them.” “The purpose of mortal like and the mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to prepare the sons and daughters of God for their eternal destiny- to become like our Heavenly Parents.” 13:35 Divine Identity and Divine Destiny… as children of God 15:45 Mother in Heaven: foundational doctrine 16:35 When speaking to single adults after the foundation has been laid, what do you say next? …Well someday?!? NO! Acknowledge their pain and the issues they face. 17:45 Neil L. Anderson quote: “We will continue to teach the Lord’s pattern for families, but now with millions of members and the diversity among those in the church we need to be more thoughtful and sensitive. Our church culture and vernacular are sometimes quite unique. The Primary children are not going to stop singing 'Families can be Together Forever' but when they sing 'I’m so happy when Daddy comes home' or 'With father and mother leading the way…', not all children will be singing about their family.” 20:50 What do we need to know now, to feel joy now? Four overarching principles: No one denied any promised blessing because of something outside of their control YOU are included in the plan of salvation, and because of that inclusion there is hope. Heavenly Father will not abrogate agency. God loves us with a perfect love and will do anything in his power to exalt us. Through the grace of Christ, Heavenly Father can provide solutions to those things outside our control (24:51) 26:04 Quote President Kimball: “We promise you that in as far as eternity is concerned, NO soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which they could not help. That the Lord never fails in his promises. Every righteous person will eventually receive ALL to which they are entitled and have not forfeited through any fault of their own.” 28:15 Stay covenant-connected. 28:30 Quote President Nelson: Through no failing of their own “they” deal with the trails of life alone. May we all be reminded that in the Lord’s own way and time no blessing will be withheld from his faithful saints. The Lords will judge and reward each individual according to their heartfelt desires as well as deeds.”
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The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong
Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. While not a professional researcher, his career involved a large amount of research and the research he shares in this podcast was done with the help of some of the top Latter-day Saint researchers in the world. Today, Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Links Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights In this conversation, Jeff dives deep into the tension between church culture and personal beliefs, and how embracing it can lead to growth and understanding within our church community. He discusses the findings from a comprehensive survey that aimed to understand disaffiliation and the tensions members experience in their church lives. A key takeaway is the importance of understanding what members love about the Church, revealing the core values that bind members together, despite the tensions they may feel. Jeff talks about the tensions present in church culture, emphasizing the dual facets of this conflict: the tension between tradition and change, and the tension arising from our differences. He explores how members often feel a significant conflict in their church experience, with many expressing discomfort with the culture. Jeff presents data indicating that nearly half of the respondents felt a significant conflict, and more than half did not feel a strong sense of belonging in their congregations. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of recognizing and embracing this tension rather than attempting to eliminate it. 00:02:40 - Purpose of the Survey on Disaffiliation 00:05:12 - Survey Response Insights 00:07:38 - What People Love About the Church 00:10:30 - Core Values of Church Members 00:12:33 - Strengths of the Church 00:13:10 - Tension Between Tradition and Change 00:16:00 - Navigating Cultural Differences 00:19:15 - Understanding Tension in Church Experience 00:22:10 - Data on Comfort and Belonging 00:23:38 - Recognizing Conflict in the Congregation 00:30:02 - Tension Between Personal and Cultural Values 00:35:44 - Embracing Tension in Leadership 00:40:08 - Creating a Safe Space for Tension The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.
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Lead & Teach Youth Through Strong Examples | An Interview with John Bytheway
This is a rebroadcast. The episode originally ran in March 2020. John Bytheway has a master’s degree in Religious Education and is a popular speaker, author of more than two dozen books and CDs, and the co-host of the world-renowned Follow Him podcast with Hank Smith. He has taught the Book of Mormon at Brigham Young University and at the BYU Salt Lake Center. John served as bishop of the Salt Lake Winder 10th Ward, and currently serves as a member of the Young Men General Advisory Council. Links By John Bytheway Our Turtle House is now LatterDaily Meg Johnson's story: "Falling Up" Six Events: The Restoration Model for Solving Life's Problems The Divine Center Follow Him Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights 4:00 John’s background as a teacher and speaker 5:45 Writing books and how that happens for him 8:00 How his calling as a bishop came about 9:20 Serving as a bishop is different for every person and area; he had people asking for welfare support before he ever sat in the bishop’s chair 10:40 For bishops with significant welfare challenges in their ward First ask what they need and listen Make a three-column chart of what the ward can do, what the Lord can do, and what the individual can do to help them—handing back the problem to the individual so you can work on it together instead of taking it from them Helps eliminate the transactional mentality and replace it with mentoring Help them get their spiritual act together first 16:20 Emphasis to push more things (such as welfare needs) to the ward council; called a “welfare coordinator” couple to help handle welfare requests before bringing it to the bishop 18:10 Moving people closer to financial self-sufficiency and self-reliance Learning experiences as a missionary in the Philippines and seeing similar development in the welfare program 21:15 Ended meetings with his counselors at a specific time, no matter what 22:30 “It takes a really good meeting to be better than no meeting at all”: Virtual ward council held via text messages throughout the week to eliminate much of the administrative points so they could really focus on individuals in the ward council meeting 24:20 Losing the joy in the calling, and how talking with others who have struggled helped Experience speaking with Robert L. Millet and having “same boat therapy” Recognizing that there are difficulties in the calling but moments that made it worth it Fisher missions vs hunter missions: some fantastic stories from great moments, but difficult days, weeks, and months between 31:30 Calling ward members each evening on their birthday was a simple, routine thing that became important for connecting 34:30 Working with youth: firesides are different than teaching a class Taught Sunday School with his wife after serving as bishop, and went back to the simple idea that you have to care for them first Put people in place with the youth who are great examples; youth learn by example, not principles 37:10 Kids will listen differently to a speaker at a fireside because they don’t think that the speaker was influenced by what their parents or leaders are saying (“An expert is anybody from out of town”) 39:30 Stephen Covey: the order of the events in the restoration is a formula for solving life’s problems. Start with identity and relationships. “If we want to help our children or other people change their behavior, we begin by improving the quality of our relationships with them, and we introduce new ideas before we introduce new expectations and controls. In other words, we help them see the world differently. When a person’s paradigm changes, everything else changes with it.” 44:25 His book about Moroni: Moroni didn’t get to how to run the Church until Moroni chapter 6 46:00 Working with Meg Johnson and Hank Smith Image: magazine.byu.edu
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