Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

✨ "You do it by offering before you ask, connection before direction." – Jenifer Zeligs
✨ "Look with appreciation. Look with delight. Look with interest. Look with curiosity." – Jenifer Zeligs

Jenifer Zeligs has spent her life reading animals of every kind, from cheetahs and wolves to sea lions and horses. She started at the National Zoo at nine years old, mentored by exotic animal trainer Casey Cover, and went on to a career that helped shape modern liberty horse training. She is also the person that legendary horse trainer David Lichman credits with the "come bearing gifts" philosophy that underpins his own work.
The conversation ranges across the two foundational techniques of animal training, why prevention beats correction in a crisis, and the true story of training sea lions to film humpback whales in the open ocean. Jenifer and Rupert also explore how a childhood horse allergy set her on this path, why individual variation matters more than breed or species, and how her practice as a Buddhist has shaped the way she teaches fearlessness and calm to horses.
A wide-ranging, generous conversation between two people who have spent decades thinking about what animals need from us.

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What You'll Learn in This Episode
00:04:23 – How a childhood horse allergy led Jenifer into a lifelong career as an animal behaviorist
00:10:18 – The two foundational techniques of bridging (reward markers) and targeting that changed how she trains any species
00:14:13 – The "come bearing gifts" principle: offering trust before ever asking for anything in return
00:35:42 – What actually makes you a safe space for an animal, and what makes you unsafe
00:41:31 – Systematic desensitization, and why announcing your intentions changes everything
00:52:15 – The difference between behavioral and environmental enrichment, and why horses are missing out
00:56:00 – Why consistency matters for communication but variety matters for motivation
01:09:19 – The extraordinary story of training sea lions to film whales in the open ocean
01:28:00 – "Contra freeloading," and why animals (and humans) are wired to want to work for things
02:08:24 – Teaching a horse to find calm through a simple "head down" cue
Memorable Moments from the Episode
00:14:43 – Jenifer describes conditioning trust with cheetahs, mountain lions, and wolves through patient, positive interactions from behind a safety barrier
01:14:43 – A sea lion caught between orcas and open water swims 20 miles home, then leaps into the boat exhausted
01:40:18 – Jenifer's reminder that the best trainers "don't get into the crash" in the first place
02:10:00 – The story of the notoriously aggressive horse David Litchman connected her with, and how a new paradigm transformed him
02:15:00 – Rupert traces the story of the Buddha's own horse, Kantaka, and its place in Buddhist legend
Guest Contact & Links
animaltraining.us
Books: Animal Training 101: The Complete and Practical Guide to the Art and Science of Behavior Modification https://amzn.to/3UA43YZ
Mindful Partners: The Zen Art and Science of Working with Animals https://amzn.to/4xM2KVw
About Jenifer Zeligs
Jenifer Zeligs is an animal behaviorist, psychologist, and author who has spent decades working with species ranging from horses and dogs to cheetahs, wolves, and sea lions. She began her training career at the National Zoo at nine years old, mentored by exotic animal trainer Casey Cover, and later became a foundational influence on liberty horse trainer David Lichman, who credits her "come bearing gifts" philosophy as central to his own approach. She is the author of Animal Training 101 and Mindful Partners: The Zen Art and Science of Working with Animals, and teaches online courses at animaltraining.us. Now based in Oxford, England, she brings together decades of hands-on behavioral science with a practicing Buddhist's approach to trust, safety, and fearlessness.
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✨ "I think love is just not blocking out your connectedness to anything else." – Warwick Schiller
✨ "The same action with a different intention has a different energetic signature." – Warwick Schiller
Warwick Schiller joins Rupert Isaacson for a wide-ranging conversation on altered states of consciousness in horsemanship, a subject the two first began exploring together on Warwick's own podcast. Rupert opens with the story of his son Rowan's healing ceremony with Kuku Yalanji shamans in Australia's Daintree Rainforest, and the two trace the theme from there into what "consent" and so-called horse slapping actually look like through a horse's nervous system.
From there the conversation moves through the deep history of horse worship, from the goddess Epona and Xenophon's writings to Roman cavalry rituals and Mongolian shamanism, and lands on a central idea both men keep circling back to: that intention itself changes the energy, or as Warwick puts it, the "energetic signature," of any action, whether that's patting a horse, backing one up, or riding into battle.
A wide-ranging, unhurried conversation that moves from hardware stores and rodeo bulls to henbane, King Arthur, and a closing reading from the Hadith.
What You'll Learn in This Episode
00:00:36 – Rupert opens the episode by introducing the theme of altered states of consciousness in horsemanship
00:05:24 – Rupert recounts his son Rowan's healing ceremony with Kuku Yalanji shamans in the Daintree Rainforest
00:11:03 – Warwick unpacks consent, "horse slapping," and what it means to actually be present with a horse
00:24:13 – Why Warwick loses all sense of time while running clinics, and what that says about altered states
00:38:38 – A journey through the ancient history of horse worship, from Epona and Xenophon to Roman cavalry and Mongolian shamanism
00:44:49 – What it might look like to bring ritual and reverence back into everyday training
01:09:20 – Warwick on his real job as a teacher: "busting" people's long-held truths
01:27:00 – The henbane story, and how intention changes the "energetic signature" of an action
01:41:00 – How a Horse Boy fox hunt became a bloodless, inclusive tradition for kids with special needs and refugee children
01:51:24 – Ancient horse divination rituals from the Baltic to Rajasthan, and the Hadith reading that closes the episode
Memorable Moments from the Episode
00:56:21 – Warwick's story about trying to buy "starter cord" from a bemused hardware store clerk
01:01:14 – Rupert admits he prays before every clinic or talk, weaving together Christian and Germanic horse-god iconography
01:28:56 – The Elizabeth Gilbert and Raya story: the same purse-saving gesture, told twice, with two very different meanings behind it
01:57:15 – Warwick closes with a line from the Hadith that, as he puts it, ties the whole conversation together
01:59:24 – Rupert describes something "coming out of the cliff" and speaking to him during a retreat in Sweden
Warwick Schiller https://warwickschiller.com
Journey On Podcast Warwick's own podcast, referenced throughout the conversation as the place he and Rupert first began discussing these ideas
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Links to books and products may include affiliate tracking. We may earn a commission if you make a purchase, at no extra cost to you. Thank you for supporting the show.

✨ "Everyone knows that the conqueror writes his story." – Louis Hook
✨ "I stood up. I told my son, 'That's not true.' And from there, I started a research path." – Louis Hook
Louis Hook is a founding member of the Compton Cowboys, the decades-old therapeutic riding program based in Compton, Los Angeles, and previously featured on Rupert's Equine Assisted World podcast. He carries an MIT PhD program background and a Harvard Business School education, and for the last several years has redirected that analytical training toward an independent research project: documenting the African cavalry traditions written out of mainstream history. The catalyst was watching the film The Woman King and being stunned to see a Black cavalry on screen — a moment that sent him down a research path he is still on today.
Rupert brings his own family history into the conversation, including a 19th-century surcoat, chain mail, and sword taken from a Mahdist cavalryman at the Battle of Omdurman by his ancestor, George Spotswood Sparks. Together they trace the arc of African equestrian power — the Moors' 800-year hold on southern Spain, Mansa Musa's cavalry-protected gold empire in Mali, the Kanem-Bornu Empire and Sokoto Caliphate, and the horse cultures of the Sahel that, as Rupert notes, never went away and still produce true Barb horses in Senegal today.
From there the conversation moves to the American side of the story — the "brain drain" model of slavery that targeted skilled horsemen, blacksmiths, and rice farmers, and the land-grant gated-horse tradition of East Texas that Rupert witnessed firsthand. A wide-ranging, deeply researched conversation.
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What You'll Learn in This Episode
00:01:44 – Rupert's family connection to African horse cultures, sparked by a 19th-century surcoat and chain mail taken from a Mahdist cavalryman
00:07:23 – How watching The Woman King sent Louis on a research journey into Africa's erased cavalry history
00:11:19 – The Moors' 800-year conquest of southern Spain and their overlooked African identity
00:23:00 – Mansa Musa's cavalry-protected gold empire, and Louis's case that he ranks among history's five greatest men
00:35:19 – Why true Barb horses survive today only in Senegal
00:37:43 – How the Catholic Church whitewashed Christian imagery and helped embed a racial hierarchy
00:53:29 – The "brain drain" model of slavery — how expert horsemen, blacksmiths, and rice farmers were targeted and bought at a premium
00:58:00 – The land-grant horse culture of East Texas, where freed slave families built a gated-horse tradition still alive today
01:13:29 – Louis and Rupert trace the likely African roots of dressage rising star Nashon Cook
01:30:04 – The "horses to heal, horses to harm" philosophy — how the same training system can wound or heal
Memorable Moments from the Episode
00:04:02 – Rupert describes the surcoat, chain mail, and sword hanging on his family's wall, taken from a Mahdist cavalryman by his ancestor
00:09:36 – Louis recounts standing up in the theater during The Woman King and telling his son, "That's not true"
01:00:13 – Rupert recalls roughly 200 Black riders on gated horses passing his Texas home, beer trucks blasting hip-hop
01:19:43 – Louis describes the emotional experience of visiting "The Last Bath," the Ghanaian site where enslaved people were bathed before auction
01:34:38 – Louis walks through using AI to fact-check erased history, using the Benjamin Franklin slavery example
Guest Contact & Links
Louis Hook's book, Black in the Saddle: From African Cavalries to Modern Cowboys https://amzn.to/4htcuPf
Louis is a founding member of the Compton Cowboys, the Compton, Los Angeles-based therapeutic riding program also featured on Rupert's Equine Assisted World podcast. https://educatedhoodrat.com

About Louis Hook
Louis Hook is a founding member of the Compton Cowboys, a therapeutic riding program serving Compton, Los Angeles for several decades. He brings an MIT PhD program background and a Harvard Business School education to his independent research into the African cavalry cultures erased from mainstream history. He is the author of Black in the Saddle: From African Cavalries to Modern Cowboys, with a second volume in progress tracing his own ancestral roots to Sierra Leone and Burkina Faso.

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✨ "I've never used Baucher to train anything. I've always used Baucher to heal." – Nahshon Cook
✨ "Does your horse feel good after you've done what you've done with them? ... That's connection." – Nahshon Cook

Nahshon Cook is a classical dressage trainer based in Colorado whose path began riding donated horses as a kid at the Urban Farm at Stapleton, an inner-city youth program in Denver. Two mentors — Cynthia Spalding and former Cadre Noir rider Jean-François Fabier — introduced him to dressage before he was out of his teens, and after a detour through divinity school, Southeast Asia, and a stint training show and race horses in Thailand, he returned to Colorado and built a reputation for taking on horses other trainers had given up on.
The conversation moves through Nahshon's approach to kissing spine, poll and TMJ tension, and how he reads a horse's tongue as a barometer for what's happening throughout the rest of the body. He walks through three distinct flexion positions he uses to unlock the hips, stifle, and hocks, and describes rehabilitating horses diagnosed with DSLD and a herniated disc using Baucher-based flexion work, treats, and nervous-system regulation.
A rich, wide-ranging conversation that moves between technical dressage detail and questions of safety, mercy, and what it means to truly listen to a horse.

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All Books Mentioned: https://longridehome.com/books

What You'll Learn in This Episode
00:02:07 – How riding at the Urban Farm at Stapleton in Denver opened the door to dressage
00:06:13 – What mentor Cynthia Spalding taught him about feel, not just technique
00:11:21 – Learning from ex-Cadre Noir rider Jean-François Fabier and matching training to each horse's breed
00:19:18 – Leaving divinity school for Southeast Asia, and training horses in Thailand
00:31:14 – Why he swore off training for clients, and how horses get used as "bait"
01:05:13 – The real cause of kissing spine: tension in the poll and TMJ
01:07:38 – How to use a noseband correctly so it helps the horse feel safe
01:15:44 – Reading the tongue as a map to the horse's fascia and poll
01:26:16 – The three flexion positions that unlock the hips, stifle, and hocks
01:30:45 – Treats, poll work, and grooming tools for regulating the nervous system
Memorable Moments from the Episode
00:38:31 – A client asks a 15-year-old Nahshon to fake a South African accent to hide his age
00:49:34 – Healing a chronically colicking horse with stones and touch
01:14:33 – Popping a horse's spine and ribs back into place with Baucher flexions
01:28:06 – A herniated-disc horse's dramatic physical release during a flexion session
01:55:15 – Nahshon closes the conversation with an original poem
Guest Contact & Links
https://www.facebook.com/NahshonCookHorsemanship/
About Nahshon Cook
Nahshon Cook is a classical dressage trainer based in Colorado who began riding at 13 through an inner-city youth program and went on to study with mentors from two different dressage traditions before he turned 18. His approach centers on reading tension in the poll, TMJ, and tongue as the key to unlocking a horse's back and hind end, and he's known for taking on horses — including cases of DSLD, PSSM2, and herniated discs — that other trainers and vets had written off. He now holds small working gatherings in Wisconsin rather than teaching public clinics.

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Links to books and products may include affiliate tracking. We may earn a commission if you make a purchase, at no extra cost to you. Thank you for supporting the show.

✨ "Your horse does not anticipate. He simply reads your mind." – Dominique Barbier
✨ "I want people to smile when they ride, because if they don't smile, why are you riding?" – Dominique Barbier
Dominique Barbier grew up in France with no horsey family background, but an early and almost uncanny sensitivity to horses that set him apart from the biomechanical training he encountered in England and France. After training and competing across multiple disciplines, he made his way to Portugal to study for two years with the legendary Nuno Oliveira, absorbing lessons that would go on to shape the French-Portuguese school of dressage he now teaches worldwide from his base in California.
This conversation centers on Don Giovanni, the volatile, nearly-destroyed stallion who became Dominique's greatest teacher, and the three-step process of "getting out of the way" that Dominique developed to earn his trust. Dominique and Rupert also dig into descente de main and descente de jambe, the difference between riding physically and riding mentally, and Dominique's blunt take on spurs, competition, and the pursuit of joy over technique.
A candid, wide-ranging two-hour conversation from one of dressage's most original voices.
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All Books Mentioned: https://longridehome.com/books
What You'll Learn in This Episode
00:03:00 – Dominique's unusual early sensitivity to horses and how his father let him follow his passion
00:12:00 – Why Dominique says a horse doesn't anticipate — he reads your mind
00:16:00 – The nine months Dominique couldn't ride, and what he discovered about the intellectual mind blocking connection
00:20:00 – Dominique's 90/10 philosophy: staying out of the horse's way
00:39:00 – How Dominique met and nearly lost the chance to save Don Giovanni, the horse who taught him the most
00:48:00 – The three-step process Dominique used to earn Don Giovanni's trust
00:52:00 – Reading a horse's true preferences through nature, play, and "crazy time"
01:04:00 – The story behind descente de main, descente de jambe from Dominique's time with Nuno Oliveira
01:13:00 – Why Dominique now teaches people to smile when they ride
01:50:00 – Fear as simply "what you don't know," and how Dominique helps students move through it
Memorable Moments from the Episode
00:42:00 – The dramatic story of winning the right to bring Don Giovanni home — a horse marked for destruction
01:26:00 – Dominique's candid reflection on Nuno Oliveira's complicated inner life, and why he never wanted to "be" his master
01:42:00 – Dominique's confession about once owning 300 spurs, and why he regrets it
02:00:00 – Dominique reveals his upcoming book, simply titled Consciousness
02:16:00 – Dominique's parting invitation to share a glass of Merlot with Rupert in California
Guest Contact & Links
Dominique Barbier Website: https://dominiquebarbier.com
About Dominique Barbier
Dominique Barbier is one of the leading figures in classical dressage, known as an exponent of the French-Portuguese school. Raised in France with no equestrian family background, he trained across multiple disciplines before spending two formative years studying under the legendary Nuno Oliveira in Portugal. He has authored numerous books, including Dressage for the New Age, with a new book titled Consciousness forthcoming, and continues to teach and train worldwide from his base in California. His approach emphasizes visualization, presence, and reading what a horse genuinely enjoys over rigid technique.
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Affiliate Disclosure:
Links to books and products may include affiliate tracking. We may earn a commission if you make a purchase, at no extra cost to you. Thank you for supporting the show.