PCC Local Time

Structural change in local government is rare. Therefore, we don’t often get the opportunity to learn how it works.
My three guests today, Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman were invited to work with a group of engaged citizens in Millcreek Township, Erie County to shepard a community making its third attempt in fifteen years to restructure their local government.
Millcreek is one of the largest second-class townships in Pennsylvania with nearly 55,000 residents, a sophisticated range of services, and all the complexity that comes with governing a community that size. Yet for decades, it has been run by three elected supervisors who, at their first meeting after each election, appoint themselves as the township’s full-time municipal administrators. This does not provide for a separation of powers between the people who set policy and the people who carry it out and creates a vacuum in the continuity of services.
This episode is in many respects a rare master class in how to form a study commission and carry a recommendation through to the voters. But more importantly, it’s a frank, insider conversation about the dynamics behind the scenes, including the interviews, the resistance, the attacks, and what it takes to stay focused and transparent when the process gets hard.
This podcast episode has been created in partnership with APMM, the association for professional municipal managers to enhance learning, leadership development and networking.
Jerry Andree spent three decades as Township Manager of Cranberry Township in Butler County Pennsylvania and has been a steady presence in local government leadership across Pennsylvania. Even in retirement, he continues to teach, advise, and support communities working through complex challenges.
Toby Cordek served more than 35 years as Town Manager of McCandless in Allegheny County and has worked across nearly every aspect of local government. Today, he continues to mentor leaders and support municipalities through consulting and executive search work.
Michael Foreman brings over 30 years of experience with the Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development, where he advised municipalities on policy, finance, and operations. He now continues that work as a consultant supporting local governments across the region.
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🎧 Episode Timestamps
00:00 – Opening: Why this story matters
Nancy frames the rarity of structural change in local government and introduces Millcreek as a “third attempt” story with real stakes.
01:30 – Guest introductions
Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman are introduced with their backgrounds and roles.
03:00 – What makes Millcreek different
Three-member board of supervisors acting as full-time administrators—an unusual structure for a township of this size.
05:30 – The core problem emerges
Lack of professional management; solicitor acting as de facto manager; growing complexity of the township.
07:45 – Why residents pushed for change
Blended roles (legislative, executive, administrative) and growing disconnect between governance and community expectations.
09:00 – Public access and transparency issues
Meeting times and structure raise questions about accessibility and responsiveness to residents.
10:30 – Clarifying the real issue
Not about removing elected officials—but clarifying roles and introducing professional management.
12:00 – How a study commission works
Michael walks through the legal process: ballot question, election, structure, and responsibilities.
15:00 – Inside the research process
Interviews with department heads, supervisors, and comparisons with other townships.
17:00 – Why council-manager emerged as the best fit
Separation of powers, stability, and professional administration.
19:00 – What the interviews revealed
Lack of continuity, shifting oversight, and absence of administrative expertise.
21:00 – A “vacuum of continuity”
Toby reflects on what was felt inside the organization—competence present, but no administrative anchor.
22:30 – Resistance from leadership
Supervisors not supportive; difficult environment for employees and interviews.
23:30 – The decision point: vote for change
Study commission evaluates options and moves toward a council-manager model.
27:00 – Voter approval and timeline to 2028
Final report, public hearing, and decisive vote; transition period begins.
28:00 – The “secret sauce” begins
Shift from structure to human dynamics—how the commission actually worked together.
29:00 – Building trust and momentum
Early meetings, “symbiosis,” and a nurturing leadership approach.
31:00 – Organizing the commission like a governing body
Committees form; members begin practicing how a council operates.
32:30 – Facing attacks and staying grounded
Public criticism, accusations, and the discipline to “keep the high ground.”
34:30 – Who were the commission members?
Diverse, accomplished residents who largely didn’t know each other before serving.
36:30 – What made the group effective
Patience, empathy, discipline—and a shared commitment to the community.
37:00 – Understanding resistance
Cultural, political, and financial incentives behind opposition to change.
39:30 – The work is not finished
Transition phase begins; questions about hiring a professional manager.
40:30 – The transition challenge
No formal roadmap after the vote; need for a transition committee and continued leadership.
42:00 – Administrative code and control
Who shapes the new system—and whether it enables or constrains the manager role.
45:00 – “Poison pills” to watch for
Risks in implementation: micromanagement, weak role definition, hiring decisions.
47:00 – Signs of early progress
Evening meetings added; continued civic engagement by commission members.
48:30 – One chance to get it right
Importance of early leadership and governance alignment.
49:00 – The first manager will be tested
Discussion of political pressure, expectations, and leadership resilience.
50:30 – What kind of leader is needed?
Experience, toughness, and ability to navigate conflict and culture change.
52:00 – Community support for change
Strong voter backing and desire for professional leadership.
53:00 – Closing reflections
“You only get one opportunity to do it right.”
54:00 – Final thoughts: democracy in action
Guests reflect on the meaning of the process and community engagement.

Maggie Dobbs is a trained city planner (Rutgers) who spent a decade writing comprehensive plans across Montgomery County before stepping into her current role as Borough Manager of Narberth, Pennsylvania, a half-square-mile community tucked inside Lower Merion Township just outside of Philadelphia. She arrived after a period of leadership turnover. What she found was not a small job. It was a dense one.
Host Brandon Ford and co-host Nancy Hess have a wide ranging conversation with Maggie that moves through the real experience of borough management: the math of running a full municipal government — police, public works, library, eleven miles of road — with fifteen people and a fraction of a township’s budget; the intimacy that makes boroughs special and the same intimacy that makes criticism land close to the heart; and the reality that wearing every hat in the building demands more knowledge, not less, than specializing in a larger organization.
Maggie is candid about walking into a community that had cycled through five managers in four years, what it took to steady that ship, and why her focus is on building standard operating procedures so the day-to-day can run itself. Along the way, the crew explores Narberth’s housing story — how a historically working-class rail town became the highest median sales price in Montgomery County — and what that shift means for a community once referred to as “Mayberry,” still sorting out who it is.
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“My job gets in the way of me doing my job.”— Maggie Dobbs — on the borough manager’s capacity problem“Your hats are wearing hats. It’s a lot.”— Maggie Dobbs — on generalist demands in a small-staff borough
"If I had a campaign slogan, it would be policy and procedure. My big push has been standard operating procedures. I want to think less about the day-to-day. I want the day-to-day to essentially run itself because we've already figured it out. I don't want to have to answer questions I've answered again." — Maggie Dobbs, on her first-year management strategy

🔥 Hot Takes
Five Realities Before You Take the Seat
Your job will crowd out your job. Protect space for strategic work.
SOPs are not paperwork. They are oxygen.
Fill your blind spots early. Pride is expensive.
Proactive information reduces political friction.
Borough leadership is not smaller. It’s closer.

Timestamps
0:00 – Introducing Maggie and Narberth
1:18 – The “donut hole” geography inside Lower Merion
2:09 – Maggie’s path: NJ Dept. of Agriculture → Rutgers → Planning
3:30 – Montgomery County Planning Commission & contract planning model
5:49 – Writing four comprehensive plans; interviewing hundreds
8:12 – Planners as connectors in local government
9:36 – Being tapped for the manager role
10:01 – First-year lessons; “90% of the day is listening”
12:36 – Compliance vs. innovation — the Venn diagram problem
13:20 – Shared services with Lower Merion
17:45 – Joint traffic study collaboration
21:29 – Pennsylvania’s “nugget” borough system
24:02 – Borough vs. township — professional fit
27:08 – Narberth staffing reality (4 admin, 6 police, 5 public works)
30:00 – Affordable housing question
31:05 – Narberth’s housing transformation
36:10 – Generalist vs. specialist municipal structures
40:47 – SOPs, website overhaul, proactive communication
42:00 – Five managers in four years — rebuilding trust
44:34 – The lunch that changed her mind
49:57 – Finance gaps & building a support network
52:27 – Who thrives in borough leadership?
54:31 – Closing reflections

There is a polite fiction in local government that serving “at the pleasure of the governing body” rests securely on mutual trust. Often it does. Increasingly, it can feel more fragile.
In today’s political climate, the employment relationship between elected officials and their chief administrative officer deserves a closer examination. What protections actually exist? Who advocates for the manager when circumstances shift?
In this episode of Generation on the Rise, Eden Ratliff and Dave Pribulka sit down with Brad Gotshall to explore what it means to become, in his words, a “free agent.” They examine contracts and severance, and they also confront questions of reputation, professional identity, and the personal weight of transitions that can be political, strategic, or simply inevitable.
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⏱️ Timestamps
00:00 – Cold open, book banter, introductions
04:30 – Brad’s background: elected official at 17 to professional manager
09:30 – Transition to Warren County and “free agency”
11:30 – Protecting yourself as a manager: personal and professional buckets
13:30 – Contract negotiations: learning the hard way
16:00 – Do managers need representation?
19:00 – The loneliness of severance negotiations
22:00 – Lower Paxton: no contract, negotiated exit
26:00 – Recruiter’s role in negotiations
31:00 – Severance pushback and board dynamics
37:00 – Creative contract structures (Rehoboth example)
39:30 – Should managers use agents?
41:30 – Legal review vs. negotiation support
43:00 – Preserving reputation under NDAs
45:30 – Building a personal brand before crisis hits
48:00 – No-fault divorce vs. political dismissal
50:00 – Wrap-up and Part Two teaser

Eden and Dave are joined by guest Jeffrey Stonehill, Borough Manager of Chambersburg Pennsylvania. They begin with an examination of how crises today differ from those Jeffrey encountered when he began in the field. Although they traverse the doom and gloom of dealing with crisis in the profession, they return to the core reasons they remain in the field.
Contrasting generational perspectives and recognition of the vulnerability that comes with commitment and transitions make this episode a memorable one.
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“If everything is a crisis, nothing is.” - EdenYou have to have a little bit of self-confidence. I will find the place, I will find the role, I will find the journey. It's like the actor—the Broadway play closes, what do they do the next day? You need to have confidence that it will work itself out. - Jeffrey"There is a lightness of being after you're gone that almost hits as you're walking out the door. That's when I realized how much pressure I'd been under. That feeling is quickly replaced by this feeling of not being a part of something bigger than yourself anymore. When that ends, especially if it ends abruptly, it's a hard realization to wake up one morning and your calendar is empty." - Dave

Hot Takes:

🔥Crisis has always been part of the job. The pressure isn’t new — the speed is.
🔥Not every issue deserves full emotional escalation.
🔥Fire Suppression ≠ Fire Prevention. Be proactive.
🔥 The communities you serve will continue without you—and that's okay.
🔥Leaving a community requires a grieving process, even when it's your choice to leave.
🔥The work is meaningful. Despite the pressure, leaders would not trade the experience.

Timestamps
00:00 - Cold open and greetings
03:47 - Welcome and introduction to Generation on the Rise
04:42 - Introducing first-time guest Jeffrey Stonehill
06:32 - Jeffrey’s career journey: From SUNY grad to 40-year manager
08:15 - The “crisis as normal” phenomenon in local government
11:45 - Why municipalities attract constant crisis
15:20 - The evolution of pressure: Then vs. now
19:30 - Harrisburg bankruptcy and advisory board experience
24:10 - The psychological toll of perpetual emergency management
28:45 - Learning to disconnect (or trying to)
33:20 - The loneliness of municipal management
37:50 - Why managers struggle to share burdens
42:15 - Transitioning between communities: The Disney tradition
45:40 - The grieving process when you leave a community
49:18 - Taking care of yourself and your family
50:05 - Despite everything: Why we love this profession
52:03 - Closing thoughts and next week’s preview

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"We are all one elected official away from a hostile work environment.” - Dave
“Yeah, but if it gets that bad, why would you stay?" - Eden
Today on Generation on the Rise, what starts as tactical shop talk evolves into a revealing examination of professional isolation, with Dave pushing hard on systemic advocacy gaps while Eden counters with self-reliance pragmatism. By the end, they’re debating whether the profession’s recruitment crisis stems from lack of awareness or legitimate wariness about the job’s inherent instability.
“Labor relations are high risk, high reward. When it goes bad, it goes bad fast.” - Brandon
Hot Takes:
Generational dynamics within unions have shifted bargaining leverage.
Don’t wait until negotiation year to build trust.
Personnel management is on-the-job training, no matter your preparation.
Managers lack advocacy structures..
Geographic mobility is a professional survival skill, not a character flaw.
The profession needs better advocacy and mentorship structures.

Timestamps
00:00 – Sustainability banter, ICMA programs
03:00 – Topic launch: manager’s role in HR
04:30 – Why personnel issues are hardest to prepare for
06:00 – HR professionals vs textbook training
08:30 – Generational workforce dynamics
10:00 – Labor relations as high-risk / high-reward
12:00 – Collective bargaining philosophy differences
18:00 – “Sacrificing the unborn” and pension negotiations
22:00 – Relationship building with unions outside negotiation years
29:00 – Transparency and negotiating in public
33:00 – The manager as an employee: who advocates for us?
38:00 – Hostile work environment discussion
44:00 – The limits of formal support structures
50:00 – Informal networks and senior advisors
53:00 – ICMA’s role: management vs manager debate
55:00 – Closing reflections on the realities of the profession