On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with observations about the ongoing government shutdown, how it could be a strategic mistake for Republicans, and why this political standoff is best understood as a “quasi-election” about the rule of law itself.
Then Frum is joined by Lord Charles Moore, the authorized biographer of Margaret Thatcher, to mark the centenary of her birth. Together, they look back on Thatcher’s transformation of Britain, from nationalized stagnation to a revitalized free-market democracy, and her alliance with Ronald Reagan, which helped bring the Cold War to a close. Moore explains how Thatcher’s belief in “law-based liberty” and her defense of national sovereignty set her apart from both libertarians and nationalists, and why her example of disciplined, principled leadership feels more and more distant in the politics of today.
In the book segment, David discusses Stefan Zweig’s The World of Yesterday, and reflects on exile, despair, and why holding on to hope, rather than despair, matters when history suddenly turns dark.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
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Bring Back High-Stakes School Testing
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the strange and revealing controversy over Donald Trump’s rumored commemorative coin and what it says about the culture of flattery and self-abasement now defining MAGA politics.
Then David is joined by former U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings for a candid look at the crisis in American education. Spellings, a key architect of No Child Left Behind and now president of the Bipartisan Policy Center, explains why U.S. test scores began to stagnate years before COVID and why the pandemic only deepened an accountability collapse already underway. They discuss the successes in states like Mississippi, the wasted billions in federal relief funds, and the political backlash against testing that, Spellings argues, has left millions of children behind.
Finally, Frum turns to art and history with his discussion of The Judgment of Paris by Ross King, a story of how the impressionists overturned the art establishment of their time, and what it teaches about how the future judges the present.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
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The Rise of Technofascists
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the malicious prosecution of James Comey and what it reveals about Donald Trump’s growing power over the justice system. He explains how the United States, unlike other advanced democracies, has allowed prosecutions to become instruments of presidential will, why Watergate-era norms of independence have eroded, and how the Supreme Court’s recent rulings have accelerated the drift toward one-man rule.
Then Frum is joined by Sam Harris—author, podcaster, and creator of the Waking Up app—for a conversation about Silicon Valley’s dark political evolution toward authoritarianism. They discuss how the emancipatory optimism of the early internet gave way to surveillance, manipulation, and the shattering of shared reality; why prominent tech figures are embracing authoritarian politics; and how conspiracy, anti-vaccine movements, and the pursuit of profit have corroded the culture of innovation.
Finally, David closes with a discussion of Robert Proctor’s The Nazi War on Cancer. He notes how the Nazi regime advanced anti-smoking and cancer-prevention campaigns even as it committed atrocities, tracing the deeper links between politics and health. Drawing a parallel to today, David connects that history to the rise of the MAHA movement: where anti-vaccine ideology and wellness grifts overlap with MAGA politics, fueled by distrust of experts and a refusal of solidarity and empathy with the sick and suffering. He argues that the Trump administration is recasting health as a test of personal virtue to reinforce its authoritarian project.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener.
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1:00:09
Why Assassinations Shaped the 1960s and Haunt Us Again
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum argues that President Donald Trump is making a miscalculation in his second term. Instead of consolidating power before plundering the state, Trump has reversed the sequence, imposing massive tariffs that raise prices on ordinary Americans, flaunting foreign wealth, and enriching his inner circle at public expense. Frum speculates that by impoverishing the public before securing control, Trump is exposing himself to serious political risks and that Americans must resist the temptation to be passive, hopeless spectators.
Then Frum speaks with the historian Geoffrey Kabaservice about political violence, the assassinations and upheavals of the 1960s and 1970s, and what those episodes teach us about the threats facing America today. They revisit the murders that reshaped the era, consider how violence changed the course of politics, and draw out the parallels and differences between then and now: from polarization to technology to the shifting role of institutions.
Finally, Frum closes with a book talk on Emily Brontë’s Wuthering Heights, reflecting on its enduring power and dark insights into human nature.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener.
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1:00:14
The Preventable Return of Deadly Diseases
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on President Donald Trump’s repeated delays to enforce the congressionally mandated TikTok ban. He explains how Trump’s pattern of ignoring laws, whether by inventing tariffs, bypassing Congress on spending, or granting de facto immunity to allies, erodes the foundation of our constitutional government.
Then David is joined by the historian Kyle Harper, author of Plagues Upon the Earth, for a conversation about infectious disease and the politics of vaccination. They trace humanity’s long struggle against killers such as smallpox, polio, and measles, and the scientific breakthroughs that transformed life expectancy. Harper explains how mistrust, misinformation, and polarization have fueled a resurgence of measles in the 2020s, even after it had been eradicated in the United States. Kyle and David also discuss what Rome can teach us about living with plagues, why public trust is essential to public health, and why the next pandemic will find us less prepared than we were for COVID-19.
Finally, David ends the podcast with a discussion of Carl Schmitt’s The Concept of the Political. He examines how Schmitt’s claim that politics is defined by the division of friend and enemy is influencing modern authoritarian thinkers in America.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener.
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To defend democracy, one has to believe in it. To believe in democracy, one has to understand it. Where it came from. How it works. What’s true. What’s not. What others did before you. How it could be better. How to make a difference.
Each week, The David Frum Show digs deep into the big questions people have about our society, explains the progress Americans have made together, and reminds us that the American idea is worth defending.
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