Lead Culture with Jenni Catron

Trust is the thing every leader depends on and almost no one builds on purpose. In this conversation, Jenni sits down with Dr. Rob McKenna, founder of WiLD Leaders and author of Whole Leaders, Wild Trust, to talk about why trust is a byproduct of leader development, not a topic you can lecture your way into.
Dr. Rob has spent decades running longitudinal leadership studies, including a six-and-a-half-year study following 120 leaders in aerospace, plus research with several thousand engineers moving into leadership roles and a multi-year study of leaders in large church organizations. What emerged surprised him: as teams did the work of understanding their own competence, motivation, and purpose together, they started trusting each other — without anyone naming trust as the goal.
Jenni and Dr. Rob dig into why trust feels like air (essential, invisible, impossible to grab), what happens when a CEO's read on their culture is rosier than their employees', and the single question a leader can bring to their team on Monday morning that opens the door to real candor.
What you'll hear
Why leader development and trust building turn out to be the same work
Whether trust is genuinely harder to build today, and what social media may be doing to our appetite for candor
The trust quadrant: team trust on one axis, organizational trust on the other — and what it means to be in the "jungle" versus the "stronghold"
The uncomfortable pattern in the data: leaders of low-trust organizations tend to think things are better than they are, while high-trust CEOs are accurate or under-rate their own culture
Why the leaders most afraid to measure trust are usually the ones who already know it's low
Jenni on the delta between how leaders experience culture and how employees do
Connect with Dr. Rob McKenna
WiLD Leaders: wildleaders.org
Contact the team — contact@wildleaders.org
The Leading Under Pressure Inventory and other assessments — wildleaders.org/the-wild-toolkit
Book: Whole Leaders, Wild Trust
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In this episode, Jenni talks with leadership development specialist and author Adam Tarnow about why middle management feels like an impossible role, and why it may actually be the most important one in an organization. They unpack the tension of carrying responsibility without full control, and Adam shares a practical framework for navigating the stress of leadership without burning out. In this episode, Adam explains why the middle is where execution happens, why so many managers feel stuck in a “valley,” and how leaders can regain a sense of agency by focusing on what they can control. He also offers a simple sentence-based tool from his book The Fog of Work that helps leaders move from overwhelm to action.
Key Topics
Jenni introduces the episode by framing culture as either a strategic asset or a liability, especially during growth, merger, or crisis.
Adam shares why he wrote The Fog of Work and why middle managers became his focus after years of living in that role himself.
They discuss how middle management used to be a respected position, and how pop culture turned it into a punchline.
Adam explains why middle managers are often the “verbs in the sentence” of an organization - the people who make execution happen.
The conversation highlights the pressure of being a player-coach: managing your own work while leading others.
Jenni names the “they” problem - the tendency to blame vague forces instead of recognizing personal influence and agency.
Adam describes middle management as a valley where problems roll downhill and collect, creating stress, ambiguity, and accountability without full control.
He introduces the idea that the real question is not “How do I get out?” but “How do I get through?”
Adam shares the fog clearing sentence: “I don’t control blank, but I do control blank, so I will blank.”
They connect the middle of an organization to the middle of a story, where growth, character, and transformation happen.
Jenni and Adam both emphasize that leaders can improve culture by focusing on what they can influence directly, especially within their own teams.
The episode closes with encouragement for senior leaders to equip middle managers with practical tools, not just expectations.
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In this episode, Jenni Catron and her 11-year-old nephew River explore the fundamentals of team culture through engaging stories and insights. River shares his unique perspective on support, communication, focus, and the impact of individual roles in shaping a positive culture.

Takeaways:
Support is the most important aspect of culture.
Effective communication is crucial for team success.
Focus and commitment drive team performance.
Everyone has a role in shaping culture, regardless of age.
Positive culture can be maintained or ruined by individual actions.

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the episode and guest River
01:00 Why we call it Switch Week and family traditions
01:30 River introduces himself and his love for sports
02:27 River shares his thoughts on support in culture
02:56 Support in sports and teams
03:23 The importance of communication in team culture
04:21 Learning from communication in pickleball
05:16 Communication during baseball games
05:45 The impact of fast plays and clear communication
07:16 Focus and distraction in sports
08:11 The responsibility of leaders and team members in culture
09:12 The influence of positivity and encouragement
09:36 Recognizing individual roles in culture
10:31 Culture as a fragile ecosystem
11:00 River’s perspective on culture and youth influence
11:31 Closing thoughts and call to action
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In this episode of Lead Culture, Jenni Catron shares what she learned during an extended summer break and why stepping back can be essential for sustainable leadership. She reflects on the tension between doing and being, the challenge of slowing down, and how time away revealed deeper questions about purpose, significance, and identity.Jenni opens with a reminder that culture does not take care of itself and that leaders must lead with intention. She then shares how her sabbatical included time with friends and family, reading, rest, and intentional disconnection from social media, email, and Slack. Even though the break was restful, it also surfaced a struggle many overachievers face: feeling significant only when they are productive.A major takeaway from the episode is that nothing magical happened on sabbatical — and that was the point. Instead of chasing big ideas or a new vision, Jenni focused on stillness, presence, and making space for what matters most. She describes how this time helped her recognize the importance of creative space, mental rest, and the right-brain work of meaning-making and reflection.Jenni also connects her personal experience to a broader cultural insight, referencing Arthur Brooks’ research on how modern life often overvalues efficiency and problem-solving while undernourishing meaning, creativity, and human connection. She shares how this tension was made even more vivid in the wake of an EF3 tornado in her community, where people rallied together and reminded her that people are the point.
Key Takeaways
Healthy leaders need rhythms that sustain them.
Rest is productive when it creates space for meaning and clarity.
Leaders often confuse being with doing.
Creativity, stillness, and reflection are essential leadership practices.
People should remain the priority, even in busy or crisis-filled seasons.
Questions Jenni Asks Leaders
What can you do that disrupts your rhythms and lowers your heart rate?
How can you disconnect your doing from your being?
Are you making space for quiet, creativity, and presence?
What rhythms do you need to lead in a healthy, sustainable way?
Resources Mentioned
Invitation to Solitude and Silence by Ruth Haley Barton
The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer
The Sabbatical Journey by Alan Briggs
The Meaning of Life by Arthur Brooks
Jenni’s book Clout: Discover and Unleash Your God-given Influence
Closing Encouragement
Jenni ends by encouraging leaders to protect the rhythms that keep them healthy, purposeful, and present — not only for their own well-being, but for the health of their teams and cultures. To connect with Jenni, email jennicatron@get4sight.com.
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As the 4Sight Group celebrates its 10th anniversary and Jenni Catron marks a personal milestone year, she shares why she is stepping away for a four-week sabbatical for the first time in her career.
In this honest conversation, Jenni reflects on nearly three decades of nonstop work, the lessons she has learned about burnout, and the importance of creating margin before exhaustion forces it. She discusses what led her to make this decision, what she hopes to gain from the experience, and how intentional rest can help leaders gain perspective, renew their energy, and lead well for the long haul.
Whether a month-long sabbatical feels possible or not, this episode offers a challenge for every leader: What would intentional rest look like for you this summer? From disconnecting on vacation to stepping away from social media or simply creating space to slow down, Jenni encourages listeners to prioritize rhythms of rest that support healthy leadership and thriving organizations.
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