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A Hero's Journey: With Guests Ethan Gilsdorf, David Fajgenbaum & Kurt Gray
Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins, Katniss Everdeen, the main characters of many great stories, they all have one thing in common: the shape of their journey. From answering the call to adventure, to undergoing tests of character and strengths, to triumphantly returning home forever changed. It's a classic narrative structure that's inspired countless tales from ancient myths to modern media. But it's not just great for entertainment. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at how this specific type of storytelling can be leveraged to make your life more manageable, exciting, and meaningful. Writer and performer Ethan Gilsdorf has written and spoken about how his childhood obsession with the fantasy role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons saved his life. For David Fajgenbaum, a physician and associate professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, what saved his life was sheer determination and faith, but sharing his story has given new meaning to the incredible feats he's overcome. David is also the co-founder and president of the Castleman Disease Collaborative Network and co-founder and president of Every Cure, a non-profit that helps repurpose drugs for multiple diseases. He's the author of Chasing My Cure: A Doctor's Race to Turn Hope Into Action.Katy speaks with Kurt Gray, a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, about what happens when you tell the story of your life in the style of a "hero's journey." Kurt directs the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding. He's also the author of a new book out in January 2025 called Outraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics, which you can pre-order now.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the show, visit schwab.com/podcast. If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts.Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed and Charles Schwab & Co. expressly disclaims any liability, including incidental or consequential damages, arising from errors or omissions in this publication. All corporate names and market data shown above are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Supporting documentation for any claims or statistical information is available upon request.Investing involves risk including loss of principal.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.{1024-0BGR)
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Rebel With a Cause: With Guests Francis Kelly & Christopher Bryan
Most parents encounter resistance from their children. Perhaps when the kids are young and turning their noses up at vegetables, or when they're teenagers and balking at curfews or dress codes.So what's the best way to encourage good choices in the face of a rebellious kid? Or a rebellious adult, for that matter?In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the surprising ways that resistance to authority can be leveraged for positive change. During the mid 1990s, the "Truth" anti-youth smoking campaign was everywhere. Many TV ads cleverly harnessed the teenage penchant for rebellion, using guerilla filming techniques and revealing hidden truths about smoking known to the tobacco industry for years. The campaign drastically lowered youth smoking rates and remains one of the most effective campaigns in history. Fran Kelly was on the frontlines, leading the advertising campaign at Arnold Worldwide. Francis "Fran" Kelly is the president and CEO of branding consulting firm CEOVIEW Branding. He was previously the president and CEO of global advertising agency Arnold Worldwide.Next, Katy speaks with Christopher Bryan about his research on leveraging rebellion as a way to encourage healthy eating among adolescents. You can learn more in his paper titled "Harnessing Adolescent Values to Motivate Healthier Eating." Christopher Bryan is an associate professor of business, government, and society at the University of Texas at Austin's McCombs School of Business. He is also co-founder and co-director of the Texas Behavioral Science and Policy Institute.Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed and Charles Schwab & Co. expressly disclaims any liability, including incidental or consequential damages, arising from errors or omissions in this publication. All corporate names and market data shown above are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Supporting documentation for any claims or statistical information is available upon request. Investing involves risk including loss of principal.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0824-H4BA)
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35:34
On a High Note: With Guests Maurice Schweitzer & Matthew Polly
Do you recall the best concert you ever went to? Best trip? Best meal? Chances are good that a few memories come to mind—maybe not every detail of the event, but perhaps a couple great moments. It can go the opposite way, too. Worst travel experience. Worst date. Our memory works in snapshots of particular parts of our experience.In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at a predictable distortion in the way people remember experiences. And we’re doing it in part to honor a very special memory: the memory of the great Daniel Kahneman. He was a Nobel laureate, international best-selling author, repeated Choiceology guest, and a co-founder of the field that is at the heart of this show: behavioral economics. Our opinion of an experience is shaped by which parts we remember most. The same can hold true for how we remember people. Matthew Polly is the best-selling author of Bruce Lee: A Life, a biography of the late great Bruce Lee. He retells the story of how this legendary martial artist, actor, and cultural icon is understood in our collective memory. And then he reveals certain nuances in his biography that may change the way you perceive his legacy.Next, Katy speaks with Maurice Schweitzer, the Cecilia Yen Koo Professor of Operations, Information, and Decisions at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Maurice explains how this memory distortion can be leveraged to better retain staff, improve your experience at work, have better conversations with colleagues, and even plan a more enjoyable vacation. He's also the author of Friend and Foe: When to Cooperate, When to Compete, and How to Succeed at Both. Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed and Charles Schwab & Co. expressly disclaims any liability, including incidental or consequential damages, arising from errors or omissions in this publication. All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.Investing involves risk including loss of principal.All names and market data shown above are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Supporting documentation for any claims or statistical information is available upon request.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0924-U226)
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38:03
The Truth Is Out There: With Guests Tania Lombrozo & Toby Ball
Your car breaks down. Must be because you skipped an oil change last month. Or your favorite team loses. Well, that was because of a bad call by a corrupt referee. In reality, many events involve multiple contributing factors. But we tend to gravitate toward single causes. In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at our desire to explain things simply, even when the truth may be more complex.Where unidentified flying objects are concerned, there is rarely a simple answer. They'd be identified flying objects otherwise. So in the absence of conclusive evidence, UFOs capture the imagination.Case in point: the Rendlesham Forest Incident. We’ll hear from UFO expert (and skeptic) Toby Ball about a fascinating series of sightings in the Rendlesham Forest in the early 1980s. Toby deconstructs the events—and the rush to conclusions by certain media outlets—in search of an explanation.Toby explores the folklore and culture surrounding UFO encounters on his show Strange Arrivals. He also appears on the weekly podcast Crime Writers On.Next, Katy speaks with Tania Lombrozo about her research on our mind’s preference for simple explanations—and when that can lead us astray. Tania is the Arthur W. Marks Professor of Psychology at Princeton University and lab director at Princeton’s Concepts and Cognition Lab.Choiceology is an original podcast from Charles Schwab. For more on the show, visit schwab.com/Choiceology.If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed and Charles Schwab & Co. expressly disclaims any liability, including incidental or consequential damages, arising from errors or omissions in this publication. All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.All names and market data shown above are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Supporting documentation for any claims or statistical information is available upon request.Investing involves risk including loss of principal.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.Apple, the Apple logo, iPad, iPhone, and Apple Podcasts are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries. App Store is a service mark of Apple Inc.Spotify and the Spotify logo are registered trademarks of Spotify AB.0924-PU2Z
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31:42
To Know What You Know: With Guests David Dunning & Andrew Flack
In this episode of Choiceology with Katy Milkman, we look at the often-misunderstood and surprisingly common Dunning-Kruger effect with an interview featuring one of the researchers who first identified it, David Dunning.But we start with the story of Cecilia Jimenez, the humble Spanish grandmother and amateur landscape painter who took it upon herself to restore a fresco in her local church. The results made international headlines—and briefly made Ceclia Jimenez a household name—for all the wrong reasons.Andrew Flack has a lot of compassion for Cecilia. He met with her several times in the process of writing an opera with composer Paul Fowler called Behold the Man about Ceclia’s ill-fated but ultimately beneficial project. Next, David Dunning explains how—contrary to popular belief—we are all at the mercy of the Dunning-Kruger effect from time to time, and that we should be more humble in recognizing what we don’t know about what we don’t know.David Dunning is the Ann and Charles R. Walgreen, Jr., Professor of the Study of Human Understanding at the University of Michigan. The paper "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments," co-authored with Justin Kruger, led to the bias being named The Dunning-Kruger effect. Important DisclosuresThe comments, views, and opinions expressed in the presentation are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Charles Schwab.Data contained herein from third party providers is obtained from what are considered reliable source. However, its accuracy, completeness or reliability cannot be guaranteed and Charles Schwab & Co. expressly disclaims any liability, including incidental or consequential damages, arising from errors or omissions in this publication. All expressions of opinion are subject to change without notice in reaction to shifting market conditions.All names and market data shown above are for illustrative purposes only and are not a recommendation, offer to sell, or a solicitation of an offer to buy any security. Supporting documentation for any claims or statistical information is available upon request.Investing involves risk including loss of principal.The book How to Change: The Science of Getting From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be is not affiliated with, sponsored by, or endorsed by Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.). Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. (CS&Co.) has not reviewed the book and makes no representations about its content.(0824-M9R6)
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About Choiceology with Katy Milkman

Can we learn to make smarter choices? Listen in as host Katy Milkman--behavioral scientist, Wharton professor, and author of How to Change--shares stories of high-stakes decisions and what research reveals they can teach us. Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, explores the lessons of behavioral economics to help you improve your judgment and change for good. Season 1 of Choiceology was hosted by Dan Heath, bestselling author of Made to Stick and Switch. Podcasts are for informational purposes only. This channel is not monitored by Charles Schwab. Please visit schwab.com/contactus for contact options. (0321-1S88)

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