In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

A thoughtful exploration of neurodivergence, creativity, and the transformative power of seeing clients not as problems to solve, but as people whose worlds are worth entering.
In this engaging and deeply insightful conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with drama therapist and neurodivergence specialist Liz McDonough to explore what becomes possible when therapists let go of assumptions and learn to follow the client’s lead. Drawing on nearly two decades of experience working with autistic and neurodivergent children, teens, and young adults, Liz shares how play, creativity, special interests, improvisation, and even puppets can become powerful pathways to connection, emotional expression, and healing.
Together, Janina and Liz challenge traditional ideas about communication, emotional processing, and therapy itself. They discuss why many neurodivergent clients struggle in conventional talk therapy, how therapists can move beyond agendas and expectations, and why curiosity is often more important than expertise. Through stories of puppet characters, improv groups, video games, and beloved fictional worlds, Liz demonstrates how meaningful therapeutic work happens when clinicians enter the client’s world rather than asking the client to enter theirs.
This conversation is a reminder that healing does not always begin with words. Sometimes it begins with a shared interest, a playful moment, or the willingness to see communication in forms we might otherwise overlook.

Key Takeaways:
Meet clients where they are
Special interests are therapeutic resources
Communication is bigger than words
Play creates safety
What looks like resistance may be communication
Growth happens through co-creation, not correction
Curiosity is more valuable than certainty

www.lizmft.com
Liz McDonough, LMFT, is a therapist, drama therapist, educator, consultant, and speaker specializing in supporting neurodivergent individuals and the professionals who work with them. Drawing on a unique background that bridges a theatrical career in New York with more than two decades as a licensed marriage and family therapist, Liz is known for her creative, strengths-based approach to helping neurodivergent people thrive in school, the workplace, and their communities.
A late-diagnosed ADHDer herself, Liz combines lived experience with clinical expertise, bringing warmth, humor, and practical insight to her teaching and consulting. She has presented nationally at conferences including the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium and the AAMFT Systemic Therapy Conference, and works with educators, therapists, and organizations to create more accessible, inclusive, and joyful environments.
Liz holds a B.A. in Drama from NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and a Master's degree in Counseling Psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies. She has taught at the graduate level, supervised associate therapists toward licensure, and provides neurodiversity consultation internationally.
Liz lives in Durham, North Carolina, where she's often singing, hiking, or dreaming up her next creative idea—sometimes all at once.

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with pioneering neuroscientist Sue Carter, whose groundbreaking work has transformed how we understand attachment, bonding, and the biology of human connection. Best known for her decades of research on oxytocin, Sue reflects on the scientific journey that led her from early studies of attachment and imprinting to uncovering the profound role hormones play in shaping relationships, caregiving, stress regulation, and resilience.
Together, Janina and Sue explore how our earliest relational experiences are not only psychological but deeply biological. Sue shares the surprising story of how her own experience of childbirth sparked questions that changed the trajectory of her career, leading to discoveries about oxytocin’s influence on stress, social bonding, and even trauma. Their conversation bridges neuroscience and clinical practice, illuminating how the body’s caregiving systems shape our capacity for connection throughout life.
Attachment is both emotional and biological

Oxytocin is far more than the “love hormone”

The body changes profoundly through caregiving

Trauma affects relational biology

Bonding is not limited to biology alone

Healing requires understanding the body, not just the mind

C. Sue Carter, PhD, is the Rudy Professor Emerita of Biology and Director Emerita of the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University. A pioneering researcher in the biology of attachment and social connection, her work has transformed our understanding of the hormones and neurobiological systems that shape bonding, caregiving, stress regulation, and human relationships. Through her groundbreaking studies of the socially monogamous prairie vole, Dr. Carter was the first to identify the physiological foundations of pair bonding and monogamy, helping to establish the scientific basis for contemporary research on oxytocin, vasopressin, and the biology of love and attachment. Her work continues to influence the fields of neuroscience, psychology, psychiatry, and trauma treatment.
https://kinseyinstitute.org/about/staff/carter-c-sue.html

In this powerful conversation, Janina Fisher is joined by therapists, educators, and longtime collaborators Debra Chatman-Finley and Gliceria Pérez to explore the intersection of trauma, race, identity, and clinical practice.
Reflecting on a collaboration that began during the upheaval of 2020, the three discuss how experiences of racism, discrimination, and systemic inequity create ongoing conditions of threat that can profoundly shape the nervous system. Drawing parallels between chronic childhood trauma and the hypervigilance many Black and Brown individuals navigate every day, they examine how trauma is often rooted not only in discrete events but in environments where safety can never be assumed.
Together, they explore implicit bias in psychotherapy, the importance of therapists doing their own self-reflective work, and the ways race and culture are always present in the therapy room—even when they go unspoken. With honesty, warmth, and mutual respect, this conversation offers an invitation to move beyond good intentions toward deeper awareness, curiosity, and genuine connection.
Whether you're a clinician, student, or someone seeking to better understand the impact of race on lived experience, this episode offers valuable insights into what it means to create safety, build trust, and engage in meaningful conversations across difference.
Key Takeaways
Trauma can be an ongoing condition, not just a single event
Living under chronic threat changes the nervous system
Implicit bias affects every therapist
"Doing the work" starts with self-reflection
Race is always in the room
Safety cannot be assumed
Curiosity matters more than perfection
Honest conversations create connection
About the Guests
Debra Chatman-Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ, and a former Adjunct Professor at New York University, where she taught Racial and Social Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. She previously served as Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency and is a graduate and former Associate Faculty of The Multicultural Family Institute. Trained in EMDR, Brainspotting, and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), with a Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute, Debra has devoted her practice to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma—particularly on African American women and their parenting. She co-facilitates a monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging and Dignity Gathering for The Academy of Therapy Wisdom, provides clinical consultation for BIPOC clinicians, and has led numerous workshops on racism, dissociation, implicit bias, and racial trauma in clinical practice.
Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual/bicultural therapist in private practice in New Jersey, working passionately with BIPOC and other marginalized communities from a social justice perspective. She is trained in EMDR, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy (Levels One and Two), and Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST), completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at the Justice Resource Institute, and is currently pursuing Brainspotting certification. A former Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program and Adjunct Faculty at NYU's Silver School of Social Work, Gliceria currently runs two support groups for Women of Color, co-facilitates the monthly BIPOC Safety, Belonging, and Dignity Gathering for the Academy of Therapy Wisdom, and co-leads the Awesome Clinicians of Color Book Club.
Together, Debra and Gliceria are developing a podcast and writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color.
Janina's Links
Website: https://janinafisher.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjaninafisher/?hl=en-gb
New book: https://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Our-Fragmented-Selves-Therapists/dp/1683738918

In this candid and thought-provoking episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with somatic therapist, educator, and founder of The Embody Lab, Dr. Scott Lyons, for a wide-ranging conversation about trauma, embodiment, and what it means to be fully alive.
Together, they reflect on the personal experiences that shaped their paths into trauma work, exploring how helping others can sometimes begin as a survival strategy of its own. Along the way, they unpack the nuanced differences between trauma and difficult life experiences, discuss the impact of growing up with dysregulated caregivers, and examine how our nervous systems learn to adapt in order to survive.
Janina and Scott also trace the evolution of somatic trauma therapy—from the early days when body-based approaches were often dismissed to the growing recognition that healing must involve more than insight alone. They explore why no single method can address the complexity of trauma, the importance of meeting each person as an individual rather than applying a formula, and how collaboration across disciplines is shaping the future of trauma treatment.
Blending humor, personal stories, and decades of clinical wisdom, this episode is a powerful reminder that healing is not about becoming someone new—it is about reconnecting with the parts of ourselves that had to be hidden in order to survive.

Dr. Scott Lyons is an international keynote speaker, serial entrepreneur, licensed Clinical
Psychologist, and Doctor of Osteopathy (Spain). He is the Founder and CEO of The Embody
Lab, the world’s largest online learning platform for body-based trauma therapies, reaching
more than two million practitioners across 30+ countries.
A recognized innovator in transformative wellness, Dr. Lyons is the creator of Somatic Stress
ReleaseTM, founder of Primal Reset Supplements, and architect of more than 40 advanced
professional trainings spanning trauma therapy, embodied leadership, integrative health, and
human performance. His work integrates neuroscience, somatics, and executive development
— earning him recognition from Oprah Daily as “The Beyoncé of Trauma Therapy.”
Beyond his clinical and educational leadership, Dr. Lyons serves as an executive coach and
wellness consultant to founders, CEOs, and high-level leaders, bringing a rare blend of
psychological depth, physiological precision, and strategic vision.
He is the bestselling author of Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in
Yourself and Others and host of The Gently Used Human and Hot Seat Therapy, his YouTube
series exploring transformation in real time.
https://www.drscottlyons.com/
https://theembodylab.com/
Book: 
Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others

Key Takeaways
1. Trauma and adversity are not always the same thing
2. Many helping professionals are drawn to healing through their own survival adaptations
3. Somatics is about more than trauma
4. There is no single "right" trauma therapy
5. Trauma often involves adapting away from our authentic selves
6. The future of trauma treatment is collaboration
7. Accessibility matters
8. Healing begins when we are met as we truly are

In this fascinating episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina Fisher sits down with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Fredric Schiffer to explore a provocative question: can trauma be understood as a dialogue between two distinct “minds” within the same brain?
Drawing from decades of clinical work and neuroscience research, Schiffer shares how his pioneering “dual-brain psychology” emerged from split-brain studies and his observations that trauma survivors often seem to shift between profoundly different states of self. Together, he and Janina examine how one hemisphere may carry the emotional imprint of trauma while the other holds a more grounded, resilient perspective—offering a compelling framework for understanding internal conflict, fear, and healing.
Their conversation bridges neuroscience and psychotherapy, touching on the lasting effects of traumatic memory, why insight alone often cannot override fear, and how healing may happen when the healthier parts of the self can connect compassionately with the wounded parts. This episode offers a rich exploration of the brain’s adaptability and the deeply relational process of trauma recovery.
Trauma can create sharply different self-states

The two hemispheres of the brain may process emotional experience differently

Healing is not just cognitive—it is experiential

A healthier part of the self can support the traumatized part 

Neuroscience can validate lived experience.

Dr. Schiffer is an assistant professor of psychiatry, part-time, at Harvard Medical School and research associate at McLean Hospital. He has developed a theory of psychology that is the subject of his recent book Goodbye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, & PTSD: The Life-Changing Science of Dual Brain Psychology. The theory has been studied extensively at Harvard and its clinical applications have been articulated in multiple peer-reviewed publications. Dr. Schiffer is also the Founder and CEO of MindLight, LLC which has received 2 SBIR grants from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse that were give an FDA Breakthrough Designation for the treatment of opioid addiction. He has a private practice of psychiatry in Newton, Massachusetts, USA
https://dualbrainpsychology.com/
Books:
Of Two Minds
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Minds-Revolutionary-Dual-Brain-Psychology-ebook/dp/B001PO6CMK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=211HASIEUKUKI&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xV8hnS3a19gKRei-jFVGJsij5GooeoQMnr847BIMRGCj6DDirhPGo1B_Rp4M6JEPkUxU_edZMfoRYxjd8rXXVI1HRnvgRfTFc5EylUFxyC-vf5KnteegxS6T4Xn1-seSKtksvSw7Q85UZ8xCzRGN2g.lTn1SDp4auJQ9Zp_6aXZHyoG8ih8BTx40F6Yc__LWjk&dib_tag=se&keywords=frederic+Schiffer&qid=1778621398&sprefix=frederic+schiffer%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1
Good-Bye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, and PTSD
https://dualbrainpsychology.com/good-bye-anxiety-depression-addiction-ptsd-the-life-changing-science-of-dual-brain-psychology
Dr. Schiffer’s Papers:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aJk1vEbT1cMpcGF1sBgftrIoNwwDNvLT