The Edge Podcast

Vivek Raman is Etherealize CoFounder and CEO while Michael McGuiness is an Etherealize Researcher and author of their recent report "Ethereum and The Era of Productive Money."
Many have viewed ETH as a technology bet. Etherealize just published a report arguing it's something far more important, better money than BTC and gold, and the first monetary asset in history that actually compounds.
In this episode, they break down their $250,000 ETH thesis and why institutions that understand pristine collateral are quietly becoming the biggest ETH bulls.
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S SPONSORS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🟠 APYX | Enhanced digital credit yield, onchain

🏦 ALTURA | Bringing the yield institutions kept, to your wallet

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
3:06 - Vivek and Michael’s background on Wall Street
5:18 - Core thesis: ETH is better money than BTC or gold
10:03 - What is productive money?
12:15 - Is Wall Street buying the story of ETH as productive money?
16:02 - The institutional crypto bull market
18:08 - Three demand drivers for ETH: gas, collateral, and staking
20:53 - Why ETH wasn’t reaching its full potential until recently
25:20 - What needed to happen in order for ETH to reprice?
30:47 - Distribution channels: ETFs, Schwab, Tom Lee
32:41 - Bitcoin's security budget problem
33:33 - Ethereum’s censorship resistance, decentralization, and predictability
39:54 - The path to $250,000 ETH price
44:37 - Bitcoin's coordination problem vs Ethereum's shipping velocity
46:02 - The Ethereum roadmap and AI accelerating scaling expectations
51:43 - Principal risks to the $250k ETH thesis
55:37 - What institutions still don’t understand about Ethereum
58:19 - What’s Etherealize been working on?
58:55 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Etherealize website: https://www.etherealize.com/
► Productive Money report: https://www.productivemoney.org/
► Etherealize on X: https://x.com/etherealize_io
► Vivek Raman on X: https://x.com/VivekVentures
► Michael McGuiness on X: https://x.com/mikemcg0
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad and Nomatic are long term holders of ETH.

Sam MacPherson is the CoFounder and CEO of Phoenix Labs, the core team behind Spark.
Some DeFi protocols are burning through reserves, while others wait for the bull market to save them. Spark is doing neither.
In a new episode of our Revenue Meta series, Sam breaks down the business behind Spark and how it's generating $27.8M in projected annual revenue (up from $23M since recording) across four business channels. We discuss what's being done with the $9.6M protocol surplus to better return value to SPK holders through programmatic buybacks and growth initiatives. We also cover the Spark Liquidity Layer managing over $2.3 billion in DeFi, CeFi, and TradFi. Sam has the latest on their upcoming CeDeFi prime brokerage called Spark Prime and what else is in store to get Spark back to earning a projected $80M in annual revenue.
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S SPONSORS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🟠 APYX | Enhanced digital credit yield, onchain

🏦 ALTURA | Bringing the yield institutions kept, to your wallet

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
2:10 - Spark x Sky relationship
4:03 - Spark products: Spark Savings, Spark Liquidity Layer, SparkLend
9:22 - Team and operations behind Spark
10:57 - How does Spark make money?
13:42 - Spark’s revenue: $23M net returns, $13.6M opex, $9.6M surplus
20:06 - How Spark DAO uses protocol surplus to return value to SPK holders
22:14 - Spark DAO treasury and SPK buybacks
26:56 - Who are Spark’s customers?
32:57 - Which Spark product is driving more revenue?
35:23 - Does Sky growth create tailwinds for Spark?
38:44 - Is Aave’s reputation hit an opportunity for Spark and Sky?
41:37 - Growth drivers for Spark next
44:03 - Spark Prime, a CeDeFi prime brokerage
46:22 - Sam’s growth goals for 2026
47:53 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Spark website: https://spark.fi/
► Spark Data Hub: https://data.spark.fi/
► Spark Financials: https://data.spark.fi/financials
► Spark on X: https://x.com/sparkdotfi
► Sam MacPherson on X: https://x.com/hexonaut
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

Ellis Osborn and Kevin Li are CoFounders of Saturn.
This is the first episode in a new series by The Edge Podcast covering emerging DeFi builders. Ellis and Kevin break down how Saturn tokenizes STRC via two onchain assets, USDat and sUSDat. Michael Saylor and his team at Strategy built STRC to pay an 11.5% yield backed by Bitcoin. Saturn is building the DeFi layer on top of this STRC yield.
We learn how Saturn's tokenized yield unlocks global access to STRC, higher leverage through the likes of Morpho, yield trading on Pendle, and risk tranching soon through Strata. They share more on why Saylor himself is so excited for what Saturn is working on to distribute STRC yield on Ethereum. We cover why digital credit might be superior to private credit, and how STRC could become "the risk-free rate of onchain finance."
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S SPONSORS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🏦 ALTURA | Bringing the yield institutions kept, to your wallet

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
2:21 - Saturn CoFounders background
4:47 - Why build Saturn?
6:57 - Why Michael Saylor’s excited for STRC in DeFi
10:14 - Three major DeFi use cases for Saturn: looping, Pendle, and tranching
14:59 - How does Saturn distribute STRC yield onchain?
15:58 - Where does STRC yield come from?
17:06 - Why 2-token design with USDat vs sUSDat
18:48 - Is USDat a stablecoin?
20:56 - How STRC vs USDat peg works
24:29 - The opportunity for STRC to grow alongside $1M BTC
28:37 - Demand for STRC digital credit will eat into fixed income
31:50 - DeFi is starving for a yield like STRC
35:43 - Can STRC become the risk-free rate onchain?
37:20 - Saturn means 24/7 trading of STRC onchain
39:16 - The impact of perps for STRC
41:46 - How far could STRC reasonably drop below $100?
43:50 - What’s live now on Saturn?
45:23 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Saturn website: https://saturn.credit/
► Saturn on X: https://x.com/saturn_credit
► Ellis Osborn on X: https://x.com/ellisp_osborn
► Kevin Li on X: https://x.com/kevinlhr88
► Nomatic's write-up on STRC: https://www.the-edge.xyz/p/strc-the-birth-of-bitcoin-credit
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad and Nomatic both have BTC exposure and were angels in Saturn's pre-seed. DeFi Dad and Nomatic do not hold STRC or MSTR.
sUSDat is only available to eligible participants outside the United States only.
sUSDat holders are currently earning 11.5%+ APY. This is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any security in any jurisdiction where prohibited, including to U.S. persons.
Nothing in this podcast constitutes investment advice. Yield is not guaranteed and may vary.
"Backed by Bitcoin" refers to collateral structure only and does not imply capital protection or risk elimination.
Saturn's Terms and Conditions https://saturn.credit/legal/terms-conditions

Chaitanya Jain (CJ) works on the Bitcoin team at Strategy.
Most people know Strategy for its outspoken BTC bull Founder Michael Saylor and second, for buying billions in BTC, but more of you ought to learn about the financial instruments they've engineered, backed by BTC as digital capital that appreciates over time.
In this episode, CJ breaks down how Strategy’s flagship STRC works, a perpetual preferred stock with a stable $100 price and 11.5% annual yield paid monthly in tax-deferred cash dividends. We dive into the ambitious plans at Strategy to target a $300 trillion fixed income market with STRC and how that could impact the price of BTC long term. We also dive into how DeFi teams are already tokenizing STRC to bring it onchain.
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🏦 ALTURA | Bringing the yield institutions kept, to your wallet

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
2:46 - CJ’s background and role at Strategy
7:23 - What Strategy actually does with Bitcoin
10:40 - Why Strategy chose to offer perpetual preferred equity
14:58 - Which Strategy instrument is most senior?
16:44 - How AI helped design Strategy instruments
19:18 - What is STRC? Stable price, 11.5% yield, monthly dividends
23:23 - Where does STRC yield actually come from?
26:14 - ATM program for raising capital to buy more BTC
29:21 - How does STRC enable Strategy to accumulate BTC in the bear
36:49 - STRC could serve $300T fixed income market + the impact on BTC
41:48 - Difference between MSTR vs STRC investors
44:36 - Who is buying STRC right now?
47:04 - Teams tokenizing STRC for DeFi
51:41 - What are the real risks for STRC?
55:00 - Would Strategy ever sell BTC?
57:50 - Why STRC is Strategy’s “iPhone moment”
1:01:55 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Strategy website: https://strategy.com/
► Strategy on X: https://x.com/strategy
► CJ on X: https://x.com/cj_bitcoin
► Nomatic's write-up on STRC: https://www.the-edge.xyz/p/strc-the-birth-of-bitcoin-credit
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad and Nomatic both have BTC exposure.

Matthew Fisher is CEO of Katana.
Many L2s have launched, hoping the apps show up. Katana is taking a different approach, building apps itself and designing the economic engine from day one to make this all possible.
In this episode, Matthew breaks down how vaultbridge assets like vbETH and vbUSDT redirect real yield from Ethereum Mainnet to active DeFi participants on Katana, why they acquired the team behind IDEX to launch Katana Perps, and their roadmap to onboard major liquidity from CEXs like OKX and fintechs like Revolut who can route liquidity through Katana for yield.
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🏦 ALTURA | Bringing the yield institutions kept, to your wallet

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

👻 MANTLE | Aave V3 is live on Mantle

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
2:04- Matthew’s background in DeFi
6:24 - Katana’s origin story
10:25 - vbTokens and why yield goes to DeFi participants, not holders
12:00 - How the vaultbridge actually works with Morpho on Ethereum
17:38 - Vitalik’s L2 comments and Ethereum alignment
21:50 - How Katana can win over users as a DeFi hub
25:12 - IDEX acquisition and Katana Perps launch
28:06 - 5 revenue-generating businesses for one network
30:55 - Built for both retail and institutions
32:51 - ve(3,3) flywheel at the network level on Katana
44:35 - KAT vs vKAT vs avKAT
48:08 - OKX Earn and Binance programs powered by Katana
52:29 - Katana’s endgame to tap into fintech liquidity
54:32 - Why Katana is strategically aligned with Polygon
59:20 - What Matthew's most excited for in 6-12 months
1:01:26 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Katana website: https://katana.network/
► Katana on X: https://x.com/katana
► Katana Perps website: https://perps.katana.network/
► Katana Perps on X: https://x.com/katanaperps
► Matthew on X: https://x.com/mfisher10x
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad earned ~$500 of KAT in the airdrop and voluntarily staked it as avKAT in a demo edited into the pod. Katana has been a sponsor of The Edge Podcast but we do not accept paid guest slots. We believe Katana has an interesting story given its use of vbAssets and ve(3,3) mechanics at the network level.