The Edge Podcast

Gabriel Shapiro is a top legal expert in cryptoassets and tokenization, who is now Founder of MetaLeX, where he's building onchain legal entities and tokenized securities infrastructure.
We dig into Vitalik's recent tweet about refocusing on Ethereum L1 scaling, why Ethereum's commitment to maximum decentralization matters, and the evolution of L2s. Then Gabriel dives into why you don't actually own your stock and how that figures into the emerging RWA sector. We explore why this system exists, why most RWA tokenization recreates the same broken intermediaries, and how MetaLeX is building true ownership onchain.
In this episode, we cover:
+ Why Ethereum is refocusing on L1 scaling and what it means for L2s
+ The Cede & Co revelation: how stock ownership actually works
+ Three tokenization philosophies (and why most recreate the problem)
+ BORGs: Cybernetic organizations that merge legal entities with smart contracts
+ Unbreachable legal agreements using private keys as legal authority
+ How MetaLeX replaces Carta + AngelList + DocuSign atomically
+ AI agents spinning up their own companies with legal personhood
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
1:54 - Vitalik’s viral tweet to refocus on scaling Ethereum L1
5:26 - Why did Ethereum move to L2s in the first place?
8:54 - The decentralization vs. scale trade-off: Why L2s took a different path
13:01 - If the trilemma is solved, have L2s lost leverage?
14:37 - What this changing dynamic could mean for L2s
18:16 - What is Stage 2 and why some L2s avoid it
20:10 - The problems with RWA tokenization today
22:21 - Why you don't actually own your stock
26:13 - Why the system exists and the three ways to tokenize securities
28:40 - Where Canton sits in the tokenization landscape
32:19 - Custodial tokenization risk: How DTCC could influence hard forks
34:54 - What is MetaLeX? And how we get to real ownership of RWAs onchain
42:08 - What is a BORG? Cybernetic organizations explained
43:42 - MetaLeX V2: Unbreachable legal agreements
48:11 - Replacing Carta + AngelList + DocuSign + law firms atomically
53:54 - Can agents spin up their own companies?
58:34 - What drives Gabriel: Cyberpunk dreams
1:03:18 - Next 12 months, progress towards Ethereum's true corporate finance layer
1:06:23 - Robinhood's tokenized stocks approach
1:11:21 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► MetaLeX website: https://metalex.tech/
► Gabriel's 2018 post on Tokenizing Corporate Capital Stock: https://metalex.substack.com/p/tokenizing-corporate-capital-stock
► MetaLeX on X: https://x.com/MetaLeX_Labs
► Gabriel Shapiro on X: https://x.com/lex_node
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
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DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. Gabriel, DeFi Dad, and Nomatic all hold ETH.

Mike Silagadze is the CoFounder and CEO of ether.fi.
Ether.fi is building crypto's own Revolut, a fully integrated banking experience that's self-custodial, with lower fees and higher rewards than traditional fintech. In Q4 2025, ether.fi Cash hit $126M in card spending, up 160% quarter over quarter, making it the largest non-custodial crypto card.
Mike breaks down the business model (Stake, Liquid, Cash), how they survived October 10th with zero liquidations, and why 2026 is the year they go mainstream.
In this episode, we cover:
+ How Cash revenue is diversifying the business beyond ETH exposure
+ Why they're not another DeFi casino
+ $50M revenue in 2025, forecasting $100M+ in 2026
+ Token holder rights and why value accrual must be enshrined
+ Tokenized stocks and gold coming in March 2026
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
1:25 - ether.fi's business model: Stake, Liquid, Cash
2:30 - TVL vs revenue, what ether.fi optimizes for
6:22 - How Cash is tripling revenue share and diversifying the business
8:51 - How ETH price affects ether.fi's revenue
10:25 - Digital asset treasury partnerships
11:47 - How ether.fi survived Oct 10th with zero liquidations
17:22 - ether.fi Cash hit $126M in spending Q4 (160% QoQ growth)
19:35 - Why ether.fi is the largest non-custodial crypto card
22:54 - Customer acquisition costs
25:33 - Is the card business profitable on its own?
26:29 - The $100B corporate card opportunity
30:39 - Team of 38 employees, staying lean
32:07 - 2025 revenue: $50M (up from $25M in 2024)
34:31 - Token holder rights: Why value accrual must be enshrined
41:03 - The buyback debate, why ether.fi does them anyway
44:28 - What if BlackRock ever acquired ether.fi?
48:47 - Going mainstream beyond DeFi (millions of users)
50:18 - Vaults as essential infrastructure for a DeFi bank
52:58 - Mr. Beast's neofinance app, competition or rising tide?
54:17 - Tokenized stocks and gold coming in March 2026
57:10 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► ether.fi website: https://ether.fi/
► Token Terminal ether.fi Q4 2025 Report: https://x.com/tokenterminal/status/2019121507331604772?s=20
► ether.fi on X: https://x.com/ether_fi
► Mike on X: https://x.com/mikesilagadze
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad invested in the seed round for ether.fi.

Leo Lanza is a well known Ethereum investor and content creator.
Markets are panicking. ETH is down 50% from its all-time high. Sentiment across all crypto markets is at multi-year lows. But Leo remains steadfast.
He breaks down why Ethereum can't be replicated, why the four-year cycle is breaking, and how the CLARITY Act could be crypto's biggest catalyst ever. He explains why ETH is valued like gold or oil, not a tech stock, and walks through the math behind his $80,000 price target.
In this episode, we cover:
+ Why Ethereum is like Netflix replacing Blockbuster
+ His $80,000 ETH thesis
+ Why the CLARITY Act changes everything for institutional adoption
+ L2s as Ethereum's weapon for distribution and growth
+ What could break Leo's bull case
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
3:04 - Leo’s background
4:18 - Why focus on Ethereum?
5:45 - Why Leo came out swinging when Ethereum was being attacked
9:46 - ETH is not a tech stock: It's like gold or oil
18:02 - The $80,000 ETH price target and how we get there
20:39 - The four-year cycle is breaking: Liquidity vs. halving
28:32 - Are we in a bear market or just a pullback?
34:52 - The CLARITY Act: Crypto's biggest catalyst ever
41:23 - Tokenization: The $100 trillion opportunity
44:15 - Private blockchains are smoke and mirrors
46:56 - DTCC is a dinosaur trying to survive
52:22 - Vitalik's L2 tweet: What he actually meant
1:00:06 - Rapid fire: ETH flips BTC, TVL matters most, scaling misconceptions
1:03:05 - When clarity passes, what will the market get wrong?
1:04:06 - What signal would tell us the BTC 4-year cycle is broken?
1:05:46 - When will ETH reach new highs?
1:06:26 - ETH hits $80K when TVL reaches $3 trillion
1:07:13 - What could break Leo’s bull case?
1:09:44 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Leo's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@l3olanza
► Leo Lanza on X: https://x.com/leolanza
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and Leo all hold ETH.

Vlad Novakovski is the Founder and CEO of Lighter, a high-performance ZK-based perps and spot exchange, built on Ethereum.
A year ago, Lighter hadn't even launched. Today it's processing billions in daily volume, handling 500 million orders at a total cost of around $50K. Vlad's background spans STEM Olympiads, Harvard at 18, Citadel trading, and being an early advisor to Robinhood. Now he's building the infrastructure layer for when TradFi and DeFi merge.
Vlad breaks down how Lighter achieves centralized exchange performance on Ethereum, what Robinhood's $68M investment means for tokenized equities, and the post-TGE reality for LIT: token down, volumes pulled back, but fundamentals unchanged.
In this episode, we cover:
+ Scaling Ethereum's top perps DEX
+ Robinhood's $68M bet and tokenized equities
+ LIT token utility and value capture
+ Roadmap: options, prediction markets, fixed income
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🏙 MAINSTREET | Bringing proven TradFi yield strategies to DeFi markets

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

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⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
2:19 - Vlad’s background
6:47 - What is Lighter? Five goals, one platform
10:36 - How ZK proofs enable high-performance trading on Ethereum
14:41 - Processing 500 million orders a day
16:33 - Why Lighter was at Bitmine's annual shareholder meeting
18:32 - Robinhood's $68M investment and the tokenized equities opportunity
22:16 - The competitive landscape: Lighter vs. Hyperliquid and CEXs
26:33 - How the LLP works and how it differs from other DEX LPs
29:51 - The LIT token launch: What went well
31:45 - Post-TGE reality and the marathon ahead
33:48 - LIT token utility: Staking, fees, and LLP access
37:31 - Revenue and buybacks, what drives LIT value
39:43 - The new Lighter mobile app
41:03 - DeFi is not antithetical to regulators
43:00 - What’s next? Tokenized stocks, options, prediction markets
45:12 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► Lighter website: https://lighter.xyz/
► Lighter on X: https://x.com/lighter_xyz
► Vlad Novakovski on X: https://x.com/vnovakovski
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.

David Choi and Conor Moore are CoFounders of Permian Labs, the builders behind USDai.
AI infrastructure is projecting trillions of dollars in CapEx spend, but there's a problem: traditional finance can't keep up. Banks move too slow. Private credit funds can't scale. The most important commodity in the world has no liquid debt market.
USDai is filling this gap by financing AI infrastructure with GPU-backed loans, offering stablecoin depositors 10-15% APR. David and Conor break down how they're using DeFi rails and tokenization to create liquid debt markets for GPUs, enabling institutional borrowers to access capital and retail users to earn yield on productive AI infrastructure.
In this episode, we cover:
+ Why trillions in AI CapEx can't get traditional financing
+ How USDAI structures loans against GPUs, not businesses
+ Why this could become "the interest rate of artificial intelligence"
+ Their two-token model: USDai vs. sUSDai
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💎 THIS EPISODE'S PARTNERS
🔒 KPK | Best risk-adjusted yield through automated vaults

🌅 NEUTRL | The next generation of crypto-native yield

🛡️ ACCOUNTABLE | Real-time financial verification

🕛 NOON | The highest and safest stablecoin yield, built for the long term

⚔️ KATANA | Deep liquidity & real yield

🏦 MANTLE | MNT is now live on Solana

🐡 PUFFER INSTITUTIONAL | ETH staking solutions for scale

⚙️ GEARBOX PROTOCOL | Onchain lending reimagined

------
⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
1:45 - Founders background from NFT lending to AI infra
5:52 - “The more you know the price, the less money you make”
8:51 - The AI infrastructure financing gap, trillions in CapEx, no capital
15:22 - What is structured credit and why does it matter?
19:33 - How USDai GPU-backed loans work
24:54 - Addressing the Pine Analytics critique: Lagging utilization
34:13 - Why AI infra borrowers can use crypto rails
36:00 - Real-time GPU monitoring with Chainlink oracles
36:51 - “Mercenary capital” vs common sense capital
39:14 - Why launch the token before full PMF?
42:34 - Are USDai borrowers riskier to lend to?
45:26 - Warehouse receipts and UCC 12: How USDai tokenizes GPUs
50:58 - Managing GPU depreciation risk
53:28 - What keeps the founders up at night
54:05 - USDai vs. sUSDai, the two-token model explained
58:25 - The CHIP governance token
59:10 - What’s next: The road to $1B in loans
1:00:21 - Closing
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🔗 GUEST LINKS
► USDai website: https://usd.ai/
► USDai on X: https://x.com/USDai_Official
► David Choi on X: https://x.com/0xZergs
► Conor Moore on X: https://x.com/_ConorMoore
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🎙️ MORE FROM THE EDGE PODCAST AND EDGE NEWSLETTER
► Newsletter: https://the-edge.xyz
► Apple: https://tinyurl.com/edgepod
► Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/edgepodspotify
► Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edge_pod
► Follow DeFi Dad: https://x.com/DeFi_Dad
► Follow Nomatic: https://x.com/Nomaticcap
► Learn DeFi: http://defidad.com/
------
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said on The Edge Podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell tokens or securities. This content is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing shared here is financial advice. Any views expressed by hosts or guests on the show are solely their opinions. Always do your own research. DeFi Dad, Nomatic, and guests may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast.