161: Adam Ferrier on why listening to your customers can be bad for your brand
This week we have been exclusively watching 'Magic Mike', shaking a Magic 8-Ball and listening to '24k Magic' by Bruno Mars (which is just awful) in order to win the slightly nervous attention of Adam Ferrier, founder of Thinkerbell; the thinkers, tinkers and practitioners of ‘measured magic’.
A psychology brain sat on top of some sturdy strategy bones, Adam is a rare voice of reason in the largely barmy brand world – as well as being the chief sceptic when it comes to the industry obsession with ‘the customer’. He’s also the author of more superb books, including ‘The Advertising effect: How to Change Behaviour’ and supplements all this talk-talking with some serious walk-walking through his work that brings marketing science and creative thinking together.
In this episode Adam shares his expertise on brands who forget how to be brands, why every business problem is a behaviour change problem and the forgotten benefits of simply fitting in.
This episode is very proudly dedicated to Anne Young.
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Timestamps
09:16 - The impact of D&AD annuals on Adam's career choice
11:19 - Transition from forensic psychology to marketing
16:12 - The perils of customer obsession
22:57 - Balancing brand and customer needs
25:11 - The importance of consumer research
Adam’s Book Recommendations are:
Stop Listening to Your Customers by Adam Ferrier:
The Advertising Effect: How to Change Behaviour by Adam Ferrier:
Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:
Existential Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:
Here and Now: Tales from the Heart by Irvin Yalom:
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42:07
160: Shane Stewart on how to build brands with fizz
This week we went around slurping muddy water from puddles in order to win the sympathy of Shane Stewart – brand man, running man and fizzy drink saviour.
Chief brand brain at XOXO soda, Shane has built his career around launching and marketing drinks that do good stuff for your innards, while looking extremely cool on your outtards. Before shaking up the canned drink business with XOXO he helped create a large and loyal community of slurpers for Moju, a ginger and turmeric shot that’s a bit like unleashing a troop of helpfully energetic monkeys inside your tired old brain. And, as well as bringing better branded bubbly beverages to Britain and beyond, he’s even found the time to launch Step by Steppers, a marvellous running club designed to help people dealing with grief to feel less alone.
This episode is very proudly dedicated to his Dad.
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Follow Shane on LinkedIn and Instagram
Step by Steppers Run Club
Timestamps
03:14 - Shane's Early Career in Hospitality
05:08 - Cultural Significance of Pubs in the UK
07:29 - Importance of University Experience Over Degree Choice
08:50 - Shane's Interest in Brands and Marketing
10:57 - Shane's Time in Australia and Farm Work Experience
13:04 - Transition from Hospitality to Marketing
14:40 - Working at Northern Block Ice Cream
16:05 - Joining Moju and Creative Job Application
18:22 - Continuous Learning and Mini MBA
20:19 - Transition to XOXO Soda
23:37 - Challenges and Opportunities in the Functional Soda Market
25:21 - Product Range and Flavor Development at XOXO
29:27 - Psychological Aspects of Product Taste and Health Benefits
31:12 - Listener Questions: Startups vs. Big Brands
34:47 - Listener Questions: Convincing Retailers to Stock Products
39:42 - Introduction to Step by Stepper Run Club
Shane's Book Recommendation is:
The Chimp Paradox - Prof Steve Peters
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55:12
159: Alex Smith on the battle to make business strategy better
This week we positioned our most powerful fan at the rear end of a corpulent bull in hopes of snaring the attention of legendary bullshit fighter, Alex Smith
A strategist who’s set himself the mountainous task of extracting all the nonsense from business strategy, Alex is very much a breath of a fresh air in a field that can, at its worst, smell a lot like somebody’s done a poo… on a dead crab… in the drains of an abandoned laundrette… and then set it on fire. He is the author of a bestselling book on strategy, titled, with Alex’s typical disregard for fluff, No Bullshit Strategy. In those pages – and through Alex’s wildly popular LinkedIn posts – he makes a compelling case for businesses to look more closely at the decisions they make and wheedle out the ‘anti-strategic’ ones that are causing 99% of all pickles. So, in true Alex fashion, we probably could have just said something like ‘he helps businesses get stuff right, more of the time’ instead of all that nonsense about the crab and the laundrette. Ah well.
This episode is dedicated to Alex’s wife who is the engine and foundation underneath everything.
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Follow Alex on LinkedIn.
Timestamps:
(03:26) - First Jobs and Failures
(06:19) - Reflections on Being Fired
(08:53) - Finding the Right Fit
(10:46) - The Challenge of Entering Advertising
(12:24) - Polishing the Pig: Agency Work
(15:36) - The Importance of Unique Value
(19:08) - Theory vs. Practice in Strategy
(20:26) - Defining Business Strategy
(22:03) - Value Generation in Business
(24:16) - The Role of Communication
(28:04) - The Hierarchy of Business Strategy
(30:28) - The Role of Founders in Strategy
(32:10) - Navigating Corporate Structures
(36:15) - The Myth of the Legendary Founder
(40:05) - Mediocrity vs. Strategy
(42:58) - Learning from Established Brands
(45:11) - Applying Strategy to Personal Business
(47:30) - The Shift from Freelancer to Entrepreneur
Alex's Book Recommendations are:
Zero to One by Peter Thiel
Incerto Series by Nassim Taleb
Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson
Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson
The Matter with Things by Ian McGilchrist
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1:04:52
158: Paul Dervan on a marketing future that embraces mistakes and machines
This week we released AI from the punishment cupboard in which we’ve been keeping it in order to win the approval of author, marketing super-brain and AI believer Paul Dervan.
As the Head of Brand Marketing at Miro, Paul has been busy bolstering his reputation as one of the industry’s smartiest pant-wearers when it comes to marketing effectiveness. Miro is just the latest stop in a marketing career you could only possibly describe as both distinguished and glittering (glittinguished?) and has seen Paul tackle the marketing challenges on behalf of everyone from O2 to Telefonica to the National Lottery in Ireland (scooping, along the way, the title of Ireland’s Marketer of the Year in 2022.) He’s also the author of Run With The Foxes, a superb book about marketing, mistakes and making much better decisions.
This episode is very proudly dedicated to Peter Field. Peter has had a huge influence on Paul’s career both as a mentor and advisor.
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Follow Paul on LinkedIn.
Timestamps:
03:45 - First Job and Proper Job
05:10 - Early Career in Marketing
07:34 - Career Path and Focus
09:30 - Paul's Sweet Spot in Marketing
11:00 - Writing the Book: Run with Foxes
13:27 - Learning from Mistakes
15:51 - Mistakes and AI in Marketing
18:08 - Decision-Making Process
20:40 - Classical vs. Modern Marketing
22:22 - AI's Impact on Marketing
25:06 - Practical Applications of AI
30:05 - Advanced Uses of AI
33:08 - Synthetic Research
34:28 - Skepticism vs. Cynicism
36:42 - Curiosity and Experimentation
39:27 - Admitting Mistakes
43:27 - Listener Questions: Embedding Chapter One
Paul's Book Recommendations are:
Ogilvy on Advertising – David Ogilvy
The Anatomy of Humbug – Paul Feldwick
Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy – Phil Barden
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56:09
157: Patrick Freyne is here to save us from a Productive life
This week we shredded our vision board and fed it to some ornamental carp, purely to win the approval of author, critic and quite possibly the world first demotivational speaker, Patrick Freyne.
Before becoming the enormously popular columnist and critic for the Irish Times, Patrick spent his 20s chasing the rock star dream. But while the life of big hair, hard drugs and tight trousers wasn’t to be, it did give Patrick the time and space required to be one of the creative world’s leading authors, thinkers and sense-talkers. His book ‘Ok, Let’s Do Your Stupid Idea’ is a glorious celebration of curiosity, experimentation and letting your heart lead the way. And now he’s on a mission to dismantle the cult of ‘Big P’ productivity and remind people that ‘maximising your potential’ is a poor substitute for living your life.
This episode is dedicated to Patrick’s wife Anna Carey, who has been his biggest influence. She also has an amazing funny romance fiction book coming out later this year called Our Song.
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Follow Patrick on X and Bluesky
Timestamps:
01:32 - The Concept of Demotivational Speaking
07:36 - Patrick's Early Jobs and Musical Aspirations
09:08 - The Influence of Music on Patrick's Life
12:04 - The Importance of Curiosity in Career Paths
15:18 - Exploring the Idea of 'Stupid Ideas'
17:14 - The Impact of Burnout and Productivity Culture
20:40 - Finding Peace in Accepting Average Productivity
22:37 - Cultural Expectations and Work-Life Balance
25:31 - The Role of Technology in Productivity Anxiety
30:17 - The Dangers of Measurable Metrics
32:03 - Writing Techniques and Approaches
36:30 - The Importance of Rhythm in Writing
39:01 - Listener Questions: Generational Perspectives on Productivity
42:57 - Antidotes to Hustle Culture and Finding Balance
45:27 - Final Thoughts on Productivity and Well-Being
Patrick's Book Recommendations are:
The Fourth Time We Drowned – Sally Hayden
Commonwealth – Anne Patchett
A Visit from Lagoon Squad – Jennifer Egan
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