We live in a world where our civilization and daily lives depend upon institutions, infrastructure, and technological substrates that are _complicated_ but not ...
In this episode, Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) unpacks his 24k word essay Debanking (and Debunking?) originally published on Bits about Money. He discusses the contours of recent debanking claims made by the crypto community, notably Marc Andreessen, Nic Carter, and explains how banking actually works as infrastructure rather than conspiracy. The conversation moves from Operation Chokepoint's documented history to current claims about coordinated action against certain industries, while highlighting how banking access challenges disproportionately affect those who are "relatively less resourced, relatively less educated."–Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/debanking-patrick-mckenzie/–Sponsors: Vanta | GiveWell | CheckVanta automates security compliance and builds trust, helping companies streamline ISO, SOC 2, and AI framework certifications. Learn more at https://vanta.com/complexSupport proven charities that deliver measurable results and learn how to maximize your charitable impact with GiveWell. Go to givewell.org (and type in "Complex Systems" at checkout).Check is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.–Links:Debanking (and Debunking?) https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/debanking-and-debunking/ a16z's Debanking explainer: https://a16zcrypto.com/posts/article/debanking-explained/–Twitter:@patio11@eriktorenberg–Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:19) Marc Andreessen's debanking claims(01:02) Understanding debanking and its implications(02:18) Crypto enthusiasts' perspective(07:43) Operation Chokepoint: A historical context(18:09) Sponsors: Vanta | Check(20:23) Operation Chokepoint 2.0: The present day(22:12) The fall of Silvergate Bank(29:55) Crypto advocates and Silvergate Bank(30:45) Sponsor: GiveWell(31:43) Understanding bank account closures(32:35) Bodegas and money services businesses(36:38) Crypto companies and credit risk(47:24) Debanking and its broader implications(49:24) Political ramifications and free speech(59:27) Wrap
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1:01:30
Retrospective on 2024, with Sammy Cottrell
In this special episode, Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) and his EA/producer Sammy Cottrell examine the production function behind Complex Systems, from studio logistics to transcript annotation and guest selection. They reflect on their most memorable episodes while discussing the podcast's core mission of making complex systems more legible and ensuring valuable content remains freely available on the internet. The conversation explores the subjective best episodes from 2024, plans for the year ahead, and how LLMs might transform both the systems they study and how we write about them.–Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/2024-year-in-review-sammy-cottrell/–Sponsor: Vanta | GiveWell | Check Vanta automates security compliance and builds trust, helping companies streamline ISO, SOC 2, and AI framework certifications. Learn more at https://vanta.com/complexSupport proven charities that deliver measurable results and learn how to maximize your charitable impact with GiveWell. Go to givewell.org (and type in "Complex Systems" at checkout).Check is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.–Links:Ricki Heicklen on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/11kEUYRn4gXZGju232hzcgCasey Handmer on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0GHegWgLSubYxvATmbWhQuDan Davies on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5QKxzgumJXSQuaWCmYAoM9Zvi Mowshowitz on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4itdtJFLCpLQNd2g1zTtdDRoss Rheingans-Yoo on Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4GiO0KYqxJNCIdltCyhN6mPatrick’s talk at Manifest 2024 (Manifold): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiiXq_bE1c Article mentioned - ‘50K in a Shoebox’: https://www.thecut.com/article/amazon-scam-call-ftc-arrest-warrants.htmlCopenhagen theory of culpability: https://laneless.substack.com/p/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics –Twitter:@patio11@haththerescuer–Timestamps:(01:04) Introducing Sammy(01:37) The offscreen symphony behind Complex Systems(07:19) Production supply chain and transcript philosophy(08:40) LLMs of choice(15:11) Sponsors: Vanta | Check(21:21) Favorite episodes(25:49) Sponsor: GiveWell(27:15) Beyoncé(28:47) More subjectively favorite episodes(32:34) Thesis of Complex Systems(34:07) Canon in operations research(40:51) Sabbatical mode(48:52) Bits about Money and other writing in 2024(51:22) On paywalls and not implementing them(54:29) LLM plans for 2025–Complex Systems is part of the Turpentine podcast network.
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1:05:45
Seeing like an outsider, with Yatharth
In this episode, Yatharth (@askyatharth), a graduate student and software engineer, turns the tables to interview Patrick McKenzie (@patio11) about cultural codes, writing, and AI. Patrick shares how his early experiences fighting credit report errors and navigating cross-cultural business environments led to his distinctive approach to understanding and writing about institutional systems. The conversation spans from Patrick's methodical exploration of banking infrastructure to his predictions about LLMs, weaving in personal stories about dating, parenthood, and bridging American and Japanese cultures along the way.–Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/outside-view-yatharth/–Sponsor: CheckCheck is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.–Links:Yatharth’s writing https://itsyatharth.substack.com/Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals Dave Kasten on Complex Systems https://open.spotify.com/episode/66SSmxK2Kpyef7WUxXxS6w?si=5EZYfZ7gThG8WV7hSs1aFQLars Doucet on Complex Systems https://open.spotify.com/episode/2XQjSGCfW6XIu1AFB4oZeR?si=n3C28PymT6m7pPqFb2NE8QBits about Money: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/ –Twitter:@askyatharth@patio11–Timestamps: (00:00) Intro(01:30) Patrick's early interest in credit cards(03:53) Navigating financial challenges(05:10) Becoming a financial advisor(10:35) Cultural and educational insights(18:57) Sponsor: Check(22:14) Personal stories and reflections(25:48) Parenting and cultural integration(33:26) Writing and storytelling journey(37:35) Translating financial systems for a new audience(39:08) The role of AI in writing and style transfer(40:46) The concept of alpha in writing(44:48) Legal advice and AI's role(52:12) The impact of AI on bureaucratic systems(01:04:22) Reflections on government software and policy(01:13:49) Sabbatical insights and future interests(01:18:52) Wrap– Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse.
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1:19:31
The future of pandemic preparedness, with Joshua Morrison
In this episode, Patrick McKenzie (patio11) is joined by Joshua Morrison, the CEO of advocacy non-profit 1Day Sooner. They discuss what worked and what didn't in Operation Warp Speed's unprecedented push to develop COVID-19 vaccines. The conversation then turns to the future of pandemic preparedness, particularly the promising (and underappreciated) clean air technology. Throughout, Joshua and Patrick illuminate how institutional design choices, political incentives, and technical constraints shape our ability to respond to public health challenges.–Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/warp-speed-joshua-morrison/-Sponsors: GiveWell | CheckSupport proven charities that deliver measurable results and learn how to maximize your charitable impact with GiveWell. Go to givewell.org (and type in "Complex Systems" at checkout).Check is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.–Links:1Day Sooner: https://www.1daysooner.org/Patrick’s Complex Systems interview with Ross Rheingans-Yoo: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4GiO0KYqxJNCIdltCyhN6m Patrick's Complex Systems interview with Dave Kasten about building VaccinateCA https://open.spotify.com/episode/66SSmxK2Kpyef7WUxXxS6w?si=VsSJMkktQiSGxtn9bFoOWATakeda's licensing deal with Moderna: https://www.takeda.com/newsroom/newsreleases/2021/takeda-announces-approval-of-modernas-covid-19-vaccine-in-japan/Bits about Money: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/ –Twitter:@joshcmorrison@patio11–Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:56) The role of challenge studies in vaccine development(09:24) Understanding vaccine platforms(18:33) Sponsor: Givewell | Check(19:46) Regulatory system insights and future improvements(20:41) Lessons for our regulatory system(29:55) First doses first debate(37:35) The surprising nature of COVID-19(39:30) Vaccine hesitancy and public communication(42:08) Political influence on vaccine distribution(58:28) Indoor air quality and disease prevention(01:06:52) Future of public health initiatives(01:12:27) Wrap
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1:13:17
How we tax property, with Lars Doucet
In this episode, Patrick McKenzie (patio11) and Lars Doucet, the author of Land is a Big Deal, discuss how cities determine your property's value and collect taxes. They explore how assessment offices juggle political pressures, statistical models, and technological tools while trying to maintain equity across millions of properties. They also cover why assessment offices are separate from tax collectors, how property value protests actually work, and why your neighbor's house might be assessed differently than yours.–Full transcript available here: www.complexsystemspodcast.com/property-assessment-lars-doucet/–Sponsors: GiveWell | CheckSupport proven charities that deliver measurable results and learn how to maximize your charitable impact with GiveWell. Go to givewell.org (and type in "Complex Systems" at checkout).Check is the leading payroll infrastructure provider and pioneer of embedded payroll. Check makes it easy for any SaaS platform to build a payroll business, and already powers 60+ popular platforms. Head to checkhq.com/complex and tell them patio11 sent you.–Links:Lars’ book: https://www.landisabigdeal.com/Lars’ blog: https://www.fortressofdoors.com/ Bits about Money: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/ –Twitter@larsiusprime@patio11–Timestamps(00:00) Introduction(00:23) How property taxes work (Texas Example)(02:45) The political art of avoiding tax rate blame(05:53) Sources of real estate data(08:08) Historical property assessment(11:04) Statutory guidance vs. Actual practice on market value assessment(14:25) Tax rate strategy and sandbagging(15:17) Assessed value vs market value(16:16) Assessment caps and Prop 13 (18:22) Sponsor: GiveWell | Check(20:27) Data collection in the field(22:54) Data collection methods(25:08) Property valuation: Beyond location and correlative factors(26:52) Depreciation of buildings(27:37) Orthodox view of depreciation(30:53) Real estate cultural differences(33:59) Urban redevelopment and land value(36:59) Small business realities and perceptions(46:19) Property tax protests(50:45) Predictive protests(52:19) Accuracy vs equity testing(58:50) Cook county assessor's office(1:01:11) Lars's background(1:05:38) What is GIS?(1:09:52) Wrap
About Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)
We live in a world where our civilization and daily lives depend upon institutions, infrastructure, and technological substrates that are _complicated_ but not _unknowable_. Join Patrick McKenzie (patio11) as he discusses how decisions, technology, culture, and incentives shape our finance, technology, government, and more, with the people who built (and build) those Complex Systems.
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