Rogue L+D Hotshots with Tom Bailey

AI is changing L&D, but Laura Overton believes the real innovation starts somewhere else: in our minds.
In this episode of the Rogue L&D podcast, Tom Bailey is joined by L&D researcher and author Laura Overton to explore what it really takes to create business impact through learning. Laura shares insights from 20 years of research into high-performing L&D teams, the role of innovation and AI, what L&D can learn from strategic marketing, and why curiosity and critical thinking are essential for the future of the profession. She also reflects on her career, Towards Maturity, and her new book, The L&D Leader.

Laura’s Bio
Laura Overton is a researcher and award-winning learning analyst who has spent 35+ years observing how L&D professionals drive business value through continuous disruption. For 15 years she led Towards Maturity, the industry's longest-running global benchmark programme, producing over 70 research reports. Laura is the founder of Learning Changemakers and co-author of The L&D Leader: Principles and Practice for Delivering Business Value (Kogan Page). She is an Academic Fellow of the CIPD and the first woman to receive the LPI Colin Corder Award. Right now, when everyone's talking about navigating unknown territory, her pattern-making helps learning leaders discover new pathways to business impact.
High-performing L&D teams think more like strategic marketers. They start by understanding what the business and its people actually need, rather than trying to match a learning product to the problem.
Laura argues that the real opportunity with AI is asking, "Can I do something today that I couldn't do yesterday?" Technology alone won't transform L&D if we're still operating within the same old definition of what an L&D professional does.
Laura's research has consistently focused on how learning innovation can deliver better business impact. She argues that curiosity, critical thinking and questioning the data are essential, even if you aren't a data analyst yourself.

Key Takeaways
1. Start with the business problem, not the learning solution
2. AI is only as innovative as the thinking behind it
3. L&D needs to get better at understanding business impact

Timestamps:
[00:00:54] Meet Laura Overton and her L&D journey
[00:02:42] What was Towards Maturity?
[00:05:12] Why L&D research needs deeper reflection
[00:08:32] Laura's North Star: learning innovation and business impact
[00:09:36] What is the best learning innovation?
[00:10:44] How AI is changing the way L&D thinks
[00:12:22] What L&D can learn from strategic marketing
[00:14:24] The library programme that transformed frontline behaviour
[00:31:36] How L&D professionals can use research and data
[00:36:28] Laura's advice: be bold, business-aware and open-minded

Links
Laura Overton on LinkedIn

Learning Changemakers Website

Tom Bailey on LinkedIn

Tom Bailey Website
Towards Maturity page

https://www.learningchangemakers.com/articles/the-evolution-of-the-ld-maturity-benchmark/

A Māori ritual, a virtual workshop, and a Cavoodle somehow explain the future of learning and development.
What does great learning actually look like when you strip away the corporate buzzwords, endless modules, and performative workshops? This episode dives deep into the human side of learning and development, from creating genuine learning communities to designing experiences that lead to real behaviour change. The conversation explores why curiosity, inclusion, and connection matter more than ever in an AI-driven world and why many organizations still struggle to move beyond information delivery into meaningful transformation.
The episode also explores how learning spaces can become more inclusive, emotionally safe, and community-driven. Featuring insights from learning designer, facilitator, coach, and Crackin’ LnD founder Darryn Gray, this conversation blends practical L&D thinking with Māori perspectives on learning, connection, and shared growth. From virtual facilitation challenges to the future of human-centered learning, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on what modern development should actually feel like.

Key Takeaways
I’ve learned that real learning happens when people feel safe enough to experiment, contribute, and change — not when they’re overloaded with content. Creating spaces for conversation matters more than building endless programs.
The future of L&D isn’t about competing with AI. It’s about becoming stronger advocates for human connection, behavior change, and inclusive learning experiences.
Community changes everything. When people find spaces where they can openly learn together, share struggles, and challenge ideas, growth becomes faster, more meaningful, and more sustainable.

Timestamps
[00:00] Māori learning rituals and creating sacred learning spaces
[03:12] Transitioning from education into modern L&D
[05:08] Why Crackin’ LnD was created
[09:18] Building an organic L&D community across Australia and New Zealand
[13:18] Why behavior change matters more than content
[15:24] Turning on the “learning light” for struggling learners
[20:48] Creating a Māori and Western braided learning evaluation model
[27:36] When virtual facilitation goes wrong
[34:10] The hidden disability that changed how learning was designed
[38:42] The best advice for anyone working in L&D

Links
Darryn Gray on LinkedIn
Darryn Gray Consulting
Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
Tom Bailey Website

While much of the L&D world is focused on AI, Andrew Lawson has doubled down on neuroscience and the results speak for themselves.

What makes learning truly stick?

In this episode of Rogue L&D, Tom Bailey sits down with 2026 AITD Learning and Development Professional of the Year, Andrew Lawson, to explore the neuroscience behind effective workplace learning.

Andrew shares his journey from struggling through school as a neurodiverse learner to becoming one of Australia's most respected L&D practitioners. He explains why he believes learning should be delivered in short, focused bursts, how neuroscience can dramatically improve learning transfer, and the six elements that underpin his learning design model.

The conversation covers facilitation, curiosity, performance consulting, workplace application, and why understanding the real business problem is often more important than delivering training.

Whether you're an L&D professional, facilitator, consultant or people leader, this episode offers practical insights into creating learning experiences that people actually remember and use.

Key Takeaways

1. Learning works best in small, focused bursts

Andrew believes 90 minutes is the optimal maximum learning window, allowing facilitators to work with the brain rather than against it.

2. Learning transfer matters more than learning delivery

The real value comes from helping people apply ideas back in the workplace through simple experiments and deliberate practice.

3. Curiosity is one of the most important skills in L&D

Great practitioners resist jumping to solutions and instead spend time understanding the real business problem.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Welcome to Rogue L&D
[00:00:45] Andrew's origin story: struggling at school, falling for how memory works
[00:03:00] David Rock, the AGES model, and standing on giants' shoulders
[00:04:15] Winning L&D Professional of the Year 2026
[00:06:00] Betting on neuroscience while the industry chases AI
[00:07:15] Bite Size Learning: why 90 minutes is the ceiling
[00:12:00] The program that beat "eight years of learning in eight months"
[00:13:40] The special sauce: contracting, context, and tiny experiments
[00:15:15] Interlude: the three-tier thumbs up (and when it offends)
[00:18:20] The facilitation skill he never trained for
[00:21:00] Proudest moment, and why peer validation hits different
[00:24:00] Starstruck: the day a Brumbies legend walked into his workshop
[00:27:00] The thing nobody knows: economics, surf lifesaving, and a career pivot
[00:31:30] The model: Time, Attention, Relevance, Generation, Emotion, Retention
[00:36:15] Best advice: stay curious, don't jump to the solution
[00:38:00] When half the room got laid off on Friday
[00:41:00] ATD America and the bucket-list conference
[00:43:30] Where to find Andrew

Links:
Andrew Lawson on LinkedIn
The Learning Zone
Just Ninety
Best Practice Consulting
Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
Tom Bailey Website

Most training requests are just guesses and they’re costing you more than you think.

Most organizations are flooded with training requests. But what if those requests are solving the wrong problems? This episode explores how shifting from a training mindset to a performance mindset can completely change the value L&D delivers. It breaks down how to challenge assumptions, ask better questions, and focus on measurable outcomes that actually move the business forward.
Nigel Harrison, a psychologist and global expert in performance consulting with decades of experience advising organizations worldwide, shares a practical model for uncovering real performance gaps and identifying solutions that go far beyond training. The conversation dives into how to build trust with stakeholders, avoid becoming an order taker, and reposition L&D as a true business partner driving meaningful results.

Key Takeaways
I’ve learned that most requests for training are actually requests for solutions—not clearly defined problems—and jumping straight to delivery adds no value.
I now focus on identifying performance gaps first, using questions to uncover what’s really happening and what success actually looks like.
I’ve realized that building rapport and understanding the client’s world is what allows me to challenge assumptions without resistance.

Timestamps
[00:00] Introduction to performance consulting
[01:30] Why training is often the wrong starting point
[03:00] The shift from training to performance thinking
[05:00] Why managers jump to solutions
[07:00] How to respond to training requests effectively
[10:00] The 3 phases of the performance consulting model
[12:00] Measuring performance gaps (not training outcomes)
[16:00] Why training needs analysis is flawed
[20:00] Psychology, rapport, and influencing clients
[28:00] Real-world example: solving without training
[35:00] The shift to virtual coaching and better outcomes
[39:00] The single most powerful question to ask

Links
Nigel Harrison on LinkedIn
Performance Consulting
Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
Tom Bailey Website
Books by Nigel Harrison

Most L&D teams are solving the wrong problems and Natal Dank explains why

A pioneer in business and HR agility, Natal Dank joins the Rogue L and D Podcast to challenge everything you think you know about learning and development.
Natal is a globally recognised workplace transformation specialist, author of Agile HR and Agile L&D, and Executive Director at PXO Culture. Known for her evidence based, value led approach, she works with organisations worldwide to improve performance, productivity, and the experience of work.
In this episode, Natal shares why L&D must stop jumping to solutions and start solving real business problems. She breaks down what it means to work product led, how to prioritise the right challenges, and why Agile as an industry may have lost its way.
If you want to move from delivering training to driving measurable impact, this conversation is essential listening.

Key Takeaways
You need to stop treating requests as learning problems and instead focus on solving real business challenges that impact performance
You should prioritise ruthlessly because there are always more problems than capacity and not all are worth solving
You must test and validate solutions early rather than jumping straight into building full programmes

Timestamps
[00:04:10] Delivering value vs delivering training
[00:05:15] Employee experience as a product
[00:06:20] Why onboarding is a shared problem
[00:07:10] The real skill is prioritisation
[00:08:05] Stop jumping to solutions
[00:11:35] It is not a learning problem
[00:13:10] Design thinking in L&D
[00:14:05] The internal job marketplace experiment
[00:18:00] Measuring real performance outcomes
[00:19:15] Agile HR is dead explained

Links
Natal Dank on LinkedIn
Natal Dank’s Website
Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
Tom Bailey Website
PXO Culture