Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

David Pocock is one of Australia's most influential politicians, working as the Senator of the Australian Capital Territory. He brings a distinctive perspective to some of the country's biggest debates, from climate policy and energy security to democratic reform and the future of work.

A former captain of the Australian rugby team, David entered politics after years of speaking out on issues including climate change, equality and environmental protection. Four years into his Senate career, he joins Michael Liebreich to explain how independent politics works in practice, what he's hearing from voters across Australia, his campaign to tax natural gas exports, and why he believes the country's clean energy transition must deliver lower household bills as well as lower emissions.

The conversation explores Australia's world-leading rooftop solar uptake, the barriers slowing electric vehicle adoption, and why David believes Australians deserve a greater return from the country's gas exports. They also look ahead to the rise of AI and data centres, asking whether governments are paying enough attention to the implications for jobs, tax revenues and energy demand.

Topics covered in this week's episode:

David’s journey from rugby player to Senator

Australian voters' priorities

Lowering household energy bills

Australia's clean energy successes

Why EV adoption lags

Taxing Australia's gas exports

Data centres and energy demand

AI concerns and the future of work

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

David Pocock’s bio: https://www.davidpocock.com.au/about

David Pocock “Chains himself to digger” news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/30272670

Aksel Lund Svindal on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRc1VCBnVgI

Alex Honnold on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmQf0mhHkE

Prince Albert of Monaco on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-eYHKpDBYU

Håkan Agnevall (Wärtsilä) on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYjGT55g5A

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/

Acronyms:

C&I: Commercial and Industrial

ICE: Internal Combustion Engine

ACT: Australian Capital Territory

Chapters:

00:00 Intro

01:48 From Rugby to Politics

11:46 Getting Arrested For Activism

16:35 What Voters Want

20:34 Rising Voter Frustration

26:16 Australia's Energy Report

28:57 Why EVs Lag Behind

31:19 Taxing Gas Exports

36:09 Data Centre Dilemma

39:46 AI vs Human Jobs

44:47 Delivering Real Results

49:44 Outro

The UK is heavily exposed to global energy markets and has some of the highest electricity prices in Europe. At the same time, vast amounts of heat generated across industry and infrastructure go unused. Whether it should be called "waste" is a matter of debate, but could making better use of the energy we already produce be one of the biggest untapped opportunities in the energy transition?

This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Jonathan Maxwell, founder and CEO of SDCL, a specialist investment firm focused on energy efficiency. They explore why energy efficiency should be treated as a strategic resource, why “waste” heat could become one of Europe's most overlooked energy resources, and how Europe and the UK can strengthen its energy resilience following renewed tensions in the Strait of Hormuz.  

They discuss the economics of gas versus electricity, the rapid growth of AI-driven data centres and their power requirements, and how long-term infrastructure investment can help build a more resilient, affordable and efficient energy system.

Topics covered in this episode:

The Strait of Hormuz and Europe's energy security

The UK's energy system and the cost of electrification

Gas versus electricity pricing

Debating “waste” heat and energy efficiency

AI, data centres and growing power demand

Powering and cooling next-generation infrastructure

Infrastructure investment and portfolio management

Europe's energy transition beyond the AI boom

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Jonathan Maxwell’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-maxwell-a121a533/

Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2YWPqBPHk

Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2023: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OTbyOxYUpg

Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqrtr2lePM8

Jonathan’s substack: https://jonathanmaxwell.substack.com/

The Edge by Jonathan Maxwell: https://the-edge-book.com/product/the-edge-by-jonathan-maxwell/

SDCL: https://www.sdclgroup.com/

Ed Conway on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvEExdYeEU

Robert Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w 

Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ 

Acronyms:

LNG: Liquified Natural Gas

JCPOA: Joint and Comprehensive Plan of Action

CHP: Combined Heat and Power

PUE: Power Usage Effectiveness

CCHP: Combined Cooling Heat and Power

EBITDA: Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortisation

Chapters:

00:00 - Europe's Energy Security

05:11 - Strait of Hormuz Impact

15:39 - Electrifying the UK

23:14 - Gas vs Electricity

28:56 - Waste Heat Debate

32:14 - Powering Data Centres

42:20 - AI Investment

46:42 - Cooling Data Centres

52:16 - Managing Energy Assets

01:06:47 - Outro

Across huge swathes of the global economy, clean solutions are already cheaper than their fossil alternatives, and so a carbon price isn’t needed. But in other sections of the economy, the costs of green tech are higher, and so carbon pricing will be needed to make them cost competitive. But what should that price be, and how can it be successfully implemented?

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Professor Ross Garnaut, a towering figure in the debate about how to implement carbon pricing, and founder of the Superpower Institute. Having advised successive Australian governments on climate policy since 2007, Ross makes the case for how Australia can export green iron, ammonia, and carbon-based fuels to industrialised economies that don't have the land or renewable resources to decarbonise on their own.

They discuss the political history behind Australia's stop-start carbon pricing, the debate over whether green hydrogen can ever get cheap enough to make the superpower vision work, and how First Nations communities are shaping decisions about the land at the centre of it. They also explore the tension between protectionism and genuine security concerns over Chinese supply chains, and whether China's undervalued currency is really what's holding back Australia's competitiveness.

Topics covered in this episode:

Australian climate policy under different Prime Ministers

Australia as a low-carbon superpower

Exporting molecules vs exporting electricity

First Nations involvement in land use

The green hydrogen cost debate

Protectionism vs. security concerns

Pinning down an actual carbon price

Trade imbalances and exchange rates

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live.

Links:

Watch our full Deep Dive Australia Series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8cNKXCII70&si=GmXz-zQe3yK42V3o

Ross Garnaut’s bio: https://www.rossgarnaut.com.au/

Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU

Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY

The Superpower Institute: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/

The SuperPower Institute reports: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/work?type=report

Ross' book — Superpower: Australia's Low-Carbon Opportunity by Ross Garnaut: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/superpower

At the beginning of 2022, Europe was sourcing around 40% of its gas from Russia. By the end of this year, no more gas should be flowing from Russia into Europe. 

Much of that shortfall has been replaced by production from the vast oil and gas fields of Norway's North Sea continental shelf. And this year, the closure of the Strait of Hormuz again highlighted the importance of Norway to Europe's resilience. But how does one of the world's largest oil and gas producers balance energy security with the race to net zero?

This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Anders Opedal, CEO of Equinor, Norway's state-backed energy company. Having spent almost three decades at the company, Anders discusses Equinor's strategy for producing lower-emissions oil and gas while investing heavily in offshore wind, carbon capture and storage, and the technologies needed for the energy transition. 

They also explore the impact of fugitive methane emissions, the realities of carbon capture, the economics of offshore wind, and why Norway believes it can continue supplying oil and gas for decades to come.

Topics covered:

How Russia disrupted European gas supplies

Meeting Europe's gas demand

The Strait of Hormuz and energy prices

Tax, financing and investment

Equinor's partnership with Shell

Carbon capture and storage (CCS)

Can the UK replicate Norway's success? 

Offshore wind development

Reducing methane emissions and gas flaring

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links: 

Anders Opedal’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andersopedalequinor/

Equinor: https://www.equinor.com/

Northern Lights project: https://www.equinor.com/energy/northern-lights

Sign up to our newsletter: cleaninguppod.substack.com

Amber Rudd on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZOokwqLaRc

Ben van Beurden on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImWveH7Xn0

Michael Lewis on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOD-f6uSPgc

Acronyms:

TTF: Title Transfer Facility 

BTU: British Thermal Units

FID: Final Investment Decision

CCS: Carbon Capture and Storage

OGCI: Oil and Gas Climate Initiative

OGDC: Oil and Gas Decarbonisation Charter

Victoria is undertaking one of Australia's most ambitious electricity transitions. The state is aiming for 65% renewable electricity by 2030 and 95% by 2035, replacing ageing coal-fired power stations with renewable electricity, batteries and offshore wind while keeping the lights on and consumers' bills down.

This week on Cleaning Up’s Deep Dive Australia, Michael Liebreich is joined by Lily D'Ambrosio, Victoria's Minister for Climate Action, Energy and the State Electricity Commission, who has overseen the state's energy transition for more than a decade.

Together Minister D’Ambrosio and Michael examine the policies driving the transition, from renewable energy auctions and large-scale batteries, to offshore wind and transmission planning. Michael also challenges the Minister on some of the most controversial aspects of Victoria's strategy, including unpublished modelling, coal closure agreements, and the politics of moving households away from gas.

Topics:

Victoria's energy transition and the role of state governments

Replacing coal with renewables

Batteries, electricity markets and falling wholesale prices

Coal plant closures and investor certainty

Transparency, modelling and political accountability

Transmission, community opposition and Renewable Energy Zones

Offshore wind and the future generation mix

Gas, household electrification and cost of living

Leadership, public confidence and delivering the transition

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Lily D’Ambrosio’s bio: https://www.victorianchamber.com.au/profile/lily-dambrosio

Sign up to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com

EnergyAustralia: https://www.energyaustralia.com.au/

AGL: https://www.agl.com.au/ 

VicGrid: https://www.vicgrid.com.au/

Western Renewable Link: https://www.westernrenewableslink.com.au/

Offshore wind: https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/offshore-wind-energy/offshore-wind-energy-victoria

Gas substitution roadmap: https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/victorias-gas-substitution-roadmap

Open Electricity: https://openelectricity.org.au/

Acronyms:

CSIRO: Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organisation