You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.
I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you’ll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.
👉 Also- just announced- I’m teaching a workshop next week: “Parenting Strong-Willed Kids: Tools to Reduce Power Struggles without Crushing Their Spirit.” All the details HERE.
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We talk about:
* 00:00 — Introduction to Lenore Skenazy
* 03:00 — The disappearance of unstructured childhood and why kids need risk, boredom, and problem-solving
* 06:00 — How independence builds confidence
* 08:00 — The social pressure parents feel
* 09:00 — How communities can bring back free play
* 15:00 — What kids learn through unsupervised play
* 19:00 — Why kids prefer real-world play to screens
* 24:00 — How fear reshaped parenting
* 29:00 — The rise of tracking and constant surveillance
* 34:00 — Independence and mental health
* 37:00 — The Let Grow Experience
* 41:00 — Kids are not actually addicted to screens
* 42:00 — Bringing back the teenage babysitter
* 46:00 — How giving kids independence reduces the pressure of intensive parenting
* 49:00 — The value of “kid world”
* 50:00 — Lenore’s advice to her younger parent self
Resources mentioned in this episode:
* Lenore’s Book Free Range Kids
* Two free independence-building programs for schools
* The free “Four Weeks to a Let Grow Kid” program
* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
* The Peaceful Parenting Membership
* Evelyn & Bobbie bras
* Strong-Willed Kids Workshop
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* Instagram
* Facebook Group
* YouTube
* Website
* Join us on Substack
* Newsletter
* Book a short consult or coaching session call
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Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Lenore Skenazy. You might know her as the author of the book Free-Range Kids and the founder of the movement of the same name. Now she’s president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit she co-founded with Peter Gray, Daniel Shuchman, and Jonathan Haidt. Their mission: making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back some old-fashioned independence.
Lenore says our kids are smarter, safer, and stronger than our culture gives them credit for. If you’re worried about the ubiquitousness of screens in your child’s life and/or about the rise of childhood anxiety, you’re going to want to have a listen to this episode. Lenore and I discussed the importance of unstructured, unsupervised time in childhood, why it disappeared, how to bring it back, and what happens when we do or don’t.
She was so much fun to speak with, and her message is one that all parents need to hear and that all kids want them to hear.
I just loved this conversation with Lenore, and I know you will too. Okay. Let’s meet Lenore.
Sarah: Hi, Lenore. Welcome to the podcast.
Lenore: Thank you, Sarah. I am happy to be here, wherever here is.
Sarah: Well, I’m so excited to talk to you. I’ve followed your work since you were called the Worst Mom in America, back in the beginning of your Free-Range Kids days. I’m so excited about your new project that you’ve been working on. So maybe, if you could just introduce yourself and tell us who you are and what you do.
Lenore: Sure. I am Lenore Skenazy. I live in New York City. I have two grown kids—growing, grown, whatever you want to say. When are they done? I don’t know. But I wrote the book Free-Range Kids, and I am now president of Let Grow, which is the nonprofit that’s promoting childhood independence.
Sarah: I love it. I was recently—this, I promise, is going to make sense when I get back to it—but I recently listened to the memoir of Patti Smith, the artist and musician, and she talked a lot about her childhood growing up in the fifties, and how unsupervised and unstructured it was, and all of that. She had really great memories of playing in the woods, and the games that she would make up with her brothers and all of the neighborhood kids and the things that they would do. And I really wondered: is that kind of childhood why she became such a creative person and, you know, a successful person in that way? And it made me feel sad for that kind of childhood that’s lost to kids today.
So why don’t kids have that sort of unstructured, unsupervised play, like maybe you and I even grew up with? Because I know I did, for sure.
Lenore: I did, for sure, too. And everybody did. Some people ended up being Patti Smith, and most of us didn’t. Nonetheless, I’m sorry to see it evaporating too.
One of my recent analogies is that the rainforest was sort of disappearing, but we didn’t notice until we looked at pictures from before and after, from 1970 till now, and it’s like, oh my God, that’s the earth’s lungs, and look how small they’ve gotten. And I feel that same way about unsupervised time in childhood. It’s this natural resource. It’s something that all kids thrive on having, and we just keep shrinking it and replacing it with organized and supervised activities that we think are better, that we think, oh, now they’re learning chess, or they’ve made it to the travel lacrosse team—that has to be good. You’re up in Canada: made it to the travel hockey team. That’s gotta be good. More time in the luge—that’s wonderful, right?
But in fact, what kids really need, and what their whole innards are programmed to expect, is all sorts of time when they’re making up their own games, when they’re dealing with some fears and some squabbles with their friends as they figure out, what are we gonna do today? And, you know, is that tree gonna be too hard to climb? Let me try.
Without those everyday experiences of a little bit of fear, a little bit of risk, some exhilaration that nobody is there to give you credit for or a trophy for or a grade for, there’s something called the internal locus of control.
Internal locus of control is when you feel you can handle things. Things will come at you and you’ll deal, because you are confident and competent enough. An external locus of control is when you feel others are both manipulating you and taking care of you, that your fate is in someone else’s hands.
We’ve sort of swapped the internal locus of control of Patti Smith’s childhood and our childhoods for this external locus of control where somebody’s saying, okay, it’s three o’clock, I’m gonna pick you up, and then we get you to dance, and then we got Kumon, and then there’s homework, and then there’s dinnertime, and 20 minutes exactly of reading, because that’s how you’re gonna turn into a kid who loves reading. “Okay, start. Stop. I really love that. Really fell into that book.”
What I’m trying to say is that Mother Nature expected kids to get all of this give and take and excitement and confusion, and when we take it out, kids end up drooping because it’s like they haven’t gotten something very necessary for their development, sort of like food, except it’s independence and it’s free play. And we keep looking around saying, oh, it must be COVID that’s making kids so depressed. It must be phones that are making kids so anxious. And I think it’s just the fact that they have this very strange childhood, unlike what the system expects. And when you’re missing something foundational, you droop.
Sarah: Our mutual friend Ned Johnson, who’s a co-author of The Self-Driven Child—
Lenore: Love it.
Sarah: They talk a lot in that book about how we want our kids to be self-driven, but that self-drive and autonomy are correlated, in that when autonomy goes down, so does self-drive.
Lenore: They are the same thing! It’s so funny because we say we want self-driven kids, and then we drive them. Literally drive them to the Kumon and the Jazzercise.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s—I mean, I want to come back to, when kids have time on their own, they learn that they can figure it out. But just on a funny note about that self-driven and driving them places, it’s really hard to raise your kids this way—with unstructured, unsupervised time—when nobody else is doing it.
I remember, I live in a big city, and from the age of 12, when my kids were—I thought 12 was a good age for them to start getting around the city by themselves. They did. And of course, it wasn’t just like, okay, all of a sudden you’re going on the subway by yourself, but we worked up to it. So by the time they were 12, they were capable.
But I got so much judgment from other parents. My middle son played baseball, and he would get himself to practices and get himself home. And there were parents who would insist on giving him rides because they were concerned about him going on the subway by himself. And then I kind of had to give myself little reassurances, like, it’s okay, it’s okay if they’re judging you for having your kids be out and about by themselves. But how do you—maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, because we could talk about some ideas first—but when you are doing this on your own, say you’re letting your kids do things that you think are age-appropriate, developmentally appropriate, and then other people aren’t, what are some ways that parents can kind of give themselves some self-talk? What should I have told myself back then?
Lenore: Okay, I’m not going to talk about self-talk. I’m going to talk about changing the culture that you’re in so that you’re not the only one sending your kid to the park. And then also what Let Grow, the nonprofit I run, suggests in terms of giving kids back an easy way to give kids back some of this free play that we’re talking about.
First of all, if you want your kid to be playing outside, it’s no fun for them to play outside—whether people think you’re the worst mom or not—if they go outside to the park and, let’s see, I can keep going down the slide. That’s a lot of fun. You know, you need somebody to play tag with. You need somebody to talk to. You need somebody to swing next to or to push you.
So how do you get that? You talk to some of the other parents in the neighborhood and you say, let’s set up Free Play Fridays, right? I know everybody’s really busy, but a Friday afternoon before the weekend begins—how about from three to five, we all let our kids just play at the park together?
And I’ve heard about this working in many communities, including one 12-year-old who was so bored—I don’t know how he found out about it; I guess his mom must have known me or something—who went and put postcards in all the neighbors’ mailboxes, and he ended up with like 20 or 25 kids playing on Friday afternoons because he said, hey, let’s all meet, and parents, you don’t have to come. It’s not impossible to renormalize the idea of free play in a neighborhood.
And if you can’t get a bunch of kids coming together at the park, another idea somebody once sent to Let Grow, which I love—she called it a friendship club or friendship camp because she did it during summer. And it was simply this: in your neighborhood, there are probably some families that also would like to see their kids playing more, especially during the summer perhaps. And so what she did is she sort of made a pact with three or four other families that, look, my kid can knock on your kid’s door, your kids can knock on my kid’s door, and if my kid’s available, then that’s it. They’ll play. I won’t supervise them. I’ll know that they’re there. They can play outside, inside.
And that way you’ve sort of made it like the fifties. So now there’s kids going around the neighborhood knocking on each other’s doors, and that way you don’t have to worry about planning a play date, and you don’t have to have a phone involved. It’s just going door to door and finding these three or four friends who’s around.
People have started swearing by the landlines that you can buy now, or these pseudo-landlines. There’s one called Tin Can. And so kids can call up each other and set up a play date without falling into a phone and then never coming out again.
So those are all ways that you can sort of make free play happen again in your neighborhood. But what Let Grow recommends on top of all those is trying to get—we have something we call a Let Grow Play Club, but we might change the name for middle and high school because play sounds so babyish. And really what we’re talking about is the—
Sarah: Hang club. Call it the Hang Club.
Lenore: The Hanging Club. I was thinking of calling it the third—I can’t remember if it’s called a third space or a third place—but like when Starbucks started, everyone was excited because now there’s a third place. It’s not work and it’s not home. We can go and hang out.
So this would be having schools stay open for mixed-age, no-phones free play.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: And it solves so many problems. First of all, if you send kids home to play, we just discussed that oftentimes they won’t end up at the park because there’s nobody else at the park. So they’ll be back in their room on a phone, or you’re paying a lot of money and spending a lot of time driving them someplace else to be on an organized team, league, whatever. But at school, all the kids are already there, right? So it’s just a question of them staying a little longer.
If you’re in a very dangerous, scary neighborhood, you’re not sending them to the park. You’re just saying, you know, how about from three to five, four days a week, there could be a play club where there’s an adult supervising, but like a lifeguard.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: Right? So they’re not organizing games. They’re not solving the problems, the arguments. They’re just watching and they’re there in case of a shark or some other emergency.
And then the kids—and then you leave some stuff out for the kids. And actually, you’ll see this particular idea recommended in The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, who’s one of my co-founders of Let Grow. And one of the coolest things I found out, because I was helping him on the chapter for schools, was if you’re having a Let Grow Play Club after school, you should always have some really big sandbags there for the kids to play with. And do you know why?
Sarah: No.
Lenore: Take a guess. What’s the good of a sandbag?
Sarah: Like, how big are the sandbags you’re talking about?
Lenore: Like the size of a pillow.
Sarah: Okay.
Lenore: Like a filled pillow.
Sarah: For bases.
Lenore: Yeah, that’s something you could definitely use for bases.
Sarah: For some, any kind of markers and games.
Lenore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And for building. And the sort of sneaky reason for having sandbags is that a kid can’t carry them by themself.
Sarah: Oh, it involves cooperation.
Lenore: It automatically creates cooperation, which is what playing in the woods does, which is what organizing a game of baseball does. And you want kids to have these easy ways of interacting and getting to know each other, the non-awkward ways.
Sarah: Right.
Lenore: And saying, hey, help me with this. Or like, look, we gotta bring this over here, it’s third base. Yeah, you’re doing something together and you’re automatically starting a relationship without any kind of like, “Will you be my friend?” Right. Or “I’m so lonely, Lily.” It’s not that.
And that’s what play has always done. Who are your friends? As Peter Gray, who’s another one of my Let Grow co-founders and a professor of psychology, says: when you’re a kid, a friend is defined as a kid you play with.
Sarah: Right.
Lenore: You know, “I’m going to Julie’s house.” What are we gonna do? “We’re gonna play.” Okay. I’ll see you at seven.
And so you want to have a bunch of stuff that—the technical term, I guess it’s not that technical, is loose parts.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: You want to have loose parts out there, and kids can bring them from home. And I’m talking remote-control cars and old suitcases and fabric and some rope or PVC pipe. Kids just figure out what to do with it. And so they’re being creative, and they’re explaining, “No, we’re gonna build it this way.” That’s communication. And then they’re cooperating.
“We’re gonna drag this bag over here.” And all the social-emotional skills that kids are getting now in worksheets on the rug during their social-emotional-skills-building time, you know, or little cards that say, “Remember, you’re not alone. Remember, people like you. You are good. You’re kind.” It’s like all this sort of fallacious confidence and connection happens automatically through play.
You play with the kids you like, and frankly, if you’re a total jerk and nobody wants to play with you, you start recognizing that and adjusting.
We’ve seen this in a play club. My favorite story about a play club was a kid who—everybody was jumping into a leaf pile. It was down in South Carolina. And they’d jump in the middle, and it’d be really fun, or they’d do a cartwheel into the middle, whatever, and then they’d leave and then it’d be the next kids. And they were organizing themselves.
And then one kid jumped into the middle of the leaf pile and would not budge. He was just there. And everyone’s like, “Hey, get out of the way. Hey, you’re in the way. Move already. Hey, it’s my turn.” And he was just like, “I can’t hear you.”
And so finally the kids said, “Well, let’s just jump around him. There’s enough leaves.” And so they started doing that, and then the kid—the middle-of-the-leaf-pile kid—walked off.
And what’s wonderful about this is that the kids saw a problem, tried a solution—move, move, move—that didn’t work, and then came up with another solution: ignore him.
And had there been an adult who was jumping in to save them, to save the leaf-pile day, first of all, the kid would’ve gotten all the attention, because the other kids would just be waiting while the teacher says, “Now, you know, Aiden, we don’t sit in the middle of a leaf pile. There are other children. You see them there.” And then the kids—that would’ve been completely nothing. They just would’ve been waiting for an adult, as always, to solve the problem.
And they wouldn’t have been creative and they wouldn’t have been working together to solve a problem. But instead they did. And so that’s why you need free play, so that all those skills come into play. And by the way, it’s fun and it’s what kids should be doing.
But if you have a school starting a play club, all our materials are free, and they basically explain the philosophy behind why loose-parts free play is good and why it’s great to have different ages together because, you know, the older kids sort of are nicer to the younger kids.
Peter Gray always says, if you have seven-year-olds trying to play a card game together, it’s a disaster. It cannot work. But if you have nine-year-olds with the seven-year-olds, the nine-year-olds are so cool that the seven-year-olds want to be like them. And then the nine-year-olds are saying, like, hold up your hand. We can see your cards. Don’t put the—you know, don’t put an ace down. And they take the ace and they put it back in the kid’s hand. You don’t throw the ace down until the end.
And so it sounds like maybe some yelling or whining or complaining, and yet it’s education. And the older kids are learning how to explain a game, and the younger kids are learning how to be the older kids. And we keep segregating kids by age so that it’s only seven-year-olds against seven-year-olds in baseball or soccer or hockey, and all you know is who’s the fastest and who’s the best.
Sarah: I love it. I was watching some of the videos on your website, and there was one, a free play after school video, and the loose parts in this video were cardboard.
Lenore: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And it actually—it’s going to make me cry—it moved me to tears, watching these kids. And there was this one scene of all these little kids, the game was two kids hold up the cardboard and another kid runs through it. And there was this clip of them working out whose turn it was and who was going to go next. And then they’re just doing the activity, and all the other things they were doing with the cardboard. It was so—they were all so immersed and at times joyful, and it was just so great to see, like, so wonderful to see. I really think it’s so great what you are doing.
And I think, you know, a lot of Jonathan Haidt’s book was about screens, and everyone’s worried about screens, and I think you talk about this too: the reason it becomes this vicious cycle, like a chicken and egg, is kids don’t have anything to do, parents don’t have anything for them to do, so they are on screens. And then they’re on screens and then they don’t get out and play. So it sounds like part of the answer here is doing the—getting the play going first.
Lenore: Yeah. First of all, I love that video too. And what I love about that game they’re playing with the two kids holding a piece of cardboard, and they’re all arguing like, who’s gonna go first to punch the cardboard? Which doesn’t seem like the funnest game in the world, but they were so eager. It’s like, “You’ll go first, then I’ll go.” “No, no, he’ll go and then I’ll go and then you’ll go.” It is just such a beautiful thing to see. And it’s all the different ages, it’s all the different races, and it all seems to be boys because who’s stupid enough to—
Sarah: The girls don’t want to punch cardboard. My kid one time was telling me about her two friends who were boys who were doing this thing as they were riding their bikes down the street, and they were spitting up into the air ahead of themselves and then trying to ride through the spit. And she was like, “Only boys would do that.”
Lenore: That is just weird.
Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag.
Lenore: It sounds really smart.
Sarah: So anyways—
Lenore: No, no, I did grow up here, but we also don’t have milk cartons. We have milk bags. That sounds really smart.
Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag. Everybody in—at least in Eastern Canada—we have like a plastic pitcher that’s got an open top, and the milk comes in a big bag with three smaller, like liter-and-a-half bags in it. Just picture a bag of milk.
Lenore: A bag of bags.
Sarah: You put your bag of milk in the pitcher and you snip a little hole in the corner. And then you pour it from the pitcher in the bag, and it’s far less waste than four gallons.
Lenore: Be Canadians. What can I say? We’ve got it all.
Sarah: So anyways, no, no, I did grow up in the US though, and we did have the pictures on the milk cartons.
Lenore: Right. So those pictures on the milk cartons did a number on us because, first of all, they said, like, “Have you seen me?” or “Missing,” and they never had a little asterisk that says, “I was taken in a custodial dispute between my divorcing parents.”
Sarah: Right.
Lenore: Because that was the vast majority of the kids, or they were runaways. But it felt like, since nobody explained this, that these were all children who were kidnapped by strangers off the street while riding their bike or walking home.
That’s also the era we got cable television, which gave us the 24-hour news cycle, which had never been part of anybody’s life until then.
And then there was when Adam Walsh was taken—it was a horrible story—but his dad was John Walsh, and he started America’s Most Wanted, and he went around the country and in fact ended up testifying in front of Congress that 50,000 children are kidnapped and murdered every year, which was off by a factor of about 50,000. Because it’s extraordinarily rare.
And so it just started seeming like, you know, you open the door and you let your kid outside and you’ll never see them again. Ann Landers or Dear Abby—or one of the advice columnists of the era—said that you better take, you know, try to write down or take a picture of your child before they leave for school, so you know what they’re wearing, because you won’t be able to give the information.
There was just a lot of panic about something that is extraordinarily rare.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: And so it just became the norm to not let them out of our sight. And then a couple of other things happened in tandem with this. One is, of course, we’re in a litigious society, and so schools thinking like, well, what if something bad does happen, even though it probably won’t? We don’t want to be sued. Let’s just say that no kid can get off the bus, or that no kid can play on the monkey bars, or that we can’t have any swings.
And then you have experts, and experts are always trying to tell you something really scary that they’re an expert in, that if you don’t do this, you know, something terrible will happen. Parents magazine would come—like, you gotta give it to those editors at Parents magazine—they had to come up with something terrifying every month.
Sarah: Well, it sells, right? And headlines, you know, clicks today and headlines.
Lenore: Right. And then there’s a marketplace, and the marketplace is always trying to figure out something that can sell, and sell a lot. And the best thing you can do is sell parents a product that’s going to save their kid from something horrible.
I was just reading a study that was done about tracking devices, and I think at this point it was like 86% of parents track their kids. And, you know, some tell them that they’re being tracked and some don’t.
There’s the Gizmo watch. If you buy it for your kid, it’s a tracking device and a phone. And if they don’t pick up the phone, what happens?
Sarah: 911.
Lenore: No, that’d be really terrible. I mean, I can—
Sarah: I can picture it.
Lenore: I could picture it too, but right now what happens is that it turns into a bugging device.
Sarah: Oh gosh.
Lenore: So that you can listen to see, is your kid like, “No, get away from me, stranger”? Or—you know—but it also allows parents to hear, like, “I hate my sister,” or “I’m mad at my teacher,” or “I ate a candy bar.” I mean, it just gives kids no life outside of constant surveillance, which is what we used to do with prisoners on work release. They had this kind of monitoring, right? They had an ankle monitor and you could see if the guy was going to work and then coming right back home. And even the prisoners knew that this was better than prison. Beats prison, right? But it’s not freedom.
Sarah: Yeah.
Lenore: What does a lack of freedom do to kids? I think the biggest thing is that it tells them two things. One is that the world is so scary and bad that you better not just be out there on your own, and also that your parents don’t think you can handle being out there on your own.
And I’ve been trying to grapple with this for a while. I was talking to these teenagers, and it was about eight years ago at this point, because at that point not everybody was tracked yet. But one of the kids who was tracked said to me something really strange. He said, “I just wish that I”—he was over 16—“I wish I’d get pulled over for speeding.”
I was like, that’s a very strange wish. Why?
And he said, “Because I would have to deal with it myself.”
He was longing—I mean, I think there’s this human longing to see what you’re made of and to prove to yourself and to the world that you can handle something on your own.
And with the ability to always be tracked by your parents and always press a button and be connected to your parents, your parents are on call for you in a way that was never possible until just now.
And it’s nice to help. You know, you want to help your kids. So if they call—my kids to this day, they’re in their twenties—if they call, they’re having a problem, I will help. But the instantaneousness of it means that without trying to figure out an answer, solve something on their own, kids can reach you and then you solve it. So you don’t know what they’re capable of and they don’t know what they’re capable of.
And so then you answer the next time, and the next time, and the next time, and you track them. And nobody ever gets the peace of mind. You know, the tracking devices say they’ll provide peace of mind, but they provide the opposite because, yes, it’s nice to know they’re gonna be home in time for dinner, but you also don’t know that, like if they were on a trip or even walking home or riding their bike and their chain fell off their bike—it’s a point of pride if you make it home with a broken bike or if you fix the chain, and it’s not a point of pride if you call your dad and say, can you come help me?
The dad feels proud, but he thinks, oh, my little girl can’t do anything yet. And the little girl thinks, oh, my dad—I can’t do anything yet.
So I think it changes a lot about the parent-child relationship, and it changes the child’s relationship to themselves because it’s not just themself. It’s themself plus this squad.
Sarah: I think it also reduces community. The example that you just gave—I could picture if that happened to one of my kids and they couldn’t figure out how to put the chain back on, they might stop somebody and say, can you help me with this? Or, you know, go into a garage and ask for a screwdriver from the mechanic to put their—you know—and just their interconnectedness that we all have with each other. I think if there’s just a direct line between parent and child, we lose out on that sense of community.
Lenore: That is so true. And it reminds me of a piece I haven’t run yet about a mom whose kid was sort of radicalized online and ended up in a locked ward for a little while, and then came out and gradually got better through doing music and through having friends.
And then he called her one day and he said, “Mom, the greatest thing—” Oh no, he came home and he said, “The greatest thing just happened to me.” And she’s like, what? Because she’s so grateful that he’s doing much, much better now. He’s in high school.
And he said, “I got a flat tire on my bike.”
She’s like, okay, that sounds just great. What do you mean?
And he had done exactly what you just said. That’s why it reminded me. He had found a bike shop and he’d gone in there and asked for help, and they fixed it. And he got back on his bike, and they didn’t even charge him because he is a nice young man and they were helping, and everybody felt great.
But for him it was so important to solve a problem, a real-world problem, on his own, that he regarded it as one of the highlights of his life to date.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: And his mom, in talking to me about the dire darkness that he’d been in and climbing back out to light, felt that this was one of the things that was crucial.
And I know that we keep racing to help our kids, and we’re doing this out of love and wanting to help them, to provide for them. And it’s really hard to see that stepping back is also a gift.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: Right? You’re giving kids this gift of trust and independence and time when they can figure stuff out on their own. And I think it would go a long way to solving a lot of the anxiety crisis and the depression crisis that we see in young people because, of course, you feel depressed if you don’t think you can handle anything, and you’re anxious if you think, what’s gonna happen? I can’t handle it.
So with us being there all the time, out of the goodness of our hearts, we’re really preventing some growth from happening.
Sarah: Yeah. And you make a big—in your TED Talk and other things you’ve written—you make a big connection to that stuff and childhood anxiety, which you’ve mentioned a few times, but maybe you could speak directly to how you think that this is related to anxiety, which has certainly spiked in the last few years.
Lenore: Well, it’s not just me noticing that anxiety is going up. I know that right now the focus is all on the phones, but the anxiety was going up for decades, long before there were phones. And so our colleague Peter Gray, who’s the psychology professor at Boston College, did a piece in the Journal of Pediatrics that came out now three years ago, and it just showed that over the decades—not just since COVID, not just since the iPhone—over the decades, as children’s independence and free play have waned, their anxiety and depression have been going up. And by the way, their creativity has also been going down.
And it’s not just correlation, it’s causation, for all the reasons that we’ve just been discussing. It’s when you figure out what you like to do and you make it happen, and it doesn’t work, and then you work harder and you make it happen now—we all know that the triumph of like, oh my God, the cake didn’t rise, and now I made it and it did. That’s what kids need day after day after day.
And instead they’re getting lessons. They’re getting school, and then after school they get more school that just happens to be school about lacrosse or school about chess.
And so the antidote is more independence. And there are two things I’d like to say about that.
One is that Let Grow has a free program for schools that’s really easy. It takes like 15 minutes twice a month, and it’s called the Let Grow Experience. If you go to letgrow.org, you click on it, there it is. And what it is, is it’s a homework assignment that teachers give their kids—or that a counselor can give the kids, whoever it is at the school—once a month that says, go home and do something new on your own with your parents’ permission, but without your parents.
And each month there’s a slightly different tinge to it, like do something with a friend, or do something for your family, or do something out in the community. But the whole idea is for the kid to see that the world is their oyster. I can go to the store. I can bake the cake. I can climb the tree. And it’s for the parents to sit there shaking the whole time, yet their kid is getting the milk or whatever.
And then have this burst of joy when their kid comes through the door. They brought the milk. Oh, and look, they also brought cookies. I didn’t say to get cookies. Okay, they brought cookies. And recognizing that their kid is growing up and competent and isn’t a baby anymore, is capable of being a real person.
And that’s the joy that we keep taking out of parents’ lives by saying, you have to be with them every single second. Imagine if they came through the door: oh my God, you missed the home run. They get to tell you, it was a home run. You should have seen it. Everybody was cheering, and I thought I wasn’t gonna make it, and I did.
You know, you don’t have to be there for every triumph of your kid’s life. They can tell you about it too. And you just feel this joy of recognizing there’s a person separate from you who’s going forth in the world and making it happen.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: So we really recommend the Let Grow Experience.
And the other thing that I wanted to say originally about the importance of independence and being able to go around your neighborhood and be part of it is that we are all concerned about phones. And so over the summer, when we did that study about parents who think that their kids are going to be kidnapped, we also had the Harris Poll do a study of kids age eight to 12. And one of the questions they asked was: if you could play with your friends in any way, or you could hang out with your friends in any way, which way would you prefer? Either just free play, hanging out in the neighborhood, no adults, whatever, or in an organized activity—it could be knitting or hockey or chess—or online. And that could be playing video games or Snapchatting or just texting each other, whatever. Which would you prefer?
And I realize that this is audio, so I’m going to show you a graph, but I will also explain it. There’s a giant part of the graph that’s what kids most prefer, and that is just hanging out, free play.
Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lenore: Second choice is organized activity, and trailing far behind is phones, screen time, phones.
And so we keep thinking that kids are addicted to their phones. But kids are addicted to each other, and when we don’t let them meet up one way or another in real life, they will go where they can. Okay, everybody’s at soccer or everybody’s online, but that’s not by choice.
We keep thinking that kids are online by desire, but it’s by default. And default is ours. Sorry, that’s the first time I tried out that pun.
Sarah: I like it.
Lenore: But I would say that the fault is ours—and not individually. Culturally, we’ve just decided that kids can’t be roaming around the neighborhood and can’t be trusted with some free time. We think that they’re gonna fall behind or they’re gonna be—and that’s why we began this discussion with, well, if you want your kids to be outside, what can you do? You gather together with other friends and you make a pact. You send them to the park. Or you ask your school to keep the school open for the Let Grow Play Club. And then there they are.
It’s just so fun to watch. You watch them and you just can’t believe how funny and creative and sometimes bored and sometimes mad, and then problem-solving, they are. Because the desire is to play, and they make it happen by hook or by crook.
Sarah: I have another idea for you that is—
Lenore: Oh, great. Let me hear.
Sarah: Bring back the teenage babysitter.
Lenore: Yes.
Sarah: When I was growing up, everyone—myself and all my friends and my sister—we all had summer babysitting jobs. Because I think part of the reason why parents overschedule their kids and they’re in camp all summer in these activities is because they need childcare. Right, right. And even—I didn’t need childcare in the summers when my kids were little because I was a stay-at-home mom, but there were no other kids for them to play with. So I would actually tell other parents, hey, don’t put your kid in camp this week, and I’ll take care of them.
But when I was a kid, the 14-, 15-, 16-year-olds would have their summer charges. And this could work for after school as well. And then we would get together with our friends at a park or the neighborhood pool or whatever who had the kids that they were babysitting for. And they would all play together.
And even if you don’t have your teenage babysitter get together with other kids that are being babysat, they still have—they can still play instead of being in the organized activities. And honestly, I work with enough parents who have teenagers who—the teenagers say there aren’t any jobs. There’s no way for me to make money. And they don’t have anything to do either.
And lots of teenagers love kids. My kids all loved babysitting. And that’s another thing too, though, is that a lot of parents are afraid to let their kids be babysat by teenagers because they think they’re not responsible, which is totally not true in most cases. So maybe in Let Grow you could talk about bringing back the teenage babysitters.
Lenore: First of all, I think you should write a blog post for us about that, but you should probably just get it in the Globe and Mail. I mean, that’s just a great idea because it gives teens a job.
And then I thought what you were gonna say is bring back the teen babysitter because unlike a professional nanny or a coach, who’s paid to really be assiduously watching every single second of them or teaching them a skill, a teen babysitter might be sitting on the couch eating Cheetos, which means that the kids do have to entertain themselves more.
Sarah: Yeah.
Lenore: Or a teenage babysitter might say, let’s go outside and we’ll play a game together, because they’re still of game-playing age, young enough they—
Sarah: Wanna play. Yeah.
Lenore: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that’s really great.
And one of the things Peter says about a Let Grow Play Club is that you don’t have to have a professional teacher at however many dollars an hour running that. You can hire a teen or a couple of teens from the local high school.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: And then, like you said, they’ve got a job, and then the kids have somebody who’s supervising them who’s not inclined to micromanage—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: Or teach.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: So that’s a great idea.
You know, I’ve spoken to parents who were teenage babysitters and would not hire a teenage babysitter now, and also wouldn’t even let their teen be a babysitter because of this wholesale undermining of our trust in what our kids are capable of.
And when you say like, they’re not responsible enough—well, of course, if they have no responsibility, how can they even prove that they’re responsible? Which is sort of why I’m worried about phones and tracking. It’s like, how do you prove that you’re responsible when somebody can always check to see? I mean—
Sarah: Yeah.
Lenore: That’s—how do you prove I didn’t go to the party? I said I wasn’t gonna go to the party. I wouldn’t go to the party. Maybe you didn’t go to the party because you knew I could track you. It’s like, well, how do I ever prove to you how capable I am and how mature and responsible I—it’s hard.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a great conversation. I love the work that you’re doing and that Let Grow is doing. And I love the title—in my mind I had a “let it” in there, and then today I was like, oh, it’s Let Grow, like let go.
Lenore: That’s exactly—that was our original name, was Let Go and Let Grow. And then our executive director’s husband said, why don’t you just shorten it? And so we did. And it’s a terrible name in some ways—people think it is “let it go” or “let it grow” or “let’s go,” and “let grow” is a weird phrase. But that is the whole point.
Sarah: I love it. I think it’s great, and I love the work that you’re doing. And I wish that—I hope this catches on.
It’s interesting. I got interviewed for a radio piece the other day, and there was an article, and the article was about trending searches. And whoever wrote it seemed to think that the trend and the trending searches were about parents looking for ways to get their kids off screens, of course. But all the trending searches were adult-organized activities.
Lenore: Yes.
Sarah: You know what I mean? And so I said to the radio person, I was like, you know, these are all great, and maybe these are a really wonderful bridge from screens to being outside or doing creative play or whatever. But really, adults just need to get out of kids’ way. And that’s the key here, is that we need to get out of kids’ way and just let them do what they’re naturally predisposed to do.
Lenore: And also it gives us back our lives.
I mean, speaking of trends, the birthrate is plummeting and parents are stressed and some giant percent say they’re just barely getting through every day. And of course that’s the case.
I was just—there was somebody on, I don’t know, Twitter or Instagram today saying, like, I can’t believe it. My kids are saying, “Where’s my Lego?” and “What can I eat?” and “What can I do?” And I’m like, those are all questions that could be answered by a kid and not by you.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Lenore: And then that would get them more engaged in life, and that would give you time to read a book or run away from home, which sounds like it’d be great for everyone.
The whole point of my TED Talk was “I did it myself” is so important for kids, and it gives parents back their world too. Not everything has to be you watching them do something that you can see.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s really the answer to making intensive parenting less intensive.
And honestly, for me, a lot of the reason why my kids had so much of this unsupervised time was because I’m a bit lazy. Like, I remember this one time—I was thinking about this in terms of, like, the kids sometimes they’ll make mistakes and they won’t get it exactly right. I was bringing my daughter and her friend somewhere—they were probably eight—after dance class, I think I’d picked them up, and they were hungry, so I said, let’s get you each a piece of pizza.
But living in a city, it’s hard to find a place to park to go into the pizza place. So I said, I’ll give you some money. I’m going to pull over here in the no-parking area, and you two go in and get yourself some pizza. And I’m sitting out there like, this is taking an awfully long time.
And they came back with a medium pizza, like a whole pizza.
Lenore: Oh, that’s so funny. Wow.
Sarah: And they had somehow, instead of ordering two slices, somehow they had ordered a whole pizza. And they were a little surprised too. But I just laughed and I thought, how cool that they were doing this thing themselves and it didn’t go quite right, but also it was an experience, and they learned from it.
Lenore: And a memory. A memory. What if instead you’d parked and run in and brought them two slices of pizza and they ate them in the back of the car while you drove home? That would be a day that you would never remember for the rest of your life. And instead, it’s the day that everybody came home with this giant pizza.
Sarah: It was really funny. But that was purely because I was trying to cut some corners myself. I wasn’t thinking, gee, let’s let them experience going into a store on their own.
Lenore: Right, right, right. I mean, that’s the beauty of being a human. Not every—you know, you’re not a servant. And everybody’s better off if—
My friend once explained this to me, and then, of course, I’ve taken it as my own mantra as if I came up with it, but Chris Byrne told me that in the olden days there were three worlds, right? There’s the kid world, which is the riding their bikes and eating candy and chasing squirrels, whatever. And then there’s the adult world, which is boring. I remembered from when my parents were at the table, it’s like they’re discussing politics, they’re discussing who’s having an operation. It felt like you get to 50 and all it is is operations and politics. And then there’s family world when you are together, you know, at family dinner or on a vacation or church or synagogue or whatever.
But now we mash them all together. And really, everybody likes it more when the kids—it’s like the kid table is more fun than the kids being at the adult table at Thanksgiving, right? So you separate them. It’s not that they’re never gonna spend time with grandma, it’s that they’re joking and becoming dearly close with their cousins, and you’re finding out who’s having an operation. So everybody wins.
Sarah: That’s right. That’s right.
Where’s—the two more quick questions before I let you go. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about what you do? And we’ll put any links you mentioned in the show notes.
Lenore: Great. So go to letgrow.org. And if you’re a school or at a school, there’s a section for schools, and you can get our free programs there. If you’re a parent, we have the same programs just for home use, and those are all free. Everything’s free. So you could click on the parent thing if you want to change the law where you live so that you’re—you know what, don’t even go into the law. So just press schools or parents. And then we’re all over all the different social media.
Sarah: Wonderful. Okay. The last question is the question I ask all my guests, which is: if you could go back in time with a time machine, what advice would you give your younger parent self?
Lenore: Oh, my younger parent self. I think I gave myself the advice, which was let your son ride the subway alone, because that was the inciting incident that started Free-Range Kids, is that I let my nine-year-old ride the subway alone, and I wrote a newspaper column about it.
What I didn’t know then is that it would end up being a movement and my life’s work. But I would say, do it that weekend, because like a week later he was 10 and nobody would care. So hurry up. That’s great. You got five days left, Lenore. Get him on the subway.
Sarah: Thank you for doing that, because it’s been—it’s really an important countercultural voice that you have and that your organization has.
Lenore: Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. And I love the rat story, and I’m taking it as my own.
Sarah: Oh, good. Please do.
Lenore: Thanks!
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