Work For Humans

James Seechurn spent over a decade building compensation programs on a simple premise: design the incentive right, and you'll get the behavior you want. But his first clue that this was wrong came from watching it fail on him. As a young accountant on billable hours, slowing down to actually understand something cost him money. He kept redesigning bonus plans for clients anyway, until the pattern became impossible to ignore: paid people don't do better work, they just do whatever gets measured. 

In this episode, Dart and James explore what we're actually buying when we pay someone, why pay-for-performance is really a form of control, and the false stories we tell ourselves about why people work.
James Seechurn is an independent rewards advisor and the author of What Pay Costs, Nothing Left to Take Away, and Close the Gap. 
In this episode, Dart and James discuss:
- What you're really buying when you pay someone
- The cobra bounty that backfired
- Why performance reviews grade the wrong person
- Turning billable hours into a currency
- Why quality is mostly the system, not the person
- The company that let workers vote out their bosses
- Why Semco sold itself back to its own people
- Why pay-for-performance is really about control
- Why companies rarely last past 15 years
- And other topics…

James A. Seechurn is an independent rewards advisor with 20 years of experience in sales compensation and broad-based pay, including a decade at Aon's Rewards Solutions practice. A Fellow Chartered Accountant, he is the author of What Pay Costs, Nothing Left to Take Away, and Close the Gap. He hosts the Disengaged podcast.

Resources Mentioned:
James's Book, What Pay Costs: The Science of Pay, Incentives, Bonuses, Salaries, Equity Compensation, Motivation, and Performance:https://www.amazon.com/What-Pay-Costs-Compensation-Performance/dp/B0FV3VPXWW
James's Podcast, Disengaged: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/disengaged/id1874104719 
Maverick: The Success Story Behind the World's Most Unusual Workplace, by Ricardo Semler: https://www.amazon.com/Maverick-Success-Behind-Unusual-Workplace/dp/0446516961
Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them, by Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini: https://www.amazon.com/Humanocracy-Creating-Organizations-Amazing-People/dp/1633696022
Barry Schwartz on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tragic-state-of-work-in-america-barry-schwartz/id1612743401?i=1000577078192
Geoffrey West on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-problem-with-scale-what-growing-too-big-does-to/id1612743401?i=1000749058561
Gary Hamel on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/bureaucracy-is-killing-our-organizations-gary-hamel/id1612743401?i=1000577070311

Connect with James:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-seechurn/
Website: https://www.jamesseechurn.com/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

In robotic surgery, a device good enough to let the surgeon operate alone makes the resident, the future expert, optional. Matt Beane saw this pattern everywhere technology gets smart enough to make the apprentice unnecessary. Dart calls this one of the episodes he keeps returning to, for how clearly Matt names one of AI's biggest threats to how we learn. In this revisited episode, Dart and Matt explore how technology reshapes workplace learning, whether tech shapes us or we shape it, and the difference between knowing something and being able to do it.

Matt Beane is an associate professor at UC Santa Barbara and the CEO and cofounder of SkillBench. He is the author of The Skill Code, and his TED talk on the subject has nearly two million views.
In this episode, Dart and Matt discuss:
- How tech reshapes workplace learning
- What technology management programs actually study
- Does tech shape us, or do we shape it?
- Using tech to build skill at scale
- Knowledge vs skill: what's the difference?
- Why skill development breaks down in tech-heavy jobs
- Using positive deviance to grow at work
- How human capital drives productivity
- And other topics…

Matt Beane is an associate professor in the Technology Management Program at UC Santa Barbara and the CEO and cofounder of SkillBench, a company building tools to help organizations develop skills alongside AI. He is a Digital Fellow with Stanford's Digital Economy Lab and MIT's Initiative on the Digital Economy.

He holds a PhD and a master's in management research from MIT's Sloan School of Management. His research on robotic surgery has appeared in Administrative Science Quarterly, Harvard Business Review, and Organization Science. And his TED talk on the subject has nearly two million views. He is the author of The Skill Code: How to Save Human Ability in an Age of Intelligent Machines.

Resources Mentioned:
Matt's Book, The Skill Code: How to Save Human Ability in an Age of Intelligent Machines: https://www.amazon.com/Skill-Code-Human-Ability-Intelligent/dp/0063265956
How Buildings Learn, by Stewart Brand: https://www.amazon.com/How-Buildings-Learn-Happens-Theyre/dp/0140139966
Connect with Matt:
Website: https://www.mattbeane.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-beane-3947271/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Under John Chambers, Cisco grew from $70 million to $47 billion, completed 180 acquisitions, and became the most valuable company in the world. He built the company on one idea: employees aren't employees, they're family. Then the dot-com crash hit, and John had to lay off 7,854 people, almost all of whom he'd hired himself. He calls it his worst year as a leader. In this episode, Dart and John explore why John calls employees family, how John builds a leadership team, and why playbooks create speed instead of bureaucracy.

John Chambers led Cisco as CEO from 1995 to 2015 and as Executive Chairman until 2017, and now holds the title of Chairman Emeritus. He is also the author of Connecting the Dots.

In this episode, Dart and John discuss:
- What are companies for?
- Why John calls his employees family
- How Cisco kept attrition under 5% for 25 years
- Competing hard without turning ruthless
- The three questions Cisco asked before every acquisition
- Why John hates the word hierarchy
- Laying off 7,854 people he'd helped hire
- Why playbooks create speed, not bureaucracy
- The little girl who changed how John talks about dyslexia
- And other topics…

John Chambers is the founder and CEO of JC2 Ventures, which he launched in 2018 to invest in and mentor startups navigating major market transitions. He joined Cisco in 1991 as Senior Vice President of Worldwide Sales and Operations, served as President and CEO from 1995 to 2015, and as Executive Chairman until 2017, helping grow the company from $70 million to $47 billion in revenue through 180 acquisitions. He now holds the title of Chairman Emeritus at Cisco. He is the author of Connecting the Dots: Lessons for Leadership in a Startup World and the host of the podcast Chambers Talks.

Resources Mentioned:
John's Book, Connecting the Dots: Lessons for Leadership in a Startup World: https://www.amazon.com/Connecting-Dots-Lessons-Leadership-Startup/dp/031648654X
John's Podcast, Chambers Talks: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chambers-talks-a-podcast-series-with-john-chambers/id1542075631

Connect with John:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnchambersjc/
JC2 Ventures: https://www.jc2ventures.com/
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Jeffrey Pfeffer has spent decades showing that people-first companies outperform, and just as long watching that evidence lose to habit. His answer is blunt: whether you're cautious about power or thirsty for it, there's no denying its role in the workplace, and ideas without power are just ideas. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff explore the purpose of power, the knowing-doing gap, and how to build profits by putting people first.

Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He is the author of several books, including The Human Equation, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power.

In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss:
- Why most of us are ambivalent about power
- Why a big title doesn't make you powerful
- Why ideas alone don't change anything
- The seven rules, and which one matters most
- Why we never pick the leaders we say we want
- Why evidence keeps losing to habit
- Getting ideas past people who can ignore you
- Why HR keeps losing the power game
- Can you have power and put people first?
- And other topics…
Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He previously taught at the University of Illinois and the University of California, Berkeley, and has been a visiting professor at Harvard Business School, London Business School, Singapore Management University, and IESE. He is the author or co-author of several books, including The Human Equation, The Knowing-Doing Gap, Leadership BS, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power. His work has been cited more than 200,000 times. He hosts the Pfeffer on Power podcast and has taught a MasterClass since 2025.

Resources Mentioned:
Jeff's Books,
7 Rules of Power: https://www.amazon.com/7-Rules-Power-Pfeffer-Jeffrey/dp/1800751281
The Human Equation: Building Profits by Putting People First: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Equation-Building-Profits-Putting/dp/0875848419
Dying for a Paycheck: How Modern Management Harms Employee Health and Company Performance, and What We Can Do About It: https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Paycheck-Management-Employee-Performance/dp/0062800922
Leadership BS: Fixing Workplaces and Careers One Truth at a Time: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers/dp/0062383167
The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action (with Robert Sutton): https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/B00DEK8PAA
Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex among Apes, by Frans de Waal: https://www.amazon.com/Chimpanzee-Politics-Power-among-Apes/dp/0801886562
Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, by Robert B. Cialdini: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X

Connect with Jeff:
Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
Pfeffer on Power podcast: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/pfeffer-on-power/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-pfeffer-57a01b6
X: https://x.com/JeffreyPfeffer
Stanford GSB: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/faculty/jeffrey-pfeffer
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Parents come to Alanna Beebe's classes hoping to change their kid. But by the second week, most of them realize the person who needs to change is them. Soon after, they notice the same tools working on their boss, colleagues, and staff. None of this surprises Alanna though. Her work rests on Alfred Adler's idea that every human is striving for belonging and significance, and that misbehavior, in a child or an adult, is a discouraged attempt to get there. In this episode, Dart and Alanna explore where agency comes from, why encouragement is not the same as praise, and what parenting can teach us about designing better workplaces.

Alanna Beebe is the founder and Managing Director of Sproutable, which helps parents and teachers grow remarkable kids through Positive Discipline.

In this episode, Dart and Alanna discuss:
- Why discipline was never meant to be punishment
- What Adler believed that Freud didn't
- What a misbehaving kid is really asking for
- Why fixing your kids means changing yourself
- Kind and firm at the same time
- Where agency comes from, and who takes it away
- Why companies extract instead of grow
- What shared power looks like in practice
- Why money doesn't build motivation
- Why encouragement beats praise
- And other topics…

Alanna Beebe is the founder and Managing Director of Sproutable, a Seattle-based education company that has helped parents, teachers, and caregivers raise socially and emotionally skilled kids since 2016 through coaching, classes, and video content grounded in Positive Discipline and Adlerian psychology. In 2025, she founded Audacious Leadership, offering executive, life, and co-parenting coaching. She is a certified Positive Discipline Educator, Empowering People in the Workplace Educator, and Co-Active Practitioner. Before Sproutable, she spent more than 15 years in public health and early learning communications.

Resources Mentioned:
Positive Discipline, by Jane Nelsen: https://www.amazon.com/Positive-Discipline-Jane-Nelsen/dp/0345348567
Trust Factor: The Science of Creating High-Performance Companies, by Paul J. Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Trust-Factor-Creating-High-Performance-Companies/dp/0814437664
Peter Liljedahl on Work for Humans: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-classrooms-how-to-design-environments-that/id1612743401?i=1000631582031

Connect with Alanna:
Sproutable: https://www.besproutable.com
Audacious Leadership: https://www.audacious-leadership.com 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alanna-beebe-5027967
Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.