IndoctriNation

In this episode, Rachel Bernstein welcomes back Andrew Jasko, a religious trauma and cult specialist, for a thought-provoking discussion on the potential pitfalls of the Law of Attraction, also known as manifestation. Andrew delves into the historical roots of this philosophy, tracing its connections to the New Thought Church movement, and examines how its teachings can lead to psychological harm and victim-blaming.
As they explore the nuances of spirituality and personal responsibility, Rachel and Andrew address the dangers of magical thinking and the misconceptions surrounding the idea that one's thoughts alone can shape reality. They discuss the implications of this belief on mental health, including the pressure it creates for individuals to take sole responsibility for their circumstances, often leading to denial and shame when things go wrong.
Through this engaging conversation, listeners will gain insight into the complexities of manifestation, the importance of critical thinking, and the necessity of acknowledging all emotions—both positive and negative. Andrew emphasizes the value of integrating various aspects of our experience to foster genuine healing and empowerment, rather than succumbing to the oversimplifications of the Law of Attraction.
Andrew’s Links:
Website: https://lifeafterdogma.org/
Connect with us on social media: 
⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠
Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 
https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠
Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:
https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION
Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:
⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠
Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 
https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm
Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4
Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:
https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign
Journal App: 
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html
Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html
IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:
⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel welcomes back Elise Heerde, a mental health practitioner and co-director of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia. Together, they delve into the complexities of religious trauma, cult recovery, and the ethical considerations surrounding exit counseling. Elise shares her journey and insights gained from her work with survivors, emphasizing the importance of agency and choice during the recovery process.
Elise discusses the evolution of terminology in the field, moving from 'deprogramming' to 'exit counseling,' and the implications of these terms on the approach to helping individuals leave high-control groups. They explore the nuanced dynamics involved in supporting both survivors and their families, highlighting the need for long-term scaffolding and community support to facilitate healing. The conversation also touches on the potential pitfalls of media portrayals of cults and the importance of trauma-informed practices when sharing survivor stories.
Join Rachel and Elise as they navigate these vital topics, providing valuable insights for practitioners and families alike, while advocating for a compassionate and ethical approach to recovery.
Elise’s Links
Website: https://www.eliseheerde.com/
Religious Trauma Collective: https://religioustraumaandcults.com/
Connect with us on social media: 
⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠
Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 
https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠
Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:
https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION
Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:
⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠
Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 
https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm
Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4
Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:
https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign
Journal App: 
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html
Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html
IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:
⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon-exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 
In this Patreon bonus episode, Rachel Bernstein discusses how difficult it can be to be the lone dissenting voice when others admire a narcissistic partner or cult leader. She describes serving on a jury involving an unhoused African American man accused of a store break-in based on grainy security footage, where other jurors argued the evidence was “close enough” and pushed for a quick unanimous verdict to avoid discomfort. When Rachel insisted there wasn’t enough evidence, they faced shunning and personal attacks, which strengthened their resolve. The experience is used to illustrate scapegoating, social pressure, and how crucial it is for friends and family to reassure isolated people in controlling or cultic situations that they’re not alone and safe to change their minds. 

Connect with us on social media: 
⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠
Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 
https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠
Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:
https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION
Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:
⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠
Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 
https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm
Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4
Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:
https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign
Journal App: 
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html
Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html
IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:
⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel Bernstein speaks with Melissa Duge Spiers, who talks about growing up inside the Seventh-day Adventist Church — and the hidden cost of its end-times, high-control culture. Her book, ‘Holy Disobedience: Sex, Sin, and Secrets in the Biggest Church No One Knows,’ traces Adventism's roots back to the 1840s Millerite movement and the visions of prophet Ellen White, whose experiences Spiers connects to traumatic brain injury and temporal lobe epilepsy.
Melissa unpacks how information control, purity culture, and anti-LGBTQ teachings shaped her patriarchal, fear-based upbringing, and how those same dynamics played out in the church's boarding academies. She shares what it took to leave at 18, the devastating discovery that followed about her own father, and how that truth cracked open a much deeper reckoning with everything she'd been taught. This conversation covers religious trauma, institutional betrayal, and how social media is helping ex-Adventists find each other and speak out.

Melissa’s Links

Book: https://www.lakedrivebooks.com/books/holy-disobedience/
Substack: https://melissadugespiers.substack.com/about
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.glory.whole/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theglorywhole

Connect with us on social media: 
⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠
Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 
https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠
Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:
https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION
Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:
⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠
Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 
https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm
Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4
Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:
https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign
Journal App: 
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html
Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html
IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:
⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of IndoctriNation, Rachel Bernstein, LMFT, MSEd, welcomes back Andrew Jasko, psychotherapist and comparative religion scholar, for a deep and honest conversation about growing up inside evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity — and the long road to recovery from religious trauma.
Andrew grew up as a minister's son, immersed in a world of intense devotion, purity culture, missionary ambitions, and fear of eternal punishment. What he didn't yet have language for were the lasting psychological effects: shame, anxiety, religious OCD, sexual repression, thought policing, and hell trauma. Through therapy, he came to understand these not as personal failings, but as predictable outcomes of a high-control, fear-based system — one that functions much like narcissistic abuse.
Rachel and Andrew also explore the broader cultural forces that sustain spiritual abuse, including biblical mistranslations, harmful theological ideologies, and evangelism as a guilt-driven form of religious imperialism. Their conversation closes on the themes at the heart of cult recovery: reclaiming agency, rebuilding self-trust, learning to set boundaries, and finding wholeness within lived experience.

Andrew’s Links
Website: https://lifeafterdogma.org/

Connect with us on social media: 
⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠
Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 
https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠
Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:
https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION
Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:
⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠
Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 
https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm
Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4
Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:
https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign
Journal App: 
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html
Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:
https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html
IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:
⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands