Dharma Lab

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What happens to our drive when we stop looking to the next achievement for fulfillment?
In our latest AMA, Cortland Dahl explores topics such as how to widen awareness when the mind feels contracted, why the motivation behind a practice matters, and how compassion can become the energy behind an engaged, creative life. Kim brought your questions, and Cort joined us for the hour while Richie was traveling.
What’s inside
* Three ways to widen the aperture of awareness: the body, the breath, and the mind
* Shamatha and loving-kindness: why the same technique can serve different purposes
* Meditation, autism, and ADHD: promising research, unanswered questions, and strengths worth recognizing
* Career ambition and the shift to a different source of motivation
* What we know—and still don’t know—about consciousness
* A 2-minute guided practice led by Cort
* Practicing with death, impermanence, and the moments before sleep
The full hour mapped below, plus the flashcards and the recording for paid members.
Companion Flashcards At Bottom
You don’t have to turn ambition off
An anonymous listener asked how to balance “the false promise of desire” with career ambition. If Buddhism teaches being, are we supposed to stop progressing and find contentment in the job we already have?
Cort looked to the people who have gone deepest into the practice of being. The teachers he knows are productive, creative, and engaged. Learning to be has not left them sitting on the couch.
We are not losing the energy and drive in our life. What we’re doing is we’re changing the energy source.—Cortland Dahl
He described the familiar mixture that powers a career: some care and purpose, some competition, some hope that success or status will finally make us feel fulfilled. Practice can change that mixture. We still need to make a living, and we can still want to accomplish things. But caring for our family, our community, and the wider world can become the driving force.
There can be an awkward stretch in between. The old motivation has weakened before the new one feels fully available.
It’s almost as though they’ve unplugged from the old energy source, but they’re just beginning to find the light socket for the new one.—Cortland Dahl
Cort suggested learning about people who have navigated that transition. Their lives can help us recognize what a different motivation looks like in action. The energy may carry us further along our current path, or it may lead somewhere else.
The moment before you start meditating
Mary Beth asked what we are actually doing when we “widen the aperture,” and whether there are different ways to practice it.
Cort offered three entry points. With the eyes, let attention include the edges of the visual field. With the breath, notice the release that comes with an exhale. With the mind, sit as though you are about to meditate, but haven’t started yet.
You are a little more alert because you are getting ready. But you haven’t begun following the breath or running a technique. See whether you can remain in that small space of wakeful presence.
So if that feels like nothing’s happening, that’s perfect.—Cortland Dahl
Even the thought “Am I doing it?” can show up. The invitation is to become familiar with being, without turning it into another task to perform correctly.
Cort recommended short doses: five or ten seconds, then return to whatever you were doing. These little moments can happen during meditation or in the middle of the day. With repetition, the opening becomes more familiar.
2-MINUTE PRACTICE LED BY CORT
In the recording, 01:25–03:04
2-minute practice: Wherever you are, if you’re sitting still, let your eyes close or remain gently open. Take a few slow, deep breaths and feel the breath moving in and out of your body. Allow the mind and body to settle. Then bring a little kindness and compassion into the moment. In words or images that resonate with you, form an intention that whatever good comes from this time might ripple outward—benefiting your own life, the people around you, and the wider world. Rest with that motivation for a few breaths.
The full hour, mapped
Read the gist below, then drop into the recording at any timestamp.
01:25 — Begin with a compassionate motivation. Cort leads the opening micro-practice: settle with the breath, then imagine the good from this time rippling outward. He uses this pause before meetings and other activities throughout the day.
03:49 — Three ways to widen the aperture. Mary Beth’s question opens a practical exploration of expansive awareness. Cort offers entry points through peripheral vision, the release of an exhale, and the shift from doing to being.
09:15 — Before the doing starts. Imagine you are about to meditate, but haven’t begun. Notice the alertness already there. Nothing special needs to happen; try a few seconds, then return to your day.
12:07 — Shamatha and loving-kindness. Maya asks whether these practices cultivate different capacities. Cort explains how loving-kindness can support absorptive concentration in some traditions, while others emphasize bringing kindness into everyday life. The motivation and purpose matter alongside the technique.
19:08 — Meditation, autism, and ADHD. Brenda asks about different neurotypes and long-term practitioners. Cort describes the research as promising but preliminary, with short training periods and limited longer-term evidence.
21:06 — Compared with what? Why a waitlist and an active comparison group answer different research questions. Cort explains why an intervention’s failure to outperform another treatment should not automatically be read as “nothing happened.”
25:28 — Strengths deserve attention, too. Cort asks what research might discover by examining how practice supports neurodivergent strengths. After a listener flags his earlier language, he acknowledges the correction and returns to the strengths-focused spirit of his answer.
27:46 — Awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. Rachel asks how these capacities relate to nervous system practices. Cort suggests thinking of them as possible ingredients across approaches, while emphasizing that he would need to know the specific method to say more.
30:38 — Career ambition and a different energy source. Can we practice contentment and still want to progress? Cort explores the shift from pursuing fulfillment through success to working from compassion, care, and purpose—and the uncertain transition between them.
37:24 — Does explaining the brain explain the mind? Dave’s question, prompted by Douglas Hofstadter’s I Am a Strange Loop, leads into competing views of mind and matter. Cort argues for humility and openness about unresolved questions of consciousness.
44:28 — How shall I live, knowing I will die? Gwen asks about daily practice with mortality. Cort pairs appreciation for the opportunity of being alive with the recognition that we do not know how long it will last. “Today is the day to be kind.”
49:42 — The in-between states. Cort introduces the Tibetan concept of bardos, then describes how observing the transition into sleep and practicing lucid dreaming fit into that tradition’s preparation for death.
55:32 — Can someone near death sense our care? Sherry’s question brings a careful answer: Cort says he does not know scientifically. He distinguishes possible awareness without communication from traditional beliefs and family anecdotes about offering love and reassurance.
59:19 — A community built through questions. Cort closes with gratitude for the dialogue, the people joining each month, and the generosity that makes these gatherings possible.
Upcoming Events:
* Quiet the Restless Mind — November: A gifted online week from Dharma Lab and ServiceSpace, November 15–21, exploring how to meet everyday stress, distraction, and overwhelm with greater clarity and ease. Bringing together ancient wisdom and modern neuroscience, the week features leading contemplatives and researchers including Robert Sapolsky, Laurie Santos, Mingyur Rinpoche, Judson Brewer, Sharon Salzberg, Martin Picard, Cortland Dahl, and Richard Davidson.
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Episode Companion Flashcards:

In this episode of Dharma Lab, Dr. Cortland Dahl and Dr. Richie Davidson explore how exercising your body can also become a way to train your mind. We asked Richie why exercise supports neuroplasticity, and why a more changeable brain isn’t necessarily a happier one. We also discuss what makes a workout meditation, and share how we bring these practices into our own biking, walking, and yoga routines.
Enjoy!
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Episode Companion Flashcards:
Upcoming Events:
* From Doing to Being: Effortless Meditation & the Lost Art of Doing Less with Dr. Cortland Dahl and Kasumi Kato, October 9–11 at Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, NY. This is an independent Omega Institute program and is not affiliated with Dharma Lab. Learn more / register
* Quiet the Restless Mind — November: A gifted online week from Dharma Lab and ServiceSpace, November 15–21, exploring how to meet everyday stress, distraction, and overwhelm with greater clarity and ease. Bringing together ancient wisdom and modern neuroscience, the week features leading contemplatives and researchers including Robert Sapolsky, Laurie Santos, Mingyur Rinpoche, Judson Brewer, Sharon Salzberg, Martin Picard, Cortland Dahl, and Richard Davidson.
Learn more / register
In This Episode:
00:00 Intro - Is your workout really meditation?01:15 Training body and mind together03:05 Is exercise really meditation?07:51 Why intention matters11:29 Flow versus meditation13:19 Exercise and neuroplasticity16:19 Should you meditate during or after exercise?20:25 Can movement make meditation easier?24:14 How Richie practices while cycling27:26 Cort’s practice: Yoga, jogging, and attention32:12 Interval training for the mind33:32 What the research tells us so far
Written transcript for those who prefer to read:
00:00 Intro - Is your workout really meditation?
Richie: What I often hear when I give public talks, people often raise their hand and say, my jog is my meditation, or my bicycle ride is my meditation. And my response to that is always, well, maybe, but not necessarily.
Cort: It’s not just that your mind was a little more clear or a little more peaceful while you were exercising. In fact, actually that I would say is not at all the deciding point about whether it would or would not be meditation, but rather it’s that you’re doing something very intentional with your mind. You’re training your mind very consciously and very intentionally. So the promise of this all is that you basically can train your mind at the exact same time you’re exercising your body. And not only do you get the benefits of each of those individually, there’s at least the potential that there’s a synergistic benefit that’s greater than the sum of the parts.
01:15 Training body and mind together
Cort: Welcome everyone. I am Cortland Dahl, and I’m here with my dear friend and Dharma brother, Dr. Richard Davidson, who of course we all call Richie, one of the most eminent and respected neuroscientists on the planet. And today we’re going to discuss how we can train our minds in the same way that we train our bodies, and especially that we can do this at the same time. So there’s some really interesting science here, but before we get there, I just want to share my own personal experience, which is
I’ve been meditating for more than 30, well, more than well over three decades, probably about 35 years or so. And of course, sitting meditation is super important for me. But I noticed at a certain point that bringing meditation into my exercise routine actually has been incredibly powerful. And in some respects, I feel like some of the best meditations I have are when I’m jogging, for example. In the early days, I did yoga every day. I was
Kind of very diligently had a yoga routine up until my son was born, and that kind of fell by the wayside. But I was really doing, I was really meditating as part of my exercise routine. And it wasn’t necessarily a replacement for my formal practice, but it was really, really powerful. And I could tell in my own experience that there was some synergy between the physical movement and pairing that up with doing a very intentional training of the mind. So this is a very exciting area of science. I know we’re both passionate about this as one of the frontiers of kind of modern science in this area. But Richie, why don’t why don’t I just turn it over to you to share whether your your kind of opening thoughts or your own experience, and then we can kind of go back and forth both to share a little bit about the scientific promise of this, but also how we actually do it and how we personally do it in our own lives.
03:05 Is exercise really meditation?
Richie: Yeah. So thank you, Cort, and it’s great to be here together talking about this on this beautiful Sunday morning in Madison. so yeah and I’ve been meditating pretty much every single day for more than fifty years.
And I too have been really interested in exploring the relationship between meditation and physical exercise. and before we talk about the science, I think there’s a bunch of th other things to share, some of which just are personal and and
To begin with, I too have figured out ways of combining them for me that are really important and personally very meaningful. But before we get to that, I I wanna begin with what I often hear when I give public talks. Sometimes when we give public talks together, people often raise their hand and say, My jog is my meditation or my bicycle ride is my meditation. and my response to that is always, well, maybe, but not necessarily. and so I think it’s really important to make that very clear. And when we talk about meditation, we’re really talking about the intentional use of our mind in ways that promote human flourishing and if you go into exercise and your mind is all over the place and you’re not intentionally deploying your mind in that way then maybe it’s not so much that your exercise is your meditation and so i think that some people slip into that in a in a bit too cavalier a way. And so one of my aspirations is that in the next few minutes together we really can explore that and we can explore when your exercise might be reasonably thought of as your meditation and when it might not be. And so let me just share something personal that I do regularly. I’m a very avid bicycle rider, and particularly in the beautiful warm weather, I ride outside. And before I ride, I do something that I do before I meditate in the same kind of way, which is I and I do this, I really don’t take any extra time. So, you know, I ride a road bike and it requires you know putting on clothes and putting on special bicycle shoes. So there’s a lot of opportunity to reflect as I’m just engaging in the preparation activities for my bike ride. And during those periods I simply reflect on how riding my bike is beneficial to my health.
But it’s not just beneficial for me, but being healthy and having vitality is beneficial for all of those I interact with, for my work, for my for what I do in the world. and it takes on a a kind of
Sense of altruism or pro-sociality, that I’m doing it not just for myself. And what happens then is I mostly I ride alone. Maybe one day a week I ride with others, but the other times I ride alone. And particularly when I’m riding alone, I find that that reflection recycles spontaneously as I ride. And I come back to it many times.
And it just really energizes me, like I’m riding for humanity. I mean, it sounds a little corny, but you know, I do genuinely reflect on that as I’m riding And although I don’t have any evidence to suggest that it’s beneficial, it feels beneficial to me. and first of all, it motivates me to engage in these activities, which I think is.
good thing. know, I’m convinced that it does have other benefits as well, which we can explore later and may even change the biological effects of the exercise when it’s done in that kind of way. And so this is just one example of many of how these can be combined.
07:51 Why intention matters
Cort: Yeah, so so much to pick up on what you just said. we definitely, and maybe at the end of this, we can talk a little bit more about personally how we do this in our practice. So you gave one a great example of how you’ve linked these two. I should just say from the outset also that that Richie is kind of a legend in Madison for for his bike riding. I know people who ride with you, Richie, and pretty much everybody talk like can’t keep up with you. Like so so there’s a clearly
Whatever’s going on in your mind is you know, paired up with some very rigorous physical training. So it’s not as though you need to be I mean, you can do it while you’re in nice leisurely walk in the in the park, but you can do it with very, very intense exercise. In fact, I think for me as well, oftentimes it’s when it’s it’s most interesting actually, when you’re doing something quite vigorous and intense. But in any case, you can do it with any form of movement or exercise.
But one thing I wanted to pick up on goes back to this question that you raised and that we often get asked about this idea of exercise, you know, the the the person who says jogging is my meditation, or similarly people say, being out in nature is my meditation. And you and I, of course, have fielded this question so many times and responded so many times, as you said, together and and alone. But what you just said, I think l sheds some light on that, because in your case, you can see.
Perfectly that one of the key ingredients is intention. It’s not just that your mind was a little more clear or a little more peaceful while you were exercising. In fact, actually, that that I would say is not at all the deciding point about whether it would or would not be meditation, but rather it’s that you’re doing something very intentional with your mind, you’re training your mind.
very consciously and very intentionally. And in this respect, I would say it’s actually very similar to physical exercise. So for example, if I’m doing chores in my house, I’m going up and down my stairs, I’m, you know, moving around. You know, you could say that I’m doing a lot of the movements that are probably very good for my physical health, but I wouldn’t necessarily think of it that way. I wouldn’t, I mean, you’re certainly doing things that are beneficial for health, but
I wouldn’t in a normal day think, I did my exercise routine because I did chores for half an hour. In some respects, even though we rarely consciously think of it, exercise similarly needs intention. It’s something that we’re doing consciously, and we’re not just doing it for no reason, we’re doing it because we think it’s going to benefit our physical health. So it’s it’s really about flourishing and well-being, but in terms of our physical health. So again, it’s those two things. You’re doing it intentionally.
And you’re doing something with a clear outcome in mind related to your own well-being or physical health with meditation, it’s the same thing, except you’re just training your mind. And the outcome is mental well-being and emotional well-being and flourishing. And, you know, again, we might not think of this, but those two things together, it seems to me, are what creates, you know, a formal meditative practice versus you just felt better or you felt different while you’re doing it. So, anyways, you I felt like what you just shared.
just captures that perfectly. It was it was conscious and intentional and it’s very clearly linked to something that’s meaningful to you and that’s tied to your own vision for yourself and even of humanity of what it means to flourish. Would would you agree with that?
11:29 Flow versus meditation
Richie: Yeah, totally, totally. I think that yeah, and and when many people I think say that jogging is my meditation, you know, they have a flow experience during jogging, where they’re really merged with the activity in which they’re engaged, they’re totally present, but their mind is really not being deployed intentionally. it’s more of a passive kind of process and
You know, we’ve talked about this in another episode of Dharma Lab, but their flow can occur with or without meta awareness. and in a paper that
We wrote together number of years ago, we coined a term called experiential fusion, which is the kind of flow that occurs without meta-awareness, where you’re just you’re absorbed in an activity. and that is not necessarily meditation.
Cort: Yeah, absolutely. So we can get more into this, I think, especially with our own experience. Maybe we could talk a little bit about why you would want to do this. I mean, clearly we both have done this and have just naturally found it beneficial. But maybe we can tackle this from a a few different angles. I think there’s some interesting biological angles, even looking at things like neuroplasticity potentially, other biological capacities. But what do you think the potential benefits are?
relative to just doing one or the other independently, or just one or the other and not doing the other, like you just exercise and don’t meditate, or you just meditate and don’t exercise. What would you say? Do we
Richie: Mm-hmm.
Cort: is there a scientific case to be made for why you would do this?
13:19 Exercise and neuroplasticity
Richie: Yeah, so here the the science I think is really important. and
Exercise, physical exercise, particularly aerobic exercise, is probably the most empirically well-validated non-pharmacological strategy for increasing neuroplasticity. Having said that, neuroplasticity in and of itself is neutral with respect to our well-being. If we increase neuroplasticity and our minds are filled with toxic thoughts and beliefs or we’re in a a really toxic environment, it will actually make things worse because it will improve our learning of those toxic influences by increasing neuroplasticity. And sometimes I have this image, probably this is less the case today, but there was a time
When a lot of people in the US at least went to gyms and they were working out furiously on exercise machines and watching all this crap on television. And it was filling their minds, you know, with all this junk. And at the same time, they were increasing their neuroplasticity. And what a really concerning combination that is. It’s really a prescription for.
negativity. And so the opportunity to combine the exercise induced increase in neuroplasticity with something wholesome and positive and virtuous and intentional for our mind, that’s a winning combination. and I sure
Cort: Can I can I ask you, can I can I ask just to drill a little deeper on that before we move on? I’m curious with the so by increasing neuroplasticity, I think most people are probably familiar with that term, but essentially it’s just saying saying by exercising, it’s a strategy to make your brain more malleable. It’s gonna be more receptive to change, or it will change more easily. Is that a, you know, a simple way to say it?
Richie: Yes, it’ll it’ll change more easily. Th there are specific molecules. For example, a molecule that’s known as BDNF, it stands for brain derived neurotropic factor, and it’s a molecule that promotes increased neuroplasticity in the brain. And increased neuroplasticity is increased malleability of of the brain to form new connections as well as to grow new neurons and BDNF promotes both of those processes and exercise will increase BDNF in the brain.
16:19 Should you meditate during or after exercise?
Cort: So if you with the question I wanted to ask is there’s the the change, say like the capacity, the neuroplastic potential, I guess you could say. How much of that is happening in the session itself, like when you are actively exercising, versus it then is initiated and it’s for some period after, you know, it’s for a few hours or a few days or for for a few weeks. Like, does it carry out over, or is there some potency that’s actually in the session, like when you are actively exercising, that it’s even more enhanced. I I’ve always wondered that and haven’t heard anything.
Richie: I always wonder that too. the the I don’t think the answer is at all definitively known. and in part it’s due to the limitations in studies in humans. And yeah.
Cort: So how you would actually study that? I mean it would be hard to s you
Richie: Exactly how you would measure it. So there may be some things that change immediately, and other factors which are more prolonged over some period of time and what the right sort of combination is. So if you’re doing meditation and exercise, is it better to do them together? Is it better to do one before the other? If you do one before the other, what’s the optimal spacing between the two. We have no idea, absolutely no idea from a a scientific perspective. And, you know, I’ve often talked about the science of contemplative aerobics, but there I mean that’s an aspirational goal. It doesn’t yet exist, but these are the kinds of questions that I think need to be explored.
And we do have more tools today than we’ve ever had before to really begin a serious exploration of this.
Cort: The brain essentially becomes more malleable. You’re putting your own brain in a more receptive, malleable state through exercising, through these neuroplastic capacities that our brains possess. But it’s kind of like if you were taking steroids and then you just sat on your couch eating chips all day. You know, it’s like you’re you’re increasing some capacity for your physical, for physical changes to happen, but then you’re surrounding yourself with toxic influences, obviously.
those changes are not going to be good. and so I’m curious on the other side, is there any evidence that meditation or mental strategies also increase neuroplasticity? Is there any do we have any science on that side?
Richie: There’s a teeny bit.
I I would say a teeny bit. There’s there are a few studies that have found that meditation increases some of the molecules that promote plasticity, like BDNF. But that that really hasn’t been studied at on a large enough scale to be confident in the findings. also BDNF that we can measure in the blood, in the peripheral blood, does not necessarily reflect what’s going on in the brain.
and this is a limitation of human studies.
one of the ways this has been addressed is to look at changes directly in the brain to see if there are increases, for example, in the size of different structures that may be associated with neuroplastic changes. And this will be the subject of another Dharma Lab discussion. but those are also complicated and questionable in terms of what they’re really showing and they’re not immediate. You know, you have to put a person in an MRI scanner at and they’re they’re obviously not going to be exercising while they’re in the MRI scanner. So there are many limitations to existing methods and the work is really at an early stage now.
20:25 Can movement make meditation easier?
Cort: You know, one other thing, w you know, going back to the the benefits. So one of these benefits is clearly these neuroplastic changes and that you’re essentially imbuing or immersing your mind in more positive mental and emotional states when it’s in this more receptive biological capacity. So you’re kind of harnessing your brain’s power and you’re just ensuring that you’re kind of creating the right influences. So those changes that happen are going to be positive versus negative or neutral, which, you know, if you
Or just doom scrolling on your phone all the time, or as you said, watching, you know, news, you know, listening to a news podcast or something. Another thing that I noticed in just in many years, both when I first started meditating and even now, is there’s something about the fact that you’re doing physical activity. oftentimes there’s a change in your surroundings if you’re biking or you’re walking or you’re jogging.
Even if you’re sitting still, like I remember doing yoga, your your physical posture is changing all the time. There’s something about that that just makes sort of the mind kind of naturally is shifting and calming. And I just have found it in a way easier to drop into certain meditative practices compared to just sitting perfectly still for long periods of time. And I think there’s a benefit to sitting still. There’s other benefits that come from that. In some respects, it’s probably because it’s harder.
That some of the benefit comes. You’re just face
Richie: Yes.
Cort: to face with your own mind and there’s no escape hatch. And that that, although it’s hard, is actually probably very beneficial. But I just remember easing into a yoga pose or jogging, and sort of, you know, I’m guessing that the default mode network in my brain is probably also naturally deactivating a little bit. And so it’s almost like it’s just a little bit easier when you link up a meditative practice.
with something like that. I don’t know if there’s my guess is there’s not a lot of science to suggest that, but I’m curious what your thoughts are.
Richie: Yeah, I mean I think it’s interesting. and I certainly have experienced that at times. I also think it’s likely something that varies across individuals. I think there are people who have experiences like your describing, Cort, but I suspect it may be different for other people. I think this is a case where one size really is not likely to fit all.
and also we know, you know, just like there are many, many different kinds of meditation, there are many, many different kinds of sports or physical activity. and so that may be an important variable here as well.
Cort: So the promise of this all is that you basically can train your mind at the exact same time you’re exercising your body. And not only do you get the benefits of each of those individually, there’s at least the potential that there’s a synergistic benefit that’s greater than the sum of the parts. Not to mention the fact that it’s just easier in the sense that you’re you’re already exercising or we want to exercise, and you’re just piggybacking, I think to use a term we often use. You’re piggybacking one wholesome positive activity on another.
Maybe we could round this out just by going back to some of the the how we practice. you mentioned motivation, and that’s something I do as well. It’s my guess is we’re gonna have a lot of similarities in the way we do this, but that idea of forming an altruistic inspiring motivation that’s that kind of makes you think of the greater good and then linking what you’re doing in a way that normally would not happen to what you’re doing. What do you do when you’re biking? Aside from r remembering that from time to time.
What what things come up? Do you do any practices like when you’re just there pedaling away and
24:14 How Richie practices while cycling
Richie: Yeah, it that’s it it’s really interesting. I’ve you know, reflected a lot about that. first it is the case that when I do this intention setting beforehand and set the motivation, it helps in having it naturally and spontaneously recycle as I’m riding The other thing though is that
I ride a road bike. I do like to ride fast and I never ride with with headphones in. You know, I’m I’m riding with my senses totally open. you know, in part it’s for safety. you know, I wanna be I wanna be able to listen if there’s a car coming or you know, I ride on the road a lot because I like to climb hills and and you don’t get that on bike paths. so you know I’m riding with it with my senses really open and
I actually find when I’m riding that I’m just really attentive to what’s going on. And I I don’t have a lot of spontaneous thought. I mean I have some, but I’m really attentive to what’s going on and
You know, my awareness is mostly pretty the aperture is pretty broad, and then it narrows when there are certain things happening. and I’m very aware of sort of the the opening and the constriction of that aperture. So, you know, when I’m when I’m riding on a on a road that is straight and you know in the two miles from my house I’m in beautiful farm country and it’s broad vistas and that’s conducive to this kind of panoramic awareness. but then you know there are times when I have to cross a very busy road and then you know I’m really focused on what’s going on. I my awareness is is contracted
I mean just yesterday I was bike riding and coming back from a a longish ride around 30 miles and I was riding through the University Arboretum on the way back to my house. this was around six o’clock at night, really beautiful time, and there were two deer in the road.
right in the road of the arboretum, a mom and a little baby, and I slow down and and just really took this in
And you know, just had this moment of appreciation that here, you know, are multiple species appreciating this beautiful place and cohabitating together. so all of those things are going on, but it’s really driven by sort of what’s happening right in front of me.
Cort: Hmm.
Richie: Yeah.
27:26 Cort’s practice: Yoga, jogging, and attention
Cort: Yeah,
I’ve I’ve had a very I would say that actually this has been a huge part of my personal practice and even my life as a whole. And it’s changed a lot actually over the years. So when I first started meditating back in the early 1990s, as I said, I was doing yoga. I I wanted to do some kind of physical training. And remember at the time I was debating between doing Aikido, which is a Japanese martial arts or yoga yoga. And yoga was just more convenient to me. There was a yoga place near.
Where I was living, which was in Minneapolis at the time. And at that time, the way I did this was very, very simple, but incredibly helpful and powerful, which is I viewed the physical movements really more as a meditative practice than anything else. I wasn’t really doing it as much for the physical exercise. And I would relax and do a pose. I would do yoga and and still do when I do yoga very, very slowly. I’m not one of these super, you know, flow.
Constantly moving, I would relax into poses. And then I would just rest my awareness on different parts of my body. And that was really it. So it was either just feeling the sensations that were going on. And of course, in yoga, you’re stretching and there’s a lot of strong sensations. I think the fact that they were strong made it easier to meditate because those strong sensations naturally grab attention rather than you’re putting it on something like the neutral, something neutral like the breath where, you know, your mind isn’t naturally going there.
Or in some cases, you’re trying to synchronize your breathing and the movement, in which case it felt like there was a natural, it just felt like very natural and easy to just rest awareness in my body. And that was all I was doing. But if I look at how much of the time of these sessions I was able to stay with that as a conscious practice versus my formal meditation, which were usually about
Mindful breathing, you know, just paying attention to my breath. I think I was much more present and aware during those yoga sessions. So that was kind of how I started out. And I think that was perfect for me at the time. I still do that. It’s still part of what I do. But now I would say actually it’s very different. And I do something very, very specific and intentional, especially when I’m walking or jogging. And I don’t even know where I developed this. but
What I do is I will pick something off in the distance and I’ll just note it. It’ll be, you know, an you know, a street sign or a big tree. It could really could be anything, just something that’s very visible and that’s a suitable level off in the distance. Usually something that would take me a minute or two to get to. And and then I will say, for until I get there, I will do something very specific with my mind. So sometimes
It’s just resting in open, effortless awareness. And I’m just in this very expansive state. And I’ll just jog. And it’s hard to even describe this, but when you do that, I’m sure you have it with biking. It’s like you’re jogging in space or something. I mean, it’s like you just have this very open, expansive view. Sometimes I’ll then, you know, I get to that tree and then I’ll reboot and I’ll pick another thing off in the distance. And then I’ll say, okay, now I’m in my body and I’ll just feel my feet hitting the ground or you know, the feeling of my breath. So I’ll actually cycle in no really predetermined way through all sorts of different practices. But the one thing that I always do is it’s shifting from some kind of light focus, where it’s on my body or the sounds around me or what I’m seeing, to something that’s very effortless and more open and expansive. And I’ll kind of sort of go in and out of that.
And then at a certain point, sometimes my mind just feels like it’s in this flow. And then sometimes I might just drop that for a while and it’s I’m just doing my thing. But I find that intentionality and kind of rebooting it versus I’m just gonna practice for an hour or half an hour or however long I’m exercising. The rebooting of it and shifting shifting of it actually for me I found really helpful. And it’s just interesting. It keeps it kind of like a light, playful thing. So, anyways, that’s how I.
currently practice in addition to the motivation piece that I also do of setting that that intention and coming back to that throughout.
Richie: Yeah, I mean it’s very similar to my experience ‘cause it for me the shifting of the aperture is something that I you know, I I play with and it’s it varies over you know, over time. so within if I’m riding my bike for, you know, an hour and a half, I’ll do that a lot over the course of
The hour and a half period.
32:12 Interval training for the mind
Cort: Actually, a great strategy I’ve found for many activities. I do it driving, for example. I mean, right now, as you know, Richie, I’m I’m up in the boundary waters of northern Minnesota. So I drive seven hours to get here. You can do it with driving. Like I’ll pick a street, like a sign way off in the distance, and then do the same thing. I’ve also found even if you’re watching a movie or TV, I do it sometimes with the edits. Like you have a scene where they they they will have a cut and just like, I’ll
So though usually we don’t notice those edits, but they’re actually a great little reboot for the mind. So I do it that way. even reading, you know, reading like a page or you know, a certain amount. So, anyways, those like little transitions I found are like great little entry points where it’s just like a reminder to come back to whatever. And then everything becomes practice as we talk about everywhere all the time. Anything anything can work. Exactly. I mean it is. Actually, I’ve I’ve had that thought.
Richie: Right. It’s like interval training for the mind. Yeah. Yeah.
Cort: So many times. I bet you anything, if you had an interval training paradigm for meditation, I bet you anything that would be more effective than like a just sit down for 20 minutes and try to be mindful of your breath. I’ve I’ve that has been in my mind forever. In fact, we should let’s note that. Let’s let’s do that study. That would be so cool.
Richie: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. I agree. Okay.
33:32 What the research tells us so far
Cort: So we’re I think maybe we can close it out here. We didn’t really talk about any of the actual research that has happened. And there is an emerging field of research specifically on this. Anything you want to say about that, just as a one of the frontiers of this whole field that we’re involved with?
Richie: Yeah,
I mean first it’s important to note that there is a little bit of research, but it really is quite little. there are a few studies that have explored the potential synergistic effect of exercise plus meditation, in producing beneficial outcomes. And the you know, the general finding is that there is some added benefit. So that if you look at both together, it’s better than either alone. But the the the research is pretty skimpy and it uses very small sample sizes and as we know
This has been a big problem in meditation research in general. And so I think the jury is still out. And as we discussed earlier, there are many fundamental questions that have yet to be seriously tackled in this kind of research. So I think, you know, one of the great things is that there are many more people paying attention to this, and over the next few years, I’m confident there’ll be more.
serious evidence in the scientific literature.
Cort: Yeah, it’s very exciting. And and for I think many of you listening have probably used the Healthy Minds app. And so you’ll know that all the the many practices you can do as an active practice as well as a sitting meditation. And this is yet another Dharma lab episode that we need to do, but there’s a lot of emerging research that those active practices are just as beneficial as at least at the early stages as formal sitting meditation. So this is clearly one one powerful way that you can do that. So
I have a feeling, Richie, we are gonna talk about this again. It’s something we’re both interested in and obviously things we do ourselves. so thank you everyone for tuning in and thank you, Richie, again for another wonderful discussion. So we’ll see you all in the next episode of Dharma Lab.
Richie: Thank you.


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In this episode of Dharma Lab, Cortland Dahl and Richard Davidson unpack the difference between experiential fusion, being so absorbed in an experience that awareness narrows, and meta-awareness, the capacity to know what your mind is doing while you’re doing it. They explore why activities like movies, video games, rock climbing, Sudoku, and even doomscrolling can feel good in the moment, how they temporarily suppress the brain’s default mode, and why that does not necessarily translate into lasting change. They also discuss whether meta-awareness actually adds something to positive experiences, how it may increase cognitive and emotional flexibility, and a few simple ways to practice it in everyday life. Enjoy!
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In This Episode:
00:00 Intro: Is It Good to Be Lost?01:17 Experiential Fusion vs. Meta-Awareness02:29 What Is Experiential Fusion?04:55 What Is Meta-Awareness?06:45 Why Being “Lost” Can Feel Good09:09 The Default Mode Network and Temporary Relief11:34 What Meta-Awareness Adds13:21 Flexibility, Attention, and the Ability to Disengage14:17 Responding Instead of Reacting16:53 Can Startle Reveal Meta-Awareness?19:39 Ancient Meditation Instructions for Meta-Awareness21:11 How to Practice Meta-Awareness in Daily Life
Written transcript for those who prefer to read:
00:00 Intro: Is It Good to Be Lost?
Cort: We don’t like to ruminate. It’s a deeply unpleasant experience. But isn’t it good to be lost? What’s the problem with being absorbed in a good book or a movie? And would it be better if we had meta-awareness? Does that add anything in a moment like that?
Richie: My view of this is that it feels transiently good. In the movie theater or doing Sudoku, when it ends, we go back to our neurotic self and the default mode of the brain comes roaring back. And so it’s a transient state. Meta-awareness is very helpful, I think, in disengaging our attention and enabling us to be flexible.
01:17 Experiential Fusion vs. Meta-Awareness
Cort: Welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl. I’m here with eminent neuroscientist, And we wanted to talk today about a really important question that you and no one else has ever asked, which is what is the difference between meta awareness and experiential fusion? And I guarantee that although you have not asked that question and probably nobody has ever asked that question, it is one of the most important questions you could ask because it has massive implications for mental health, for emotional well-being, and even for physical health. So these are two terms that we use a lot in our research. We publish papers that are defining these and have been exploring ways to measure them, but they’re just very central to a lot of the work that we do on human flourishing. So why don’t we just start off with, I think, the one that most of us are more familiar with, Richie, and maybe you can... Give some practical examples and share your own insights on this, but that would be experiential fusion. This is, I think, where a lot of us live our lives. So what is this and why should people care? Why is this so important?
02:29 What Is Experiential Fusion?
Richie: Yeah, so experiential fusion is a term that we came up with in a paper we wrote a number of years ago together, and it’s a term that’s used to convey the idea that we can get totally absorbed in an activity that we lose awareness We often call this a flow experience, but we are so completely immersed in the experience that we are no longer aware of our context. So one example of this would be going to a movie and being so engrossed in the movie that you no longer aware that you’re in a movie theater. And in many cases, you’re no longer aware that you’re actually watching a movie. You’re so engrossed in the plot that you’re just in the middle of this plot. That’s experiential fusion.
Cort: And it’s an interesting thing because it can be absorbed in an activity like movie theater example is perfect, a perfect example. You know, reading a really good novel or playing video games can be very absorbing. I think a very common one these days is doom scrolling. You’re just kind of totally caught up in this activity. So experiential fusion can be lost in thoughts, right? It can also be rumination where you’re just lost in your own thoughts. But the interesting thing about these examples, the movie theater example, doom scrolling, playing a video game, actually you’re attentive. It’s not as though you You’re distracted in that moment. In fact, you might be very, very focused on what you’re doing, but it’s as though the light of awareness dims a bit. It’s almost your attention is narrowed into whatever you’re doing and you’re absorbed in it and there’s a feeling of being lost in it. And I think the contrast is when there’s this feeling of almost like you’ve woken up from that. And it does almost feel like you’re waking up when you shift out of that state of absorption. So maybe we could just give the contrast now. So this is experiential fusion, which again, can be everything from you’re daydreaming, you’re ruminating, you’re lost in thoughts, or you’re absorbed in some engrossing activities. We gave these examples, but what’s the alternative? And then we can maybe compare and contrast the two.
04:55 What Is Meta-Awareness?
Richie: Yeah, so the alternative is meta-awareness, and meta-awareness refers to the capacity to know what our minds are doing. And to go back to the movie theater example, how would meta-awareness show up in a movie theater? Well, you might be totally attentive to the movie, completely undistracted, but you’re aware that you’re sitting in a theater, you’re kind of aware in the background. You can think of it as the Penumbra of awareness, the sort of edges of awareness. But you’re aware that you’re sitting in a movie theater, you’re aware that you’re watching a movie, but you’re also completely attentive. There’s no distraction. And that would be an example of meta-awareness. And so as it would apply to everyday life, you can be in a conversation with someone you know well, Be totally in the groove with them, be deep in conversation, but not be lost in the conversation. You can be aware that you’re sitting here, you may have just had breakfast together, and it’s Tuesday, and we’re having this conversation. So that That background is really supplied, if you will, by meta-awareness. Meta-awareness is this faculty of knowing what our minds are doing. And we think, for many different reasons, that meta-awareness is really key to being able to transform your mind. And one of the things I often say is that it’s very difficult to transform our mind if we’re not aware of what’s happening in our mind.
06:45 Why Being “Lost” Can Feel Good
Cort: So when it comes to experiential fusion, as we said, there’s a spectrum there, right? It can be being engrossed in a good book or a movie, or it could even be a conversation with a friend. You’re just totally absorbed in the moment. To the point that you kind of lose touch with everything else other than, you know, the narrow band of what you’re doing. And then on the other end of the spectrum is rumination, being lost in thoughts. I think most people would say obviously rumination is no fun. We don’t like to ruminate. It’s a deeply unpleasant experience. But isn’t it good to be lost? What’s the problem with being absorbed in a good book or a movie? And would it be better if we had meta-awareness? Does that add anything in a moment like that? When we’re reactive or ruminating, clearly we want some meta-awareness, but why would we want it in these other moments? Yeah.
Richie: So those are great questions. And I should just also add that You know, I think we need to ask ourselves the question, why is it that activities that produce this kind of experiential fusion, like going to the movie theater or, you know, some more extreme examples are where flow has been studied. For example, with rock climbers where they’re putting themselves in situations where if there is a lapse in attention, it could potentially be lethal. And they’re doing this voluntarily. And so why do people do these things voluntarily to put themselves in these situations where You know, at least we think most of the time, most people are in this state of experiential fusion. And so my view of this is that it feels transiently good to be in these states of experiential fusion. There are other kinds of states of experiential fusion That are very common as well. So for example, doing crossword puzzles, doing Sudoku, where you’re totally absorbed in an activity that is kind of neutral, is very popular. And so again, I think we need to ask the question, why is that attractive? Why do people voluntarily do that sort of thing?
09:09 The Default Mode Network and Temporary Relief
Richie: The reason is, I think, is because it transiently suppresses the default mode. So what does this mean? Well, we know that the default mode is active when our minds are wandering and when we’re ruminating. And just to be clear, the default mode is a network in the brain. This is like a constellation of brain regions, if you haven’t heard that phrase. Yeah, thank you, Cort. So this kind of activity is really effective in just transiently putting the brakes on this. And so for the time that we’re engaged in the activity, we’re not ruminating. And these kinds of thoughts are blocked, if you will, for the most part. But the thing is, when we stop whatever it is that activity might be, whether we’re rock climbing, In the movie theater or doing Sudoku, when it ends, we go back to our neurotic self and the default mode of the brain comes roaring back. And so it’s a transient state which does not lead to an altered trait to the best of our knowledge. But that’s why it’s experienced as pleasurable.
Cort: So that highlights one of the reasons why even though watching a movie, rock climbing, certain activities are pleasurable and pleasant in part because they’re deactivating the ruminating mind. It’s the part of ourselves that we don’t like to sit with. If you just sit alone in a room doing nothing, if you’re like most people, you’re just going to start thinking. And oftentimes the thoughts that are moving through our minds are not particularly pleasant. So if you can deactivate that, then it feels better than the alternative. But the point you’re making here, Richie, is that although that’s true, and it is a little vacation for
11:34 What Meta-Awareness Adds
Cort: You haven’t developed the ability to manage that yourself. You’ve basically put yourself in a context that is managing it for you. And I think this points to the other side of the question, which is, what does meta-awareness add to these moments? So even if you’re watching the movie and you might say... It feels good to be absorbed. I enjoy that. Why would you want to cultivate meta-awareness, generally speaking? I think it’s for this exact reason. It does two things. One, in my experience, it doesn’t inhibit the pleasant aspects of whatever you’re doing, if you are in one of those positive circumstances. So actually, you enjoy the movie more. It’s not like you enjoy it less. In fact, it’s like you’re aware of a wider spectrum of So if it’s something beautiful, it’s almost like you can appreciate the beauty even more in my experience. So it doesn’t inhibit the enjoyable features, but it brings on the capacity that you are in the driver’s seat of this experience. It’s not just the environment and the context that’s doing it for you. You consciously can do it. You intentionally can do it. And so to me, it’s like a win-win. It both feels good. It helps in a negative situation or a challenging situation. It enhances positive or even neutral situations. And it just puts you in the driver’s seat of your own mind. Is that safe to say? Is that your experience?
Richie: Yeah, I mean, that certainly consists with my experience. But the question you’re asking is a great question. And I don’t really think that we have the adequate scientific evidence to sort of definitively And so I think there’s still work to be done to explore what is the added value of meta-awareness in these situations.
13:21 Flexibility, Attention, and the Ability to Disengage
Richie: I think primarily the added value really is in And, you know, meta-awareness also is very helpful, I think, in disengaging our attention and enabling us to be flexible. And flexibility, both emotionally and cognitively, is an important marker of our skills at cultivating meta-awareness, I think. And so it’s often the case that when we get sort of really intensely focused on an activity, it’s sometimes hard to disengage if we need to do something else. Meta-awareness, I think, will provide the underlying foundation for being able to flexibly shift among various alternatives in our behavior.
14:17 Responding Instead of Reacting
Cort: And, you know, one of the things that I’ve noticed just as an example of that, I mean, meta-awareness by definition, as you said earlier, Richie, is you just know what’s happening in the present moment. You know what’s happening in your mind. You know what’s happening in your body even. You’re more attuned to what’s going on in your environment. And I remember an example of this that I’ll never forget just because the circumstances were so strange. You might have been in the room too when this happened, Richie. I was leading a guided meditation at a retreat that Mingyu Rinpoche was leading. I was kind of doing the guided meditation sessions and it was in Madison. And I was leading this meditation and Jon Kabat-Zinn was there, who’s a friend of ours, a very old friend of yours, Richie, and he was in the front row. And I’ll always remember this just because I was leading a guided meditation to Jon Kabat-Zinn, which is just, it was just like an odd experience. He’s like the godfather of mindfulness and I’ve listened to his meditations a million times. So it was just kind of strange and ironic to be leading a guided meditation. But what happened was behind me, there was like this huge kind of What do you even call it? Like a banner type thing. It was right behind me and it fell down in the middle of the guided meditation and it was literally right behind me and it came like crashing down. And it just so happens that in this guided meditation, I think we were, it was something like I, when that happened, I had this I remember just not flinching because I was totally aware like the moment the sound started happening and then my body and normally, you know, you jump up or something. And it was just very interesting to see just to see the very different reaction in my mind and body just from being in this very meta aware state. Like it gave me some capacity. Of course, if it had something I needed to run out of the room or, you know, there was some real danger, I could have done that. But it was clear that just something had fallen. And I didn’t even know what it was at the time. It wasn’t until later when I looked back and was like, oh, that was that big thing. But it was just interesting to me, just the circumstances because of that. I think I’ll never forget that. But it just shows it just gives you a capacity to notice your own reactions and to respond rather than react when you need to. And when you need to react like that, you can. But a lot of times we don’t need to react like that. And a more thoughtful response is much healthier.
16:53 Can Startle Reveal Meta-Awareness?
Richie: You know, it’s a great example. And, you know, I also think you’re pointing toward a way to potentially differentiate between experiential fusion and meta-awareness, because I would expect that in experiential fusion, you would show a startle response. Well, for sure, you would show a stronger startle response. Yeah.
Cort: And maybe just explain, because this is a scientific measurement that, you know, is used commonly. Could you just explain, like, how you measure that? Like, what is a scientific measurement tool?
Richie: Yeah, so, I mean, startle is something that we show in response to an event that, you know, is often loud or intense in whatever domain it’s in. In the auditory domain, it’s a sound that has a very fast rise time, you know, so it doesn’t slowly ramp up, but it ramps up immediately. And that rise time is really what Triggers the startle and you know we can show startle in even just limited parts of our bodies so one of the ways it’s measured in experimental research is just with the eye blink and so if I did that you know many viewers might just blink their eyes or just show a little bit of something and we can harness that as a measurement tool and actually measure the strength of the eye blink with It measures the muscle around the eye called the orbicularis oculi muscle. And so it turns out that it provides a really useful readout of systems that are important in this regard. And so, you know, in the case of experiential fusion, because it’s more difficult to disengage attention and there’s less flexibility, if there were this loud sound made by the banner falling, it would much more likely elicit a startle response. Whereas if your awareness is really, if the aperture is really big, it would include Whatever is happening in your sensory domains. And so, you know, if there’s a loud sound, there’s a loud sound, but you’re not going to show the same kind of startle because you’re not disengaging your attention from something and allocating to something else. Your attention is already engaged.
Cort: That was it. My attention was wide enough that all that stuff, I was hyper aware of everything that happened. Right. But it wasn’t, you know, locked in here. And then it suddenly had to shift to, you know, to something else. Yeah, it was very interesting.
19:39 Ancient Meditation Instructions for Meta-Awareness
Cort: So it just reminds me, maybe as a final thought on this, some of the most classic teachings from the Buddhist tradition, if you go back to the Buddhist sutras, which are the actual recordings of what the Buddha is said to have taught, there are these lines that are basically meditation instructions. They’re the most boring thing you could ever read. But as meditation instructions, they’re very powerful. And they’re basically meta awareness instructions. So it’ll say things like breathing in a long breath. I know that I am breathing in a long breath. And you just go through all these long lists of all the conceivable things that could be happening in your body and mind. And it’s just, and I know that that’s happening as it happens. And I know that that’s happening. And this is basically him essentially guiding people in meditation. Just know what’s happening in your mind as it’s happening. Know what’s happening in your body as it’s happening. And that’s meta-awareness. And he basically was teaching them meta-awareness as one of the most foundational skills for the entire meditative path. I mean, this goes back thousands of years. It’s really quite interesting.
21:11 How to Practice Meta-Awareness in Daily Life
Cort: Well, that’s great. So any, you wanna close with maybe a final tip, like things you do, maybe we could each just share a way we put this into practice in our own lives. Is there anything that you do that you find helpful to connect with meta-awareness and shift out of experiential fusion?
Richie: Yeah, sure. I mean, for me, I go back to this very frequently, many times a day, just in the course of my everyday life, taking it off the cushion, so to speak. And so, you know, one opportunity to do that is whenever you’re waiting on a line for something, you know, often our attention gets constricted, you know, we’ll Dr. Davidson, Can smile at them, do a little loving kindness for them, just open it up. And, you know, I find myself doing that many times a day in situations just really explicitly widening it as a way to sort of touch in with meta awareness.
Cort: That’s so helpful. Yeah, I do a lot of that as well. Another thing that I do, I’ve mentioned this on other Dharma Lab episodes, I think probably because it was one of my starting practices, it’s still one of my go-to practices. And I think for me, one of the best triggers for meta-awareness is Which is really to feel what’s going on in my body. And sometimes it’ll be very simple. I’ll start with something very obvious, like the feeling of my feet on the ground and just feel that for a few moments. And sometimes from there, a little awareness through my body. Usually I’ll notice, you know, sometimes I’ll notice a little bit of tension in my shoulders and they’ll relax a bit or some tension in my jaws. I just naturally feel like my body just opens and relaxes a little bit. Which is always interesting to me after more than 30 years of doing this, that the body is just holding a lot of tension all the time. And awareness itself has this relaxing quality. So just the fuel, what I’m feeling in my body for me is just a very simple kind of anytime, anywhere, everywhere, all the time kind of practice. So that’s one of my go-to practices. So Both of those are great experimentation points. Those of you listening, if you haven’t tried these, I’m sure you have yours as well. If you have your own practices that spark meta-awareness for you, we’d love to hear about it. So maybe you could mention in the comments or share the practices and insights you’ve had. But in any case, great conversation, Richie. Thank you not only for sharing your insights, but for all the research you’ve done on this. You’ve been the pioneering researcher in this area. And I imagine we’re going to have many, many more conversations about meta-awareness and experiential fusion. So stay tuned to future episodes of Dharma Lab if you found this helpful. So take care.


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How much of what we experience comes from the world itself, and how much comes from our expectations about it? In our latest AMA, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl explore how the brain constructs perception, why the gap between reality and expectation can amplify suffering, and what changes when we begin to notice that process as it happens. We had a few moments of technical issues with frozen screens or background noise, but they don’t last long.
What’s inside
* Why your brain constructs reality the way it builds a dream
* Why controlling the mind backfires
* TMS: is it cheating?
* Why open awareness loosens pain
* The neuroscience of grief and regret
* A 2-minute guided practice (free, led by Cort)
* A preview of our upcoming November summit
* The full hour mapped below, plus the flashcards and the recording for paid members
Companion Flashcards At Bottom
Your brain builds reality like a dream
A listener named Linda asked about acceptance, and about the idea, drawn from Anil Seth and Lisa Feldman Barrett, that reality is a construction of the mind. Cort answered first, and reframed where suffering actually comes from.
It’s actually the gap between reality and our expectations of what should be happening. However big that gap is, that’s like the size of suffering in that moment.
—Cortland Dahl

Cort was clear it is not erasing expectations. It is seeing that they are there and that they are out of step with what is happening, bringing them into the light of conscious experience rather than letting them run under the hood.
Then Richie discussed how the brain networks that build our beliefs and expectations are the very networks through which we perceive. He used the dream as proof.
Just as in a dream, we can feel those emotions in our body, and there are documented changes in our heart rate and breathing, and yet there’s nothing out there. It’s all in our mind. It turns out that’s actually the way it works with the real world. That’s how our brains construct reality.
—Richard Davidson

His image for the practice came from Mingyur Rinpoche: caught in the middle of a river, you are swept along by the turbulent flow. Become aware of the thoughts and expectations driving your perception, and it is more like sitting on the bank, watching the water move without being pulled in. Cort added a pointer for anyone who wants the science firsthand, calling Anil Seth’s TED talk one of the best he has seen.
The picnic and the four police officers
Victoria asked why open awareness loosens physical pain. Richie described what his lab calls “stickiness,” the attachment or aversion that makes an emotion reverberate long after the thing that caused it is gone. In open awareness, the reverberation drops away.
In some of our own research, the response in sensory regions is actually larger when you’re doing open awareness. It’s not diminished. But there’s no reverberation. It happens and comes back to baseline. We’re not creating emotional zombies.—Richard Davidson

That fast return to baseline, he said, is a neural signature of resilience. Cort then told a story from the Tibetan tradition that ties to this. Imagine you drive to a park for a picnic, thrilled to be there. Then four police officers walk up and tell you that you are ordered to stay in this park all day, that they will block you if you try to leave.
Even though you wanted to go there in the first place, suddenly everybody’s trying to think how they can get out. Life does not like to be constrained and controlled in any way.—Cortland Dahl

The mind works the same way. The harder we clamp down on a feeling, the more it strains to escape. Open awareness runs the other direction. Cort called it a practice of trust, close to the opposite of control.
FREE · 2-MINUTE PRACTICE LED BY CORT
2-minute practice:
Wherever you are, settle into a comfortable posture. Let your eyes stay gently open or close them. Take a few moments to simply feel the breath moving in and out of the body. Notice the sounds around you, or the silence. Then open the heart a little by bringing to mind the many challenges in the world right now, the suffering so many are carrying, and form a quiet intention: that whatever good comes from your practice might ripple outward and ease the suffering of others. Rest there for a few breaths, then carry that motivation into whatever comes next.

The full hour, mapped
Read the gist below, then drop into the recording at any timestamp.
03:46 — “Grandpa!” and the end of the sitting.
Twelve minutes into an early-morning practice, Richie’s two-and-a-half-year-old grandson opened the door. He let the formal session go and kept practicing as grandpa. Anywhere, anytime meditation; everywhere, all the time.
08:32 — Active practice is as powerful as the cushion.
The Healthy Minds research finds the benefit of active practices comparable to formal sitting. Cort put his son down for nearly every nap for three years and came to see those as the real practice.
09:59 — Acceptance and the gap.
Suffering tracks the gap between reality and our expectations. The shift is not dropping expectations but seeing them clearly.
13:54 — Your brain constructs reality like a dream.
Anil Seth, Lisa Feldman Barrett, and the river metaphor. Perception is built by the same networks that build belief.
17:40 — So how do we share a reality at all?
Rob from Toronto asks about controlled hallucination and shared social realities. Richie on entrainment, cooperation, and why it remains “a shared illusion of a sort”.”
20:18 — Why open awareness loosens pain.
Stickiness, reverberation, and the larger-but-faster response that marks resilience. We are not creating emotional zombies.
27:00 — The picnic and the four police officers.
Why control backfires in a park, in a relationship, and in the mind. Open awareness as trust.
29:40 — TMS and the urge to hack the mind.
TMS stands for “transcranial magnetic stimulation”, and Richie explains that TMS belongs to a broader family of methods designed to modulate brain function relatively non-invasively. There is growing interest in whether these tools could affect meditation, but he emphasizes that we do not yet know whether they meaningfully support practice. The Center for Healthy Minds has also been exploring neuromodulation and meditation more broadly. Cort shares about neuromodulation as one more entry point into an interdependent system.
37:37 — Where does awareness live in the brain?
Edith’s question. Visual cortex, anterior cingulate, and the honest answer: no single location, no single switch
40:24 — The unresponsive who were actually aware.
Melanie Boly’s work: patients thought to be vegetative held more awareness than we credited, unable to communicate it. A communication problem, not an awareness problem.
45:18 — The neuroscience of grief that doesn’t fade.
Amygdala and hippocampus jammed together, and reconsolidation: a memory is a reconstruction that changes each time it is recalled, not a photograph.
51:20 — When grief opened into gratitude.Cort on his father’s sudden death four years ago, holding the feeling fully in the body, and the sadness opening, unbidden, into gratitude.
57:38 — A free November summit.A free online gathering through ServiceSpace this November, with Sharon Salzberg, Jud Brewer, Robert Sapolsky, Martin Picard, Mingyur Rinpoche, and Laurie Santos.
November 2026 Free Online Summit with Legends of Neuroscience and Practice

Dharma Lab’s First Guided Meditation Hour
In Dharma Lab’s first guided practice hour, Dr. Cortland Dahl and Dr. Richard Davidson took us from talking about wellbeing to actually practicing it. Drawing on the Healthy Minds framework of awareness, connection, insight, and purpose, shaped through years of research and practice connected with the Center for Healthy Minds at the University of Wisconsin–Madison and Humin (formerly Healthy Minds Innovations), they led participants through four short practices designed to make each capacity directly experiential. The session explored a central idea running through their work: meditation is less about fixing ourselves than learning to recognize and cultivate qualities of wellbeing that are already present.
Keep Practicing — Upcoming Events
If you’d like to continue exploring these practices, the free Healthy Minds Program App offers guided practices and learning across awareness, connection, insight, and purpose, with Cortland Dahl, Richard Davidson, and other teachers.
Our next “Ask Me Anything”with Richie and Cort is live on Tuesday, August 25th, 8pm ET. Please send us questions in advance by replying to this email or dropping a comment.
We have an exciting lineup of guest speakers for a free online summit in November to explore the restless mind. More details to come, but check out initial info at the bottom of this email and registration details here. Please share widely!
Thank you for your support and we hope to see you at these future events.
—The Dharma Lab Team


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